Are you a Christian?

[stockdam]

No one suggesting that NI terrorists are pillars of the christian faith but they do what they do in the name of religion.

No they do not do anything in the name of religion. That's pure nonsense.

 

[stockdam]

Its been repeatedly made clear to Stockdam that were not discussing a religious conflict, but that members of both sides don't adhere to the teachings of their faith.

But that doesn't matter, stocky has pulled us down an avenue which wasn't even in discussion. Maybe he should have read a few posts before the one which sent him ranting.

My comments were about your statements.......

Christianity is disunited and they're killing each other. You don't believe what their version of the bible teaches do you.

You have Catholics and Protestants killing each other in Northern Ireland, do you think God approves?

That's pretty black and white.

And we also have a quote above that the killings were done in the "name of religion".

 

[Subbynet]

My comments were about your statements.......



That's pretty black and white.

And we also have a quote above that the killings were done in the "name of religion".

Its also true. I have already given you many links showing the deaths of Catholics and Protestants, a large percentage of which will be at the hands of others brought up in the Catholic or Protestant faith.

The reason you have a problem with that statement is you've focused on it instead of reading it as a discussion (between me and DCE) in which that particular post was not the start of the debate.

But hey, don't let that take you stocky, jump in and take over with what you want to say.

 

[stockdam]

Its also true. I have already given you many links showing the deaths of Catholics and Protestants, a large percentage of which will be at the hands of others brought up in the Catholic or Protestant faith.

The reason you have a problem with that statement is you've focused on it instead of reading it as a discussion (between me and DCE) in which that particular post was not the start of the debate.

But hey, don't let that take you stocky, jump in and take over with what you want to say.

So it's now "brought up in the Catholic faith"........many atheists are brought up in the Catholic faith but that doesn't make them Catholic. So a religious person is somebody who has been exposed to religion at some stage in their life? That's stretching the definition of Catholic to the extreme to defend a statement that was wrong. If you make statements like that to try to link religion to killing innocent people in Northern Ireland then I'll jump in and correct you.

So should I assume that when you say Catholic you really mean somebody, including atheists, who were exposed to the the Catholic faith?

Carry on with your debate with DCE. This is an open forum and not structured. Maybe you should get a private room somewhere.

 

[Subbynet]

So it's now "brought up in the Catholic faith"........many atheists are brought up in the Catholic faith but that doesn't make them Catholic.

I've said it many ways Stocky... You appear to have a hard time understanding.

Brought up - as in, they ultimately still have a belief in God. Take that as you will. In fact, think of it like yourself - someone who says they believe in God, but don't act in the manner you'd expect. I bet you'd still like a church service when dead.

So a religious person is somebody who has been exposed to religion at some stage in their life?

Its someone that ultimately has a belief in God. Anyone who has dismissed the silly notion is obviously not of a religious persuasion.

That's stretching the definition of Catholic to the extreme to defend a statement that was wrong.

If that was what I'm saying I'd agree - but you appear to be asking and answering questions all by yourself.

If you make statements like that to try to link religion to killing innocent people in Northern Ireland then I'll jump in and correct you.

Feel free any time you can... You appear to be having issues doing so.

So should I assume that when you say Catholic you really mean somebody, including atheists, who were exposed to the the Catholic faith?

No, sorry... That's stupid. Atheists are obviously not Catholics. These are people who would ultimately believe in God (The Christian idea of God).

Carry on with your debate with DCE. This is an open forum and not structured. Maybe you should get a private room somewhere.

It is structured Stocky, start at post 1 to the end.. If you read it like that you'll have less problems.

 

[LicensedToTrade]

decades of disagreement on what is what in NI aren't likely to be agreed upon on UKBF so maybe put this one to bed. God help us all (no pun intended) if this ranks highly on google and we get the whole NI debating mob joining in with their three coloured fonts! Nobody can ruin a forum like they can

 

[stockdam]

I've said it many ways Stocky... You appear to have a hard time understanding.

Brought up - as in, they ultimately still have a belief in God. Take that as you will. In fact, think of it like yourself - someone who says they believe in God, but don't act in the manner you'd expect. I bet you'd still like a church service when dead.

So even though the people themselves say that they are not religious and that religion plays no part in their lives you persist is saying that they believe in God.

It's not my understanding that is wrong but yours. The vast majority of the members of the IRA/UDA etc. have no religious belief whatsoever and were not killing innocent people in the name of God. If you want to believe that nonsense then it appears that nobody will make you understand.

 

[Subbynet]

So even though the people themselves say that they are not religious and that religion plays no part in their lives you persist is saying that they believe in God.

The evidence doesn't support this conclusion. Plus, you've not actually found anything which has said this.

It's not my understanding that is wrong but yours. The vast majority of the members of the IRA/UDA etc. have no religious belief whatsoever and were not killing innocent people in the name of God. If you want to believe that nonsense then it appears that nobody will make you understand.

No, it is your understanding that's wrong, its REPEATEDLY (God knows how many times now! ) been said to that they didn't do it in the name of God or that this is a "religious war", but that religious divides are a factor and that many ignore the teachings they're brought up with.

Its simple enough stocky...

 

I'm sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but coming from NI, I have to disagree.

There is and was a definite religious connotation to all events in the 'troubles', whether we like it or not.

Protestants and Catholics were and are both guilty of religious bigotry and using their religion as an excuse to carry out atrocities.

In no way should any religion permit these people to still be a part of their church, but in NI's case they do.

If you look at some of the main 'motto's' of these paramilitary groups, they mention God in the same sentence as Ulster, so they definitely believe God is on their side.

If you read the IRA handbook from years ago which was published not long ago by a journalist, it clearly makes numerous references to the 'religious' aspect, and expects their members to adhere to their religions teachings.

There have been many people beaten or killed purely because of the religion they were born into.

Obviouisly to call all the perpetrators 'athiests' is completely wrong, because however misguided they may be, they believe they have god on their side. An athiest cannot be someone you deem as not religious enough, and athiest has to be someone who has no belief in god themselves.

Yes Stockie has an argument that there was much more to the troubles than the Protestant/Catholic division, the 'politics' shoulder most of the responsibility - but there were definitely divisions and actions based purely upon religion (though I cannot for the life of me see any bible which teaches this is ok).

 

[stockdam]

Obviouisly to call all the perpetrators 'athiests' is completely wrong, because however misguided they may be, they believe they have god on their side. An athiest cannot be someone you deem as not religious enough, and athiest has to be someone who has no belief in god themselves.

Yes Stockie has an argument that there was much more to the troubles than the Protestant/Catholic division, the 'politics' shoulder most of the responsibility - but there were definitely divisions and actions based purely upon religion (though I cannot for the life of me see any bible which teaches this is ok).

I take it that you are referring to the UDA's motto...."For God and Ulster". I've known a few of these guys and although they can quote the motto they certainly do not believe in God. What they say and what they believe in are two completely different things. I don't think Johnny Adair would proclaim to be a Christian. There's a big difference between stating that "God is on our side" and actually believing in God. It is odd that an organisation that doesn't have any belief in the Bible can claim God being on their side. I would call these guys protestant with a small p as they are not religious nor do they proclaim any believe in Jesus. Many people who "are born again" leave the UDA.

Are you talking about the Green Book? If so then I didn't think there was any mention of religion in it. There's talk about military tactics and politics but does it mention religion (sorry I'm not an expert on terrorist books).

My point was that it wasn't Protestants and Catholics killing each other but it was a conflict between Nationalist/Republicans and Unionists/Loyalists and to say that the people doing the killing were religious does not agree with my experience. There's a big difference between calling yourself a Christian and proclaiming that God is on your side (and often not even understanding the difference between Ulster and Northern Ireland).

 

[Subbynet]

I take it that you are referring to the UDA's motto...."For God and Ulster". I've known a few of these guys and although they can quote the motto they certainly do not believe in God.

What they say and what they believe in are two completely different things.

Hypocrisy a virtue of believers...

I don't think Johnny Adair would proclaim to be a Christian. There's a big difference between stating that "God is on our side" and actually believing in God.

There's an even bigger difference between the IRA/UDA and Johnny Adair. He is but one man.

It is odd that an organisation that doesn't have any belief in the Bible can claim God being on their side. I would call these guys protestant with a small p as they are not religious nor do they proclaim any believe in Jesus. Many people who "are born again" leave the UDA.

Except for the fact your mate Steve Bruce states in the book you referred too earlier that they used a Bible when administering membership oaths.

(Its about 3-4 lines down from your quote)

My point was that it wasn't Protestants and Catholics killing each other but it was a conflict between Nationalist/Republicans and Unionists/Loyalists and to say that the people doing the killing were religious does not agree with my experience. There's a big difference between calling yourself a Christian and proclaiming that God is on your side (and often not even understanding the difference between Ulster and Northern Ireland).

The evidence says its more than you're claiming it is.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6364252.ece

A Catholic community worker was beaten to death by men shouting that they were members of the Ulster Defence Association, his widow said today.

Evelyn McDaid, a Protestant who suffered serious head injuries when she tried to save her husband Kevin,spoke as police questioned nine men over the killing.

“UDA, they called themselves the UDA. I went across to help him and they beat me while they beat him,” she said.

“My neighbour had to step in to save me and she was pregnant and they beat her too and she shouted ‘I’m pregnant’ and they didn’t care.”

She added: “It was all to do with religion, and I’m not even a Catholic. I am a Protestant, it’s a mixed marriage, but they just seem to hate us so much.”

 

I take it that you are referring to the UDA's motto...."For God and Ulster". I've known a few of these guys and although they can quote the motto they certainly do not believe in God. What they say and what they believe in are two completely different things. I don't think Johnny Adair would proclaim to be a Christian. There's a big difference between stating that "God is on our side" and actually believing in God. It is odd that an organisation that doesn't have any belief in the Bible can claim God being on their side. I would call these guys protestant with a small p as they are not religious nor do they proclaim any believe in Jesus. Many people who "are born again" leave the UDA.

Are you talking about the Green Book? If so then I didn't think there was any mention of religion in it. There's talk about military tactics and politics but does it mention religion (sorry I'm not an expert on terrorist books).

My point was that it wasn't Protestants and Catholics killing each other but it was a conflict between Nationalist/Republicans and Unionists/Loyalists and to say that the people doing the killing were religious does not agree with my experience. There's a big difference between calling yourself a Christian and proclaiming that God is on your side (and often not even understanding the difference between Ulster and Northern Ireland).

I take your point that realistically people who perpetrate atrocities, etc, cannot really call themselves members of any religion.

Tbh, its not unlike the islamic extremists nowadays - there is no way they are reading the teachings of their own faith properly because even I know that it is based upon respect for your fellow man and hospitality.

Unfortunately though, if we were to split hairs, I could take you around lots of local churches where the congregation has numerous members who proclaim themselves to be Christian, but in fact they are some of the least 'christian' people you could ever meet.

This wee country will never get itself completely together until people here can see the differences lie in political and national issues, not religious ones. It will take generations to fix this, and we have not even made an effort at starting that yet (mainly due to the churches themselves and their lack of compromise).

If the churches themselves would grow a set of plums and disassociate themselves (even excommunicate) those who commit atrocities in their name, then maybe a few less would go that route. You will find though that the churches themselves fuel the fire here, purely by their inaction and segregation within their institutions.

The Claudy priest is always one which is brought up, but tbh it is a freak occurrence rather than the norm. I cannot believe that people who swear themselves to god in the manner of a priest could align themselves with such things, so I have to (probably for my own inner peace) believe that this guy was a freak of nature. I am well aware the priesthood has its own problems, and as an outsider it certainly paints them in a bad light, but again I have to assume that when anyone studies their own churches teachings (whatever they may be), they have to have a heavy emphasis on the 'love thy neighbour' etc, rather than conflict.

Oh the lessons the world could learn from NI, if they could only open their bloody eyes and see whats in front of them

 

[LicensedToTrade]

I take your point that realistically people who perpetrate atrocities, etc, cannot really call themselves members of any religion.

Tbh, its not unlike the islamic extremists nowadays - there is no way they are reading the teachings of their own faith properly because even I know that it is based upon respect for your fellow man and hospitality.

Unfortunately though, if we were to split hairs, I could take you around lots of local churches where the congregation has numerous members who proclaim themselves to be Christian, but in fact they are some of the least 'christian' people you could ever meet.

This wee country will never get itself completely together until people here can see the differences lie in political and national issues, not religious ones. It will take generations to fix this, and we have not even made an effort at starting that yet (mainly due to the churches themselves and their lack of compromise).

If the churches themselves would grow a set of plums and disassociate themselves (even excommunicate) those who commit atrocities in their name, then maybe a few less would go that route. You will find though that the churches themselves fuel the fire here, purely by their inaction and segregation within their institutions.

The Claudy priest is always one which is brought up, but tbh it is a freak occurrence rather than the norm. I cannot believe that people who swear themselves to god in the manner of a priest could align themselves with such things, so I have to (probably for my own inner peace) believe that this guy was a freak of nature. I am well aware the priesthood has its own problems, and as an outsider it certainly paints them in a bad light, but again I have to assume that when anyone studies their own churches teachings (whatever they may be), they have to have a heavy emphasis on the 'love thy neighbour' etc, rather than conflict.

Oh the lessons the world could learn from NI, if they could only open their bloody eyes and see whats in front of them

The best thing for our country would be for religion to disappear altogether. It might work in some places, but it hasn't helped us much in NI.

 

[stockdam]

This wee country will never get itself completely together until people here can see the differences lie in political and national issues, not religious ones.

I think we've gone a huge way. We can now enjoy a night out, go shopping and generally walk wherever we want without too many problems. That wasn't the case in the 70s and 80s.

People do not want to hear about negative crap any more. They are a bit more positive now and much more accommodating of differences. We trade much better than we did with the ROI and with GB.

I just hope that we can now focus on creating sustainable jobs and a lasting peace and leave the terrorists and gangsters behind in the past. If we work together we'll do it.

 

[Jeff Knows]

So I am 174 pages late to the party, but in answer to the original question :

I am not in any way religious, quite the opposite. Infact quite a very strong atheist and I do run my business as such, with logic, reason and a complete lack of superstition.

 

[am:pm graphics]

Does Christianity help your business?

..no...Christianity doesn't help but God does

Pauline

 

[cjd]

..no...Christianity doesn't help but God does

How does God help?

 

[stugster]

..no...Christianity doesn't help but God does

Pauline

That's an interesting response Pauline. Not what I had expected at all to be honest.

I was ready to see you posting reasons why Christianity, as a way of life/strive to do well in life, was the reason it helps. I didn't expect you to say God was giving you a hand.

What has God done for your business recently?

 

[LicensedToTrade]

..no...Christianity doesn't help but God does

Pauline

I was hoping to get a cheap dig in along the lines of 'Clearly God couldn't help you design decent logos' but unfortunately I looked at your portfolio and they are excellent

Oh well!

 

[DCE]

How does God help?

He gives his holy spirit

(Galatians 5:22-23) 22On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23*mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.

It helps us to deal with all situations that might occur in our lives. in the right way.

 

[cjd]

Is that like methylated spirit? (Makes you blind you know)

 

[stugster]

(Makes you blind you know)

So does a lot of other things

 

[Beachcomber]

How does God help?

Apparently he's a wonderful multi-tasker.
Very few sick days
A whizz at catering
Quite the motivational speaker as well.

 

[benjamin_c]

Take a look at this everyone http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/25/girl-arrested-allegedly-burning-quran

A school girl arrested for burning a quran! what an over reaction!
how many people got arrested for burning poppies a few weeks ago?

The only reason people are over reacting is because they're scared that her school will get used as an airport for landings only.....

 

[quikshop]

A school girl arrested for burning a quran! what an over reaction!
how many people got arrested for burning poppies a few weeks ago?

Er, no! They've arrested her because she's a stupid little girl with no concept of the World at large acting in a way to purposely cause maximum offence to a large percentage of the World's population.

Had she just burnt the book in her back yard and not filmed the event, no one would have been offended and she'd still have her liberty.

Stupidity deserves everything it gets

 

[Jeff Knows]

The stupidity here is people getting offended over someone burning a book that they own.

 

[LicensedToTrade]

The stupidity here is people getting offended over someone burning a book that they own.

In that case I've had second thoughts about how to get rid of my Andy Mcnabb collection, I think I will just give them to a charity shop. Does anyone know if you can return unopened cans of lighter fuel?

 

[maxh]

God: someone who ignored our suffering for 98,000 years. Only to inform us that we are born with sin and must seek salvation.

Salvation that we can only get if we confess our sins and announce our faith. Or we can go to hell, where we will be tormented for the rest of time.

A being that demands love and respect at the pain of horrible suffering.

It just seems very, very stupid to me.

God did not write the bible. A man wrote the bible, much like a man today writes any number of fictional novels.

I submit to you that Christianity is nothing more than an inflated fan-club.

 

[cjd]

I don't like people burning books and I don't like stopping people burning books - both smells of illiberalness.

But we really need to know what was said on the facebook page before we get too incensed about it; it may well be that the book burning was not the main reason why the kids have been charged with inciting religious hatred.

 

[LicensedToTrade]

I don't like people burning books and I don't like stopping people burning books - both smells of illiberalness.

But we really need to know what was said on the facebook page before we get too incensed about it; it may well be that the book burning was not the main reason why the kids have been charged with inciting religious hatred.

It might have been the kicking off of car wing mirrors that tipped the balance

 

[cjd]

Don't suppose long white gowns, pointy hats and burning crucifixes helped much either.

 

[movietub]

So does the CPS step in and pursue legal action because they believe Allah is a wimp that can't stand up for himself? Or do they believe that his followers are to weak to deal with others views?

I mean we are talking here about burning a book as a way of attacking an almighty and super natural god. Surely, he can take it?

Why not let people be offensive if they wish to be? The punishment is self imposed - people will stop being their freind. It's not as if 'being offended' actually harms any of us.

 

[benjamin_c]

Er, no! They've arrested her because she's a stupid little girl with no concept of the World at large acting in a way to purposely cause maximum offence to a large percentage of the World's population.

Had she just burnt the book in her back yard and not filmed the event, no one would have been offended and she'd still have her liberty.

Stupidity deserves everything it gets

So burning poppies isn't offensive? and that was broadcast on tv not just facebook/youtube...

I'm not saying she was right to do what she did, but i don't think it was particularly bad either. Certainly not bad enough to warrant being arrested.

 

[benjamin_c]

So does the CPS step in and pursue legal action because they believe Allah is a wimp that can't stand up for himself? Or do they believe that his followers are to weak to deal with others views?

I mean we are talking here about burning a book as a way of attacking an almighty and super natural god. Surely, he can take it?

Why not let people be offensive if they wish to be? The punishment is self imposed - people will stop being their freind. It's not as if 'being offended' actually harms any of us.

Maybe it could if the offended parties get behind the controls of a 747

 

I don't like people burning books and I don't like stopping people burning books - both smells of illiberalness.

But we really need to know what was said on the facebook page before we get too incensed about it; it may well be that the book burning was not the main reason why the kids have been charged with inciting religious hatred.

Now I thought part of living in a democracy was free speech,no matter how unpaletable it may be to certain groups.

Not sure if speakers corner is still in existence,but I doubt it considering the lack of freedom to express one's thoughts that seems to be part of our brave new world.

Are people really that influenced by the words of every crack pot that spouts forth.

Seems we are following the US yet again and becoming a land of children.

Earl

 

[movietub]

Maybe it could if the offended parties get behind the controls of a 747

I'm not saying that offended people never react in a stupid way. Stupidity is all around us!

My point is, they are not personally harmed by being offended. You can offend me all you like, say what you will, even expose yourself if you must. I may pull a funny face or think you are sad, bad or very disturbed.

But in no way will the fact that you offended me cause me any sort of problem. My leg won't fall off, I won't come down with herpes. It's crayy, imo, to punish anyone for being offensive. It does no lasting harm, and if they start to upset people... As I said before they are punished with lonliness.

 

[cjd]

Well i'm with you 90% of the way with that but I'm a white, middle class, educated and mentally secure individual living amongst, for the most part, people like myself. I doubt anyone could say anything that could offend me as much as a smack in the mouth.

But the incitement to racial hatred laws weren't brought in to protect my sensibilities; they're there to protect vulnerable minorities against a possibly brutal majority - the fact that we might take it all too far is one of those unintended consequences that really p1ss the Daily Wail off.

 

[bdw]

Evidence of 400,000 year old early man found (ironically) in Israel.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12084496

Professor Aviv Gopher from Tel Aviv University says that further research is needed to solidify their claim, but if they are proven right, it could change the concept of human evolution.

 

[cjd]

To those that think that the bible describes the creation it must seem a bit worrying that there were at least 4 homo (Adam) type species around together - some of them interbreeding. Odd to think that we once lived with near relations of a different species and even odder to think that we mated with some of them.

 

[Hedgie]

Archaeologists excavating a cave in central Israel believe they have found teeth belonging to the earliest Homo sapiens that could be around 400,000 years old.
The team of scientists who have been excavating Qassem cave, a pre-historic site that was uncovered in 2000, say the size and shape of the teeth are very similar to those of modern man. Oh, shock horror....what a suprise

Homo sapiens are believed to have originated in Africa and migrated out of the continent.
Professor Aviv Gopher from Tel Aviv University says that further research is needed to solidify their claim, but if they are proven right, it could change the concept of human evolution. You mean we didn't come from monkeys