Are you a Christian?

[stockdam]

What are you basing this on?

Knowing the people. I've known many people who have UDA/UVF and RHC tattooed on their knuckles but I didn't see ANY of them in Church. I never once heard any Catholic Priests or Protestant ministers condone any violence.

 

[stockdam]

The principal issues at stake in the Troubles were the constitutional status of Northern Ireland and the relationship between the mainly-Protestant unionist and mainly-Catholic nationalist communities in Northern Ireland. The Troubles had both political and military (or paramilitary) dimensions. Its participants included politicians and political activists on both sides, republican and loyalist paramilitaries, and the security forces of the United Kingdom and of the Republic of Ireland.

Tedious......

You see the words Protestant and Catholic in Wikipedia and you immediately think it proves your biased point. Nowhere does it say that "You have Catholics and Protestants killing each other in Northern Ireland"

Read it again.....

"The Troubles had both political and military (or paramilitary) dimensions. Its participants included politicians and political activists on both sides, republican and loyalist paramilitaries, and the security forces of the United Kingdom and of the Republic of Ireland."

There's absolutely no mention of Religion here......politics, paramilitary, political activists, security forces.........no Religious people here.

The Holy Cross dispute occurred in 2001 and 2002 in the Ardoyne area of Belfast, Northern Ireland, and involved an escalating dispute between the pupils and parents of Holy Cross R.C. Primary School and the residents of a loyalist area that was on the route to the front entrance of the school. A loyalist picket arose following accusations[vague] that nationalists had used the school route as a cover to cause damage and/or harassment in their community.

Do you see who was causing the problem? "A loyalist picket arose following accusations[vague] that nationalists......"

I said above many times that it was Unionists (sorry that's incorrect......I should have called them Loyalists as The Unionists are a Political Party) and Nationalists. Once again there's no religious people doing it.

And quoting from one of your other articles......

"The result was that Catholicism came to be identified with sense of nativism and Protestantism came to be identified with the State."

In other words instead of correctly calling them Nationalists they were called "Catholics" and instead of calling them Unionists they were incorrectly labelled Protestants.

I could find hundreds if not thousands of examples, yet you'll still blame atheists.

I'm sure you could and if I could be bothered wasting my time I could tear them to pieces and show that it wasn't "Catholics and Protestants killing each other in Northern Ireland" but Nationalists/Republicans and Unionists/Loyalists that were doing the killing but you wouldn't believe me as you are so determined to ignore the facts.........take a trip over and see for yourself.

 

[Subbynet]

Knowing the people. I've known many people who have UDA/UVF and RHC tattooed on their knuckles but I didn't see ANY of them in Church. I never once heard any Catholic Priests or Protestant ministers condone any violence.

This is what you have? I didn't see any of them in church??? Like I say, when they're killed, you find them in a church. It was rarely a surprise which side used which churches, or even schools come to think of it.

Can you answer why all the quotes I gave give a religion connotations to the problems in NI?

 

[Subbynet]

BUT the bloody point is religious people (or people who clam to be) are the ones fighting.

I'm not saying its a war between Catholics and Protestants (Its you repeatedly trying to assert this), I'm saying the people doing the killing have a religion and are not following it - but will go on to violence based on religious divides.

If there was no religion, a massive element would be removed from the issue.

 

[Subbynet]

Tedious......

You see the words Protestant and Catholic in Wikipedia and you immediately think it proves your biased point. Nowhere does it say that "You have Catholics and Protestants killing each other in Northern Ireland"

Read it again.....

"The Troubles had both political and military (or paramilitary) dimensions. Its participants included politicians and political activists on both sides, republican and loyalist paramilitaries, and the security forces of the United Kingdom and of the Republic of Ireland."

There's absolutely no mention of Religion here......politics, paramilitary, political activists, security forces.........no Religious people here

You read it again, let me include the line you ignored.

The principal issues at stake in the Troubles were the constitutional status of Northern Ireland and the relationship between the mainly-Protestant unionist and mainly-Catholic nationalist communities in Northern Ireland. The Troubles had both political and military (or paramilitary) dimensions. Its participants included politicians and political activists on both sides, republican and loyalist paramilitaries, and the security forces of the United Kingdom and of the Republic of Ireland.

Do you see who was causing the problem? "A loyalist picket arose following accusations[vague] that nationalists......"

Alliance Avenue, in north Belfast, is undoubtedly one of the most infamous and bloodiest streets in Northern Ireland, Throughout 30 years of the Troubles almost 20 people have been killed there by loyalists, the IRA and the British Army. A narrow street of just over 100 houses it is the dividing line between the republican Ardoyne estate and the small loyalist enclave of Glenbryn.

In a troubled society the street exemplifies the divisions that mark out Belfast from other European dues. Now exclusively Catholic it was, until the Troubles began, a mixed street. In 1971 the British Army had erected a makeshift peace line to separate Alliance Avenue from Glenbryn. By the late 1980's the peace line stood 40 foot high and was a permanent feature of life for residents on both sides, with dialogue between the Catholics and Protestants who live within touching distance of the peace line virtually non-existent. It is the dividing line, the frontier, between Protestant and Catholic Ardoyne.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/interface/docs/heatley04.htm


Now tell me again religion has no part.

 

[cjd]

Interesting how/why you need to deny the obvious. I doubt there are many people alive or dead that would say that religion has no part in the troubles.

 

[bdw]

the vast majority of these people are non-church going atheists so please tell me where Religion was responsible......I'm all ears.

Were it not so absolutely ridiculous it would be extremely offensive to place the blame of the NI troubles on atheism It is stupid to do so and it is certainly not based on the facts. I would agree that many of the people who were involved in this on both sides may not have been church goers but many of them were. This was done in the name of religion. Of that there can be no doubt.

Knowing the people. I've known many people who have UDA/UVF and RHC tattooed on their knuckles but I didn't see ANY of them in Church. I never once heard any Catholic Priests or Protestant ministers condone any violence.

If you decide that people don't have religion because they don't go to church then greater than 90% of the people in the UK are atheists.

Regarding not hearing priests or ministers condoning the bombing you could not have been listening properly.

Here's just one of them ... http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...ded-to-free-provo-bomber-priest-14922607.html

Almost all terrorists today kill in the name of religion. Atheists do not.

.

 

[stockdam]

I'm very aware of the Claudy bombings and the fact that a priest was probably involved but that doesn't mean the Church condoned anything he did......please quote the articles condoning his actions! Picking individual events or people (eg Billy Wright) and trying to associate them with the Church is waffle and proves nothing. Billy Wright had red hair.......is that relevant? So don't wave individual incidents and try to pretend that the Church was behind these people

People may have been buried in a Church and may have been Church goers but that doesn't mean that the people that murdered them were Protestant or Catholic........I'll state once more so it's clear.......the vast majority who did the killing were not religious and had no faith. As people with no faith then they were atheists. Unfortunately the Sun type headline wrongly reports a lot of the incidents as Protestant/Catholic when they mean Nationalist/Republican/Loyalist. I'm not saying that atheism is relevant but it's more factual than calling them Protestant or Catholic.

And rather than answer each individual comment, I'll ask you all to tell me what the objectives of both sides were as that is the crux.

It's quite pathetic to see so many people who are blind and cannot see the facts but want to gang up in the vain hope that collectively they will prove their point.

 

[stockdam]

Alliance Avenue, in north Belfast, is undoubtedly one of the most infamous and bloodiest streets in Northern Ireland, Throughout 30 years of the Troubles almost 20 people have been killed there by loyalists, the IRA and the British Army. A narrow street of just over 100 houses it is the dividing line between the republican Ardoyne estate and the small loyalist enclave of Glenbryn.

In a troubled society the street exemplifies the divisions that mark out Belfast from other European dues. Now exclusively Catholic it was, until the Troubles began, a mixed street. In 1971 the British Army had erected a makeshift peace line to separate Alliance Avenue from Glenbryn. By the late 1980's the peace line stood 40 foot high and was a permanent feature of life for residents on both sides, with dialogue between the Catholics and Protestants who live within touching distance of the peace line virtually non-existent. It is the dividing line, the frontier, between Protestant and Catholic Ardoyne.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/interface/docs/heatley04.htm



Now tell me again religion has no part.

Your quotes are lazy in the extreme and you are not basing your argument on anything other than including the words Protestant and Catholic.

"Throughout 30 years of the Troubles almost 20 people have been killed there by loyalists, the IRA and the British Army.".......where in that sentence does it say that Protestants or Catholics killed anyone......it says Loyalists/IRA/Army........NONE of these are religious groups,,,,,,,none.

You've yet to make any of your statements show that Protestants and Catholics were killing each other..........it's a tired old argument that hides the real truth. It's funny how somebody who doesn't understand a conflict that happened close to where they live uses it to make a point about religion......Protestants and Catholics killing each other.........laughable!

 

[bdw]

It's quite pathetic to see so many people who are blind and cannot see the facts...

Quite!

Your reasoning is just plain daft IMO and not worthy of further argument. atheists do not kill people in the name of religion. End of story.

 

[stockdam]

Interesting how/why you need to deny the obvious. I doubt there are many people alive or dead that would say that religion has no part in the troubles.

What are the goals of these religious people.....what is their aim in the conflict?

 

[stockdam]

Quite!

Your reasoning is just plain daft IMO and not worthy of further argument. atheists do not kill people in the name of religion. End of story.

I didn't say that.......I said they were atheists. These people did not kill people in the name of religion so go and get your facts straight. You have a wonderfully naive view of Northern Ireland.
Ok bye.

 

[bdw]

Thank god he's gone.

No sorry, I did not mean that forget about the god bit.

 

[stockdam]

Thank god he's gone.

No sorry, I did not mean that forget about the god bit.

Pathetic.

As pathetic as your comments about a conflict that you obviously know nothing about. Keep on harping on though as I'm sure somebody will believe you.

 

[MASSEY]

No Condoms are Evil god hates condoms.

Oh wait, maybe condoms are good, yes god likes condoms now, he changed the rules.

 

[cjd]

What are the goals of these religious people.....what is their aim in the conflict?

The goal of the Catholic South is to have a unified Ireland and the goal of the protestant North is remain part of the UK. But of course that's too simplistic - the Catholic/Protestant thing in Ireland is mostly tribal and historically ingrained. Nobody is say that the troubles there are anything to do with God or Christianity; but they are everything to do with tribalism, religious bigotry and prejudice.

 

[stockdam]

The goal of the Catholic South is to have a unified Ireland and the goal of the protestant North is remain part of the UK.

So is it Southern Ireland verses Northern Ireland? I asked what were the goals of the two sides involved.........so one side is the Protestant Northern Ireland and the other is the Catholic Southern Ireland? Have I understood?

Nobody is say that the troubles there are anything to do with God or Christianity; but they are everything to do with tribalism, religious bigotry and prejudice.

I agree with the first part which is that it isn't a Christian conflict. My point was not with what you said but with the statement about Protestants and Catholics killing each other. It's not a religious conflict yet it is cited on many websites as being religious. Many websites use the word Protestant when they mean "somebody from the Unionist/Loyalist community who we are going to call Protestant because we are too lazy to come up with a word that means somebody who is perceived to be pro-Union".

 

[stockdam]

No Condoms are Evil god hates condoms.

Oh wait, maybe condoms are good, yes god likes condoms now, he changed the rules.

So God and the Pope are the same?

 

[MASSEY]

So God and the Pope are the same?

You tell me, your more upto date with the current fairy tale than i am.

 

[Subbynet]

Your quotes are lazy in the extreme and you are not basing your argument on anything other than including the words Protestant and Catholic.

That's because in virtually any document relating to those events the words Protestant or Catholic is bound to come up. You explain it.

"Throughout 30 years of the Troubles almost 20 people have been killed there by loyalists, the IRA and the British Army.".......where in that sentence does it say that Protestants or Catholics killed anyone......it says Loyalists/IRA/Army........NONE of these are religious groups,,,,,,,none.

Again your selective quoting, so let me give you the rest once again.

In a troubled society the street exemplifies the divisions that mark out Belfast from other European dues. Now exclusively Catholic it was, until the Troubles began, a mixed street. In 1971 the British Army had erected a makeshift peace line to separate Alliance Avenue from Glenbryn. By the late 1980's the peace line stood 40 foot high and was a permanent feature of life for residents on both sides, with dialogue between the Catholics and Protestants who live within touching distance of the peace line virtually non-existent. It is the dividing line, the frontier, between Protestant and Catholic Ardoyne.

For some reason you want to ignore this.

You've yet to make any of your statements show that Protestants and Catholics were killing each other..........it's a tired old argument that hides the real truth. It's funny how somebody who doesn't understand a conflict that happened close to where they live uses it to make a point about religion......Protestants and Catholics killing each other.........laughable!

Actually the point originally being made before you jumped in on a tangent was about faith, not NI or the Troubles. Have a look at these people, who you misrepresent as being Atheists, but are clearly also Catholic and Protestants, have no moral better than anyone else. There are many examples proving what I'm saying, but you appear to think I'm trying to say this is a religious war per-se, and i'm not.

 

[Subbynet]

Many websites use the word Protestant when they mean "somebody from the Unionist/Loyalist community who we are going to call Protestant because we are too lazy to come up with a word that means somebody who is perceived to be pro-Union".

Did you read this before posting? I can assure you, the words Unionist and Loyalist both directly infer Pro-Union.

 

[stockdam]

You tell me, your more upto date with the current fairy tale than i am.

Maybe you should learn to spell and learn punctuation first.

 

[stockdam]

Did you read this before posting? I can assure you, the words Unionist and Loyalist both directly infer Pro-Union.

Love the rolleyes......yawn.

That's why I linked them together.

 

[stockdam]

Actually the point originally being made before you jumped in on a tangent was about faith, not NI or the Troubles. Have a look at these people, who you misrepresent as being Atheists, but are clearly also Catholic and Protestants, have no moral better than anyone else. There are many examples proving what I'm saying, but you appear to think I'm trying to say this is a religious war per-se, and i'm not.

So UDA/IRA etc. are "clearly Protestant and Catholics".........
So you think they go to church every week and pray for their sins?
Maybe if you knew some of these people you wouldn't be so crass as to claim that I am misrepresenting them as atheists.

Christianity is disunited and they're killing each other. You don't believe what their version of the bible teaches do you.

You have Catholics and Protestants killing each other in Northern Ireland, do you think God approves?

All the examples you posted so far have not proven that Protestants and Catholics are killing each other. Rather you have used articles that lazily use the words Protestant to group people together, not because they are religious but because most Protestants are Unionists/Loyalists therefore all Loyalist/Unionists are Protestants. Then with sleight of hand it's Protestants killing Catholics (and vice versa) rather than Loyalist bombers murdering innocent people and so on.

There is a majority of Protestants on one side and a majority of Catholics on the other (but overall a majority that want nothing to do with the conflict). Therefore it's Protestants and Catholics killing each other?



In the past, on job forms in Northern Ireland you only had two options.......Protestant or Catholic and everyone was either one or the other. Now people correctly call themselves Nationalist/Republican or Unionist/Loyalist or if they are religious Protestant or Catholic. Your views are rooted in the past and it's time you moved on.

 

[MASSEY]

Maybe you should learn to spell and learn punctuation first.

Your a charming religious chap you are.

It's quite rich for you to accuse subbynet of having "veiws rooted in the past". Maybe you should reflect on your own views to life in general.

 

[stockdam]

Your a charming religious chap you are.

It's quite rich for you to accuse subbynet of having "veiws rooted in the past". Maybe you should reflect on your own views to life in general.

Spelling is actually quite a timeless thing but I see it's still a mystery to you. Before you start trolling about fairy stories I'd polish up on your spelling first.

 

[DCE]

BUT the bloody point is religious people (or people who clam to be) are the ones fighting.

I'm not saying its a war between Catholics and Protestants (Its you repeatedly trying to assert this), I'm saying the people doing the killing have a religion and are not following it - but will go on to violence based on religious divides.

If there was no religion, a massive element would be removed from the issue.

Jesus said this would be a identifying mark of a True Christian.

(John 13:34-35) 34*I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. 35 By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”

He then said:- (John 15:17-20) 17“These things I command YOU, that YOU love one another. 18*If the world hates YOU, YOU know that it has hated me before it hated YOU. 19*If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU. 20*Bear in mind the word I said to YOU, A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will persecute YOU also;.*.*.

So anyone who takes up a position of fratricidal warfare, cannot profess to be a True Christian, can they.

Also anyone making a stand, would be hated.

Weren't the Priests and the Vicars waving goodbye to their congregation's at the railway stations, as they went of to war to kill each other, also knowing they were not coming back.

That's the truth of the matter.

 

[Subbynet]

So UDA/IRA etc. are "clearly Protestant and Catholics".........
So you think they go to church every week and pray for their sins?
Maybe if you knew some of these people you wouldn't be so crass as to claim that I am misrepresenting them as atheists.

But you are misrepresenting them as Atheists. You have no proof of this accusation, none in the slightest. Your using your own logic of "They don't go to church - so they must be atheists".

If that logic is correct, 90% of all religious people in this country are actually atheists. (Maybe someone should tell these people!)

All the examples you posted so far have not proven that Protestants and Catholics are killing each other. Rather you have used articles that lazily use the words Protestant to group people together, not because they are religious but because most Protestants are Unionists/Loyalists therefore all Loyalist/Unionists are Protestants. Then with sleight of hand it's Protestants killing Catholics (and vice versa) rather than Loyalist bombers murdering innocent people and so on.

They're also religious, but your are ignoring this aspect to focus on their political connection. Like it or not followers of God have been at fault for planting bombs, or taking out shootings.

This is a clear fact.

Given its been explained to you in countless ways now, maybe you should also stop misrepresenting this discussion as a Catholic vs. Protestant conflict - no one has ever said that.

There is a majority of Protestants on one side and a majority of Catholics on the other (but overall a majority that want nothing to do with the conflict). Therefore it's Protestants and Catholics killing each other?

Yes, in between all those that wish not to fight, you will find people with religious beliefs who have entered into violence. That was the original point being made before you dragged us off into this dead end discussion.

You now seem to be validating my point.

In the past, on job forms in Northern Ireland you only had two options.......Protestant or Catholic and everyone was either one or the other. Now people correctly call themselves Nationalist/Republican or Unionist/Loyalist or if they are religious Protestant or Catholic. Your views are rooted in the past and it's time you moved on.

Thank you once again for validating my point.

I don't think the views of the people changed as quickly as the politically correct forms produced by the government.

 

[stockdam]

They're also religious, but your are ignoring this aspect to focus on their political connection. Like it or not followers of God have been at fault for planting bombs, or taking out shootings.

This is a clear fact.

So you are telling me that the IRA/INLA/UDA/UVF/RHC etc. are religious people? You really don't have the first clue have you? I suspect that you'll harp on as it suits your agenda. Maybe if you actually lived with these people rather than spouting about something that you have no experience about. If these guys are religious then so are you............maybe you've just proven that there's no such thing as an atheist.

It's easy to quote crass articles on the web to "prove" your point but ask the people who went through it rather than stand on your soapbox spouting rubbish that insults the very people who were scraped up and put into body bags.

"Protestants and Catholics killing each other"........maybe someday you'll understand but I doubt it.

 

[bdw]

Ok bye.

I thought you had gone?

As pathetic as your comments about a conflict that you obviously know nothing about. Keep on harping on though as I'm sure somebody will believe you.

I would go so far as to say that I am very confident that the vast majority of people who are reading this hold the same view as I do. You seem not to have noticed that not a single person has agreed with your so obviously flawed reasoning. You are doing your credibility no good by persisting with it.

 

[Subbynet]

So you are telling me that the IRA/INLA/UDA/UVF/RHC etc. are religious people? You really don't have the first clue have you? I suspect that you'll harp on as it suits your agenda. Maybe if you actually lived with these people rather than spouting about something that you have no experience about. If these guys are religious then so are you............maybe you've just proven that there's no such thing as an atheist.

No, that's not what I'm telling you. Those organisations you listed are paramilitary organisations that lean heavily on religious connections, and have members who are of a religious background - as in if you asked them, they would most like be Catholic or Protestant. Yet, this religious background has no barring on how they act.

You'll find very few Catholic UDA members, and few Protestant IRA members.

IRA

In August 1969, a confrontation between nationalists and police in Derry following an Apprentice Boys of Derry march led to the Battle of the Bogside – three days of heavy fighting between rioters throwing stones and petrol bombs and police who saturated the area with CS gas. Fighting spread beyond Derry over the following days. Burning, damage or intimidation by loyalists forced 1,505 Catholics from their homes in Belfast in the Northern Ireland riots of August 1969, with over 200 Catholic homes being destroyed or requiring major repairs.[6] The Irish Republican Army (IRA) had been poorly armed and unable to adequately defend the Catholic community, which had been considered its traditional rôle since the 1920s.[28] Veteran republicans were critical of the IRA's Dublin leadership which, for political reasons, had refused to prepare for aggressive action in advance of the violence.[29][30] On 24 August Joe Cahill, Seamus Twomey, Dáithí Ó Conaill, Billy McKee and several other future Provisional leaders came together in Belfast intending to remove the Belfast leadership and turn back to traditional republicanism.[31] Although the pro-Goulding commander Billy McMillen stayed in command, he was told it was only for three months and he was not to have any communication with the IRA's Dublin based leadership.[31]

UDA

The UDA's declared goal was to defend unionist areas from attack[5] and to counter Irish republican paramilitaries. However, about 80% of its 259 known victims were civilians.[6] The majority of these were Catholics,[7] killed in what the group called retaliation for attacks on Protestants.[8][9] High-profile attacks carried out by the group include the Milltown massacre, the Castlerock killings and the Greysteel massacre. The UDA declared a ceasefire in 1994, although sporadic attacks continued until it officially ended its armed campaign in November 2007.[10]

Do i need to go on quoting?

It's easy to quote crass articles on the web to "prove" your point but ask the people who went through it rather than stand on your soapbox spouting rubbish that insults the very people who were scraped up and put into body bags.

So all the reports are wrong, all of them. The link to the university website which gave an account - is wrong... The newspapers, are wrong... Wikipedia is wrong. Everyone is wrong, but YOU are right. I'm sure plenty of these people travelled to NI, I'm sure your account is not the only account of the events!

 

[stockdam]

No, that's not what I'm telling you. Those organisations you listed are paramilitary organisations that lean heavily on religious connections, and have members who are of a religious background - as in if you asked them, they would most like be Catholic or Protestant. Yet, this religious background has no barring on how they act.

No they don't lean heavily on religious connections.........you persist on saying so as if you are correct.

Here's from a guy who has interviewed hundreds of people involved, he actually has spoken to them: "I have interviewed hundreds of UDA and UVF men, I can think of only a handful who claimed to be Christians." " The next generation in the late 1980s and 1990s had no time for religion at all"

So here is a guy who interviewed guys who admitted to killing people and the vast majority said they were not religious. Yet you claim that they lean heavily on religious connections. I'll go back to your original quote "Protestant and Catholics killing each other". The important thing is that the people doing the killing admit in interviews that they were not religious (aka atheists).

So these are from interviews with the people themselves who state that they are not religious and that religion played no part in their lives.

Do you still want to persist and claim that they are Protestant or Catholic? They say they aren't but you are claiming that they are. Doesn't really tie up does it?

 

[stockdam]

I would go so far as to say that I am very confident that the vast majority of people who are reading this hold the same view as I do. You seem not to have noticed that not a single person has agreed with your so obviously flawed reasoning. You are doing your credibility no good by persisting with it.

Being in the majority doesn't mean diddly squat as the facts speak for themselves. The vast majority have no direct experience and only know what they read or see on TV. The reality is quite different to the Sun headlines.

Read my post above which includes a statement from a guy who has interviewed hundreds of terrorists and says that they had no time at all for religion (they are atheist).

How long have you actually lived in Northern Ireland.......have you ever visited the place?

 

[am:pm graphics]

wow...this is a long thread

We are a christian run business

 

[stugster]

We are a christian run business

Does Christianity help your business?

 

[LicensedToTrade]

Being in the majority doesn't mean diddly squat as the facts speak for themselves. The vast majority have no direct experience and only know what they read or see on TV. The reality is quite different to the Sun headlines.

Read my post above which includes a statement from a guy who has interviewed hundreds of terrorists and says that they had no time at all for religion (they are atheist).

How long have you actually lived in Northern Ireland.......have you ever visited the place?

Just to weigh in, I'm actually in agreement with stockdam on this one. I think you need to have lived in NI to have a chance at understanding how it works there. I grew up in N.Ireland and was a protestant by birth (although I am not a christian at all). There are dozens of terms that can be used to describe the majority of the population but the four key ones are as such Protestant, Catholic, Loyalist and Nationalist.

Whilst the phrases can generally be linked, there are limits to what that actually means. A member of the IRA might describe himself as a Nationalist (or republican) and a Catholic, a member of the UDA might describe himself as a Loyalist and a Protestant.

But it needs to be clear that this is not a conflict based on religion in the traditional sense, this is a national identity conflict. A Catholic is a person who lives the religious values that go with Catholicism, a Protest is a person who lives the religious values that go with that, that is all.

Yes it is more than likely that if you are a catholic in NI you will be a nationalist, and a protestant will likely be a loyalist...but this is just a result of culteral upbringing.

The IRA wants a united Ireland, free from British 'oppression', The UDA wants to defend their right to remain part of the UK. Neither side is saying that they want to dissolve protestantism or catholicism respectively.

Now, once you look past the 'reasons' and into the deeper and current reasons behind this it gets more complicated because for the majority not only is this not about religion, but it isn't even about national identity anymore! It is about power, position and ego. It is gangsterism in its purest form. These people no longer care about preserving their cultural past they just want the status. They are violent thugs who kill for no particular cause other than to further their criminal careers. The latest incarnation of the IRA just want what Gerry Adams got, a deal from the british government and the money that goes with it. They are drug dealers and murders, just like London gangs. People who got bored one day and decided they wanted to do something different. Nothing religious about it.

 

[Subbynet]

No they don't lean heavily on religious connections.........you persist on saying so as if you are correct.

Its clearly correct. You have yet to show its wrong.

Here's from a guy who has interviewed hundreds of people involved, he actually has spoken to them: "I have interviewed hundreds of UDA and UVF men, I can think of only a handful who claimed to be Christians."

Ah you've managed to find a single page of Steve Bruce's book, a book about Ian Paisley and Evangelical Paisleyism. In fact the main subject of this book (Ian Paisley) undermines your idea that religion plays no part, as this man is a church Minister and an ex-member of a paramilitary organisation.

The book is trying to find comparisons to evangelical beliefs of the main protagonists in NI and Islamic (Religious) Fundamentalism - which is a point not being debated here, something we've gone to great lengths to point out to you. Despite this, you repeatedly misrepresent the argument.

Not only that, but once again you are selective quoting to make a point. Let me show the world what it really says.

Since 1978, I have interviewed hundreds of UDA and UVF men and noted the biographies of many more. I can think of only a handful
who were committed Christians before their paramilitary involvement.

Most Christains are not the committed type, as only a small minority of people who call themselves Christian attend church.

" The next generation in the late 1980s and 1990s had no time for religion at all"

The next generation, the men that reached adulthood and commanding postions in the UDA and UVF in the late 1980s and 1990s had no time for religion. Presumably becasue they could not think of anything else that would add a bit of solemnity to the ritual, they used a Bible in administering membership oaths, but, that apart, they were openly scornful of even the limited borriwing of Christain symbolism and rhetoric from Orange Lodge and Army ceremonies.

The point here was that they're not fundamental terrorists, instead of the claim you appear to be making that these people would call themselves atheist.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...&resnum=2&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...GmULa9&sig=AHIEtbS3BfBKvaCzkpjqOWhDgKYSwygxQA

Please, if you're going to try find something to quote, choose the right subject and please quote it exactly as you found it.

 

[bdw]

No one suggesting that NI terrorists are pillars of the christian faith but they do what they do in the name of religion.

I have lived for more than sixty years in the west of Scotland. Some people would argue that the "religious" divide is just as wide here as it is in parts of NI so I think I do have a grasp of the situation. All you need to do is go an old firm match in Glasgow where a large percentage of the fans travel over from the north and the south of Ireland on pilgrimages to demonstrate their christian faith. Very few of them would tell you that they were atheist.

 

[stockdam]

Just to weigh in, I'm actually in agreement with stockdam on this one. I think you need to have lived in NI to have a chance at understanding how it works there. I grew up in N.Ireland and was a protestant by birth (although I am not a christian at all). There are dozens of terms that can be used to describe the majority of the population but the four key ones are as such Protestant, Catholic, Loyalist and Nationalist.

Thanks for a balanced view from somebody who lived there.

The big cause of confusion in Northern Ireland is the use of the words Protestant and Catholic. You were/are a protestant but not a Christian. I've used a small "p" as it means that you were born into a community that calls itself protestant even though you can be an atheist. I'll use the capital "P" for a Christian Protestant. You can't be a Protestant and an atheist but you can be a protestant and an atheist. A protestant is really another word for Unionist or Loyalist and has nothing to do with religion.

The IRA were not setup to fight against Protestants nor were the UDA/UVF setup to kill Catholics. Very few of these people were/are Protestant/Catholic and none of their actions are supported or condoned by the Protestant or Catholic Churches.

Hence to say that Protestants and Catholics were killing each other is just plain wrong. The implication being that Christians were killing Christians and that is nonsense. It's a commonly held view outside of Northern Ireland and one that may be in the majority here but that doesn't make it right.

 

[Subbynet]

Its been repeatedly made clear to Stockdam that were not discussing a religious conflict, but that members of both sides don't adhere to the teachings of their faith.

But that doesn't matter, stocky has pulled us down an avenue which wasn't even in discussion. Maybe he should have read a few posts before the one which sent him ranting.