Are you a Christian?

[cjd]

Well at least that was honest; you haven't even read the source that you're quoting from. You don't read anything that isn't pre-approved by your leaders do you?

Despite the fact that Behe has never published anything for peer review by science, and despite being found wrong even in law, you quote him as a scientific and legal source. Even you, DCE must find that wrong. more lying for Jesus?

 

[paultnl]

No it does not prove anything, they were all atheists on the Jury

Read the link, there was no jury.

The suit was brought in the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Pennsylvania seeking declaratory and injunctive relief. Since it sought an equitable remedy the Seventh Amendment right to a jury trial did not apply. It was tried in a bench trial from September 26, 2005 to November 4,

If you are going to argue, please use some intelligence.

 

[DCE]

If you are going to argue, please use some intelligence.

(Proverbs 3:13-18) 13*Happy is the man that has found wisdom, and the man that gets discernment, 14*for having it as gain is better than having silver as gain and having it as produce than gold itself. 15*It is more precious than corals, and all other delights of yours cannot be made equal to it. 16*Length of days is in its right hand; in its left hand there are riches and glory. 17*Its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all its roadways are peace. 18*It is a tree of life to those taking hold of it, and those keeping fast hold of it are to be called happy.

Its all about having Godly Wisdom, so we don't argue about things, as there is nothing to argue about, as Jesus said at (John 8:32) 32*and YOU will know the truth, and the truth will set YOU free.

 

[cjd]

You're safe in your own delusion DCE, just stay there and stop pretending you can argue from fact. If you can't read even the stuff you quote yourself, it's probably best for your mental health that you pack this crusade up.

Do yourself a favour and ask your supervisor for a replacement - you've done your bit.

 

[DCE]

You're safe in your own delusion DCE, just stay there and stop pretending you can argue from fact. If you can't read even the stuff you quote yourself, it's probably best for your mental health that you pack this crusade up.

Do yourself a favour and ask your supervisor for a replacement - you've done your bit.

You have not given me any facts, just conjecture about something that is without foundation, as you are well aware.

▪ Fact: DNA is packaged within the chromosomes in a manner so efficient that it has been called a “feat of engineering.”

Question: How could such order and organization arise by undirected chance events?

▪ Fact: DNA’s capacity to store information still has no equal in today’s computer age.

Question: If human computer technicians cannot achieve such results, how could mindless matter do so on its own?

▪ Fact: DNA contains all the instructions needed to build a unique human body and maintain it throughout life.

Question: How could such writing come about without a writer, such programming without a programmer?

▪ Fact: For DNA to work, it has to be copied, read, and proofread by a swarm of complex molecular machines called enzymes, which must work together with precision and split-second timing.

Question: Do you believe that highly complex, highly reliable machinery can come about by chance?

Without solid proof, would not such a belief amount to blind faith?

 

[cjd]

Question: Do you believe that highly complex, highly reliable machinery can come about by chance?

<sigh>

The evolution of complex organisms and molecules DID NOT COME ABOUT ONLY BY CHANCE.

Are you deaf? Only you and your weird sect say that it did. It would be utterly impossible for complexity to occur by chance, so of course it didn't.

The process is called Cumulative selection.It would take more than the lifetime of the universe for a computer to randomly create a given verse of Shakespeare, but a programme behaving like natural selection does it in a couple of seconds.

I'll give you a link that explains the process as a simple model - I have no expectation that you will read it.

Just know that very time you say that evolution happens only by chance and could not possibly occur, that you are telling a lie and hurting the baby Jesus and thereby hindering your chances of being in the 144,000 or even the lucky souls that get to be resurrected; next week or maybe the week after.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_program

 

[stockdam]

I see there is no end to this thread and that the mud slinging is still going on.

Weasel Program.......Thanks for the laugh as it doesn't say anything. As Dawkins even admits himself there is no way evolution has a predefined target to compare with so the whole argument is absolutely pointless. All you and your mate have done is throw more mud to wade through to find out that it was a waste of time and didn't progress your argument one inch.

Anyway carry on with the blind arguments and have a great 2011.

 

[cjd]

It's an analogy - ffs. it fails only because there is a predetermined goal, which evolution does not have , or need.

Not that it matters, both you and DCE have admitted to accepting macro evolution anyway.

 

[DCE]

It's an analogy - ffs. it fails only because there is a predetermined goal, which evolution does not have , or need.

Not that it matters, both you and DCE have admitted to accepting macro evolution anyway.

No that is not true.

The question is this:-

Why do many prominent evolutionists insist that macroevolution is a fact?

After criticizing some of Richard Dawkins’ reasoning, influential evolutionist Richard Lewontin wrote that many scientists are willing to accept scientific claims that are against common sense “because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism.

” Many scientists refuse even to consider the possibility of an intelligent Designer because, as Lewontin writes, “we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.”

In this regard, sociologist Rodney Stark is quoted in Scientific American as saying: “There’s been 200 years of marketing that if you want to be a scientific person you’ve got to keep your mind free of the fetters of religion.”

He further notes that in research universities “the religious people keep their mouths shut,” while “irreligious people discriminate.” According to Stark, “there’s a reward system to being irreligious in the upper echelons [of the scientific community].”

If we are to accept the teaching of macroevolution as true, we must believe that agnostic or atheistic scientists will not let their personal beliefs influence their interpretations of scientific findings.

We must believe that mutations and natural selection produced all complex life-forms, despite the fact that a century of research, the study of billions of mutations, shows that mutations have not transformed even one properly defined species into something entirely new.

We must believe that all creatures gradually evolved from a common ancestor, despite the fact that the fossil record strongly indicates that the major kinds of plants and animals appeared abruptly and did not evolve into other kinds, even over aeons of time.

Does that type of belief sound as though it is based on fact or on a myth?

 

[cjd]

No that is not true.

You believe that Noah put 2 of each 'kind' into his mythological Ark don't you? And you thereafter believe that those 'kinds' (for which the nearest scientific equivalent is genus, ie one higher level that species) evolved into the range of species we see on earth today. or am I wrong? (I find it difficult to remember which odd beliefs each of your various sects and cults hold.)

 

[Jeff Knows]

Again you are twisting the facts, or completely misunderstanding Lewontin's arguments.

Lewontin is in no way a creationist. He simply dislikes neo-Darwinism. He argues against the idea that all traits a species has are simply inherited or evolutions of traits it's parents had.

For example a neo-Darwinist would say the reason Giraffe's have long necks is that slowly over time the species had to adapt to survive in the environment it lived in. The longer necked Giraffe's got the most food and therefor outbred the shorter ones.

Lewontin argues that there should be allowances given for Giraffe's arriving at long necks purely by accident and managing to stay alive because, by happy coincidence, the environment could support such a freak feature.

This doesn't mean to say he believes in a creator or that his arguments make a creator any more likely. It's purely that he thinks neo-Darwinists run the risk of rejecting situations where species have gained traits purely by accident and not through inheritance.

You really should take time to read and understand the articles you quote from. The article you quote Lewinton from is a NYTimes Book review of Carl Sagan's book [SIZE=-1]The Demon-Haunted World[/SIZE]. It's an article that practically decries Sagan (Politely, ofcourse) for just explaining the facts we know and not how we know them. It's an article about not playing the same game the religious do and just speaking down to people as 'experts' but making a conscious attempt to show why your method of arriving at facts is superior to theirs.

In the article Lewontin makes reference to The Little Rock Debate, which if you take time to read up one the people you hijack for your absurd notions you would know was a debate whereby Lewontin and Sagan debated together against a 'fundamentalist scientist' under the question "RESOLVED. that the theory of evolution is as proved as is the fact that the earth goes around the sun"

Be under no illusion, Lewontin is a firm evolutionist, regardless of how hard you try to cherry pick his words to show otherwise. He simply disagrees with a particular strain of evolution that is neo-Darwinism.

 

[hilhilginger]

I am christian but i won't celebrate christmas for christ was not born on december.

 

[Beachcomber]

You have not given me any facts, just conjecture about something that is without foundation, as you are well aware.

&#9642; Fact: DNA is packaged within the chromosomes in a manner so efficient that it has been called a "feat of engineering."

Question: How could such order and organization arise by undirected chance events?

Not undirected - there are plenty of observable biological functions at work here.

&#9642; Fact

: DNA's capacity to store information still has no equal in today's computer age.

Question: If human computer technicians cannot achieve such results, how could mindless matter do so on its own?

Rather silly comment which assumes mankind has reached their full technological potential and wil never make any further advances.

&#9642; Fact:

DNA contains all the instructions needed to build a unique human body and maintain it throughout life.

Question: How could such writing come about without a writer, such programming without a programmer?[/quote]

You've had this answer at least 4 times before.

&#9642; Fact:

For DNA to work, it has to be copied, read, and proofread by a swarm of complex molecular machines called enzymes, which must work together with precision and split-second timing.

Question: Do you believe that highly complex, highly reliable machinery can come about by chance?

So if DNA is the work of god - and there are numerous conditions caused by DNA abnormalities / genetic misfunctions - are god's coding abilities faulty? Thought he was infallable? Or are unborn feotuses capable of sin / bringing it upon themselves?

Without solid proof, would not such a belief amount to blind faith?

Humans are genetically programmed to see patterns and themes. It's a way of comprehending the world around us, nothing more than a development / survival trait.

 

[matildawilson86]

My faith isn't part of my business at all. I'm running a business and selling services to clients so it doesn't have to be part of my business and I don't want it to be. There's a time and a place for it.

I totally agree with you. Faith is something you should stay away from business. For instance, I deal with retailers. Does this mean that we should only sell to Christians. Of course not.

 

[bdw]

Awww c'mon. Don't spoil things by taking the thread back on topic.

 

[hilhilginger]

until now no scientist could prove the theory of evolution and what all wriiten in the bible is still stand true.

 

[cjd]

Oh gosh another one.

Noah actually built an Ark did he?

 

[creospace]

I totally agree with you. Faith is something you should stay away from business. For instance, I deal with retailers. Does this mean that we should only sell to Christians. Of course not.

So the ethics & morals that you learn within your faith you don't carry over into your business life? Isn't that double standards?

Your faith should embrace everything you do in life, doesn't mean you have to only serve Christians or indeed ram your faith down the throats of those who do not have faith.

 

[quikshop]

Your faith should embrace everything you do in life, doesn't mean you have to only serve Christians or indeed ram your faith down the throats of those who do not have faith.

That's probably the most sensible comment posted on this thread so far.

If those with religion kept their beliefs to themselves or to like-minded sorts then we'd all get along so much better.

It is the inciduous way some religous sorts try to infect the every day lives of others with their voodoo that is the route of most problems in society.

I wonder how the Coptic Christians are going to react to the religious terrorism in Alexandria? If anyone is in any doubt that the next big war will be openly religious they should wake up and smell the roses.

 

[DCE]

Oh gosh another one.

Noah actually built an Ark did he?

Few stories are more widely known.

The record of what happened to Noah is found in the Bible book of Genesis, chapters*6 through 9, and it is retold in the Koran and in the legends of countless peoples throughout the earth.

Did the Flood really happen, or is it merely an allegorical tale to encourage people to do what is right?

Theologians and scientists have debated this question for centuries.

Yet, the Bible, the Word of God, allows no room for doubt—the account is fact, not fiction.

Consider: The Genesis account tells us the precise year, month, and day when the Deluge began, when and where the ark came to rest, and when the earth dried off.

Details about the ark are also precise—the layout, the measurements, and the material used to build it.

Fables, by contrast, are usually vague in their descriptions.

Two genealogical accounts in the Bible testify that Noah was a real person. (1*Chronicles 1:4; Luke 3:36) Both Ezra and Luke, who compiled these genealogies, were careful researchers.

Luke traced Jesus Christ’s lineage to Noah.

References to Noah or the Flood were made by the prophets Isaiah and Ezekiel and by the Christian apostles Paul and Peter.—Isaiah 54:9; Ezekiel 14:14, 20; Hebrews 11:7; 1*Peter 3:19, 20; 2*Peter 2:5.

Jesus Christ referred to the Flood, saying: “Just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of man: they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage, until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the flood arrived and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26,*27)

If the Deluge had not happened, then Jesus’ statement about “the days of the Son of man” would be meaningless.

The apostle Peter foretold that there would come “ridiculers” who would scoff at what the Bible says. “According to their wish,” Peter wrote, “this fact escapes their notice, that .*.*. the world of [Noah’s] time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water.” Should “this fact” escape our notice?

Absolutely not! Peter continued: “The heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.”—2*Peter 3:3-7.

Once again, God will destroy the wicked, and once again, there will be survivors.

By patterning our life after Noah’s, we may be among the righteous ones who will be delivered into a better world.

 

[Top Hat]

Few stories are more widely known.

The record of what happened to Noah is found in the Bible book of Genesis, chapters*6 through 9, and it is retold in the Koran and in the legends of countless peoples throughout the earth.

Did the Flood really happen, or is it merely an allegorical tale to encourage people to do what is right?

Theologians and scientists have debated this question for centuries.

Yet, the Bible, the Word of God, allows no room for doubt—the account is fact, not fiction.

Consider: The Genesis account tells us the precise year, month, and day when the Deluge began, when and where the ark came to rest, and when the earth dried off.

Details about the ark are also precise—the layout, the measurements, and the material used to build it.

Fables, by contrast, are usually vague in their descriptions.

Two genealogical accounts in the Bible testify that Noah was a real person. (1*Chronicles 1:4; Luke 3:36) Both Ezra and Luke, who compiled these genealogies, were careful researchers.

Luke traced Jesus Christ’s lineage to Noah.

References to Noah or the Flood were made by the prophets Isaiah and Ezekiel and by the Christian apostles Paul and Peter.—Isaiah 54:9; Ezekiel 14:14, 20; Hebrews 11:7; 1*Peter 3:19, 20; 2*Peter 2:5.

Jesus Christ referred to the Flood, saying: “Just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of man: they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage, until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the flood arrived and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26,*27)

If the Deluge had not happened, then Jesus’ statement about “the days of the Son of man” would be meaningless.

The apostle Peter foretold that there would come “ridiculers” who would scoff at what the Bible says. “According to their wish,” Peter wrote, “this fact escapes their notice, that .*.*. the world of [Noah’s] time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water.” Should “this fact” escape our notice?

Absolutely not! Peter continued: “The heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.”—2*Peter 3:3-7.

Once again, God will destroy the wicked, and once again, there will be survivors.

By patterning our life after Noah’s, we may be among the righteous ones who will be delivered into a better world.

There is no hope for you, you are lost to your delusion.

 

[Top Hat]

The apostle Peter foretold that there would come “ridiculers” who would scoff at what the Bible says. “According to their wish,” Peter wrote, “this fact escapes their notice, that .*.*. the world of [Noah’s] time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water.” Should “this fact” escape our notice?

That's me that is, I got a mention in the bible, how cool is that.

 

[cjd]

So Noah built an Ark and filled it with a couple each of all the plants and animals on the planet. Then the loving God flooded the earth to a few meters above the highest mountain in the biggest act of genocide the universe has ever seen. Then all the animals and plants left the Ark and went back home somehow. And to celebrate, God gave us the rainbow, which had never existed before the flood.

And Father Christmas visits all the children on earth in the same night and leaves them presents.

Oh dear, DCF it's hopeless for you isn't it?

 

[DCE]

There is no hope for you, you are lost to your delusion.

Please explain what hope is, if you can?

 

[DCE]

That's me that is, I got a mention in the bible, how cool is that.

Prophesy coming true, must make you think.

 

[Jeff Knows]

Prophesy coming true, must make you think.

It's a very long and very old book.

Don't you think in another 2,000 years atleast .. 12 .. things contained within the Harry Potter series will have happened in real life?

 

[DCE]

It's a very long and very old book.

Don't you think in another 2,000 years atleast .. 12 .. things contained within the Harry Potter series will have happened in real life?

(Revelation 12:12) 12*On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”

Harry Potter has already had it's day, time is now running out Jeff.

 

[Jeff Knows]

DCE Can you understand that nobody cares what the Bible says? It has no relevance on the reality of humanity. You, and people like you, are the only people who believe it is the word of God .. and you can't prove that.

Don't you find it strange that your entire faith rests upon a single book you hold so dear, yet similarly aged books from around the world are flatly dismissed by your religion.. and yours by theirs.

All the books can't be correct. What makes you think the Bible is? It certainly contradicts itself enough to be a work of misguided fiction. Perhaps the koran is correct, perhaps none of them.

Is there anything other than the Bible that you can point to that supports your faith in your God? Because my 'faith' in science has many evidence markers. I don't rely upon one book, I don't rely upon the word of one man. Thousands of men and hundreds of thousands of books support my claim and more are written every day. You still rely on one book, written by a people who are LONG dead and had absolutely no clue about the modern world.

 

[Parthelan]

And Father Christmas visits all the children on earth in the same night and leaves them presents.

YES

HE

DOES!!!!!!!!!

 

[cjd]

YES

HE

DOES!!!!!!!!!

Well at least we have some evidence. Millions of people believe in him, he's seen around the place and presents are indeed miraculously left. Science has also been unable to prove that he doesn't exist. So I guess he must do.

 

[Parthelan]

Well at least we have some evidence. Millions of people believe in him, he's seen around the place and presents are indeed miraculously left. Science has also been unable to prove that he doesn't exist. So I guess he must do.

Is the correct answer

Jeez... next thing you'll be saying there's no tooth fairy

I've seen people banned for less. You're on thin ice my friend

 

[Top Hat]

There is no hope for you, you are lost to your delusion.

Please explain what hope is, if you can?

I thought it was pretty obvious.

DCE, do you really believe in the flood?

 

[DCE]

I thought it was pretty obvious.

DCE, do you really believe in the flood?

Why should I not believe in the flood?

 

[Jeff Knows]

Why should I not believe in the flood?

Because it is a logically impossible feat. Where did all the water go?

 

[DCE]

Because it is a logically impossible feat. Where did all the water go?

Seventy percent of the earth is covered by water and only 30% percent is dry land. Moreover, 75% percent of the earth’s fresh water is locked up in glaciers and polar ice caps.

If all this ice were to melt, the sea level would rise much higher. Cities like New York and Tokyo would disappear.

Further, The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “The average depth of all the seas has been estimated at 3,790 metres (12,430 feet), a figure considerably larger than that of the average elevation of the land above the sea level, which is 840 metres (2,760 feet).

If the average depth is multiplied by its respective surface area, the volume of the World Ocean is 11 times the volume of the land above sea level.”

So, if everything were leveled out—if the mountains were flattened and the deep sea basins filled in—the sea would cover the whole earth to a depth of thousands of meters.

 

[cjd]

Oh dear. not happy with dismissing all the biological sciences of evolutionary theory, genetics and cell biology, embryology, palaeontology, anthropology and a host of related disciplines I now predict the demise of geology, climatology, plate tectonics, radiometric analysis and hydrology.

It's just one massive conspiracy by the Devil. Peace be on Him.

Can't wait 'til it's explained how you get a couple of blue whales plus food and a salt water tank into a wooden boat. That'll be the death of both civil and structural engineering and a goodly chunk of both physics and mathematics.

Such fun.

 

[Jeff Knows]

Seventy percent of the earth is covered by water and only 30% percent is dry land. Moreover, 75% percent of the earth's fresh water is locked up in glaciers and polar ice caps.

If all this ice were to melt, the sea level would rise much higher. Cities like New York and Tokyo would disappear.

Further, The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: "The average depth of all the seas has been estimated at 3,790 metres (12,430 feet), a figure considerably larger than that of the average elevation of the land above the sea level, which is 840 metres (2,760 feet).

If the average depth is multiplied by its respective surface area, the volume of the World Ocean is 11 times the volume of the land above sea level."

So, if everything were leveled out-if the mountains were flattened and the deep sea basins filled in-the sea would cover the whole earth to a depth of thousands of meters.

Ok.. so god melted all the ice and the world flooded. Righto. This was all after Adam and Eve and the kinky bit in the garden, right?

So god made man and woman, they sinned.. but he thought oh well I'll keep humanity around anyway, I can put up with the sinning. A few years down the line he decides that actually he'll just kill most things on the planet because .. whatever. He's god and he can do what he wants. So he talks to a bearded bloke, who builds a boat and fills it with some animals. Nevermind the animals that are in countries the people who wrote the book would have never seen (God don't mention no Kangaroo's!).. so gathers 'em all up and bam.. everyone dead.

God re-freezes some water and every comes back down. All the cities are fine, even if they weren't it's not like there are any builders about to sort the water damage. Noah lets all the animals off the boat and....... wait, how does one bearded guy with a boat re populate the planet again? I mean I know chicks dig guys with boats but generally the whole being dead bit kinda rules them out for mating.

Also additional question.. did all the fish survive in the flood?

 

[DCE]

It's just one massive conspiracy by the Devil.

You couldn't have said a more truthful statement.

Well done CJD, you are getting the point at last, you have just revealed, who really is the cause of all this suffering, on this earth.

Soon God's Heavenly Kingdom, is going to intervene into Man's affairs, and bring about peace on this earth, no-more sickness, no-more death, only life everlasting, on a paradise earth.

Good News don't you think, compared to all the bad news coming across the world news, all the time.

Just think God's original purpose for mankind will then be fulfilled, which was due to the Ransom Sacrifice of his only begotten son Jesus Christ.

(Proverbs 2:20-22) 20*The purpose is that you may walk in the way of good people and that the paths of the righteous ones you may keep. 21*For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. 22*As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.

 

[Jeff Knows]

Relatively speaking Satan is a pretty good guy when you compare him to Big Ole Long Beard in his cloud palace.

Ever occur to you that in the story of the bible.. you are the baddies?

Not sure I'd be comfortable worshiping a guy who kills 2.5million people then boasts about it in his own book. Bit like if Stalin had a blogspot account.

 

[DCE]

Relatively speaking Satan is a pretty good guy when you compare him to Big Ole Long Beard in his cloud palace.
Ever occur to you that in the story of the bible.. you are the baddies?

Not sure I'd be comfortable worshiping a guy who kills 2.5million people then boasts about it in his own book. Bit like if Stalin had a blogspot account.

(Revelation 12:7-10) .*.*.And war broke out in heaven: Mi&#8242;cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8*but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9*So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

He has certainly got you fooled.