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Sages new Web-based accounting software

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To be honest I think the current Online50 model that they run works very well ..... all the screens are just the same as the 'software' version, the only draw back (and it was a BIG one) is the cost, which I feel is OTT to say the very least, so it will be interesting to see how the 'software' version integrates with the new online version - and of course the cost ;)

There seems to be a lot of competition now in this market, with a new site coming to my attention at least every month so although they have the name it will be entering a very crowded market place.

Interesting times .....
 
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A "designed for the web" type application like this is very different to bending 50 to work over the web. The screens on this are very different to Sage 50 as it's designed for a different audience.

Pricing is £10 per month per user. Priced to sell!

One a month is about my count on new entrants too.

Fernhurst Accountancy Solutions said:
Interesting times .....
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My favourite chinese curse.
 
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Personally, I think the blog post was a mistake. After reading that, I, as someone who isn't a Kashflow customer would go look at Sage - honestly, when the MD of its main competitor sort of gives it a thumbs up... Why not?

I just think it was strange to even acknowledge your competitor in this way. The only times I think you should is in Partnerships and Bad News (Investors also like to hear about them).

Saying that it looks like Kashflow has awakened the sleeping dragon, lets just hope it doesn't eat you for dinner. (With salt supplied by Duane! lol)
 
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Subbynet said:
Personally, I think the blog post was a mistake. After reading that, I, as someone who isn't a Kashflow customer would go look at Sage - honestly, when the MD of its main competitor sort of gives it a thumbs up... Why not?
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A thumbs up? That wasn't my verdict. It looks good, but doesn't deliver.

I did think about whether or not to prior to blogging about it and also had a chat with Lord Young (my boss). The way I see it is that Sage are a huge firm with a big publicity machine - it'll get LOADS of coverage when Sage announce it.

By us shouting about it first, we take a bit of the wind out of their sails (sales? : ) and hopefully get a mention in any early coverage about it.
 
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I forgot to say in my orginal post. Thanks to Carl at CSNM.

I managed to mess up my blog somehow and was keen to get that post on before anyone else blogged about it. One email to him and it was sorted in about 17 seconds.
 
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Subbynet said:
I just think it was strange to even acknowledge your competitor in this way. The only times I think you should is in Partnerships and Bad News (Investors also like to hear about them).

Saying that it looks like Kashflow has awakened the sleeping dragon, lets just hope it doesn't eat you for dinner. (With salt supplied by Duane! lol)
Click to expand...

DuaneJackson said:
By us shouting about it first, we take a bit of the wind out of their sails (sales? : ) and hopefully get a mention in any early coverage about it.
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Top industry analyst agrees it's a PR coup, thankfully. Your post did make me question myself albeit briefly. Artilcles popping up all over the place on it now the journos have recovered from their weekends of vice and debauchery
Subbynet said:
Saying that it looks like Kashflow has awakened the sleeping dragon, lets just hope it doesn't eat you for dinner. (With salt supplied by Duane! lol)
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No fear. UKBF has it's resident dragon-slayer anyway : ) She eats them for breakfast you know.
 
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exactly Ling, in fact I rank #3 in google for 'Sage Line 500' right behind Sage UK and have done for about a year now just with a basic blog, ok niche term but a profitable niche for me. I'm happy to use their name!
 
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DuaneJackson said:
It looks good, but doesn't deliver.
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It is interesting to read what you say on your blog about Sage software being designed by a large company, by people who haven't run a small business. It is important to be 'close to the coal face', close to your target audience, and what better than to be in the target audience yourself.

DuaneJackson said:
Complete validation
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Since my company's hosted managed sitebuilder service is a similar SaaS (Software as a Service) but for business web sites rather than accounts, we thought it quite interesting when Microsoft entered this market too back in late 2006 with their free Microsoft Office Live Basics sitebuilder service. The MS service has improved quite a bit from its initial version and is now quite good, the things we initially didn't like are not there now, the current system is not too 'big company' but quite practical for small businesses, and whilst it is missing some important features, like ecommerce and some UK seo issues, it certainly does validate the same business model (SaaS) as we are using, even if it is aiming for a different segment of the market.

DuaneJackson said:
A "designed for the web" type application like this is very different to bending 50 to work over the web.
Click to expand...
You mentioned ajax, did you get a hint at what back-end platform they were using (MS-based, php-based etc). I read that the Sage 50 HR desktop product uses an embedded MySQL database, so perhaps they are using MySQL on the backend?
 
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awebapart.com said:
You mentioned ajax, did you get a hint at what back-end platform they were using (MS-based, php-based etc). I read that the Sage 50 HR desktop product uses an embedded MySQL database, so perhaps they are using MySQL on the backend?
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I did specifically ask that. All they'd say is "it posts to a Sage 50 database at the backend" I think he might have been a bit out of his depth on the techie questions.
 
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They are moving Sage50 to a mySQL backend in the next couple of years so this fits with what Duane has seen and I think that will be the DB of choice for both the existing product and the new webaroony one.
 
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DuaneJackson said:
Top industry analyst agrees it's a PR coup, thankfully. Your post did make me question myself albeit briefly. Artilcles popping up all over the place on it now the journos have recovered from their weekends of vice and debauchery.
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Oh come on, you find an opinion, I find an oppossing opinion, and we find out that everyone has an opinion. :rolleyes::D

(And he seems to think all KashFlow news is a PR coup - http://hotviews.blogspot.com/search?q=kashflow so are they unbiased?)

Anyways, I personally just don't believe this is a coup. A week ago I knew of one Accounting/Bookkeeping SaaS solution - Kashflow, now I know of two. (And yes, I will check it out asap)

How is that better for you? Wouldn't some people now postpone their accounting solution decision until they've seen Sage's service? In my mind you just gave yourself 2 months of un-needed competition, as no one else really knew when this was coming, but you've gave a rough date, and people can wait if they know a release date.

Take that Press Release, great, now I have a price - I know its cheaper than Kashflow, I can possibly save £72 per user per year.

How is that better for you? It all tells me to delay moving to SaaS...

I'm afraid as much as I want to Duane, I can't simply accept your opinion of Sage's offering, for obvious reasons I hope, so while I note your points, I now have to go find out for myself.

I might be wrong, and if so fair enough - you live and learn, but right now, I stand by my earlier comment that I don't think this was the right thing at the right time by the right person.
 
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Subbynet said:
Oh come on, you find an opinion, I find an oppossing opinion, and we find out that everyone has an opinion. :rolleyes::D
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True : )
Subbynet said:
(And he seems to think all KashFlow news is a PR coup - http://hotviews.blogspot.com/search?q=kashflow so are they unbiased?)
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Look a little closer. This is the first time (I'm aware of) that Anthony Miller has written about us. The other entries are all by Richard Holway. He rarely comments on our PR fluff. 4 entries related to KF (none saying anythign about a PR coup) on the blog compared to dozens of press releases we put out.

That's fine if people want to wait to see Sage's offering before making a commitment. If they start a 60 day free trial of KF now then they'll have plenty of time to do that. I'm confident that at the end of it they'll choose us over Sage.

I concede that your points are all valid, but we'll have to agree to disagree on whether overall it was the right move or not.

At the moment, all I'm seeing is lots of new articles popping up on the web in front of my target audience and mentioning my company along side the UK's biggest and most successful software company.

If I left it a month or two and let Sage announce it, the coverage would have been there but with no mention of KashFlow
 
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This is now in public beta at www.sagelive.co.uk if anyone wan't to have a play. Or you can save time and I can sum it up in two word for you: complete pants.

Seriously though, go have a play and report back here what you think. I know I'm expected to say this, but it really is dire - exactly what you'd expect from Sage. Certainly not going to be a threat to KashFlow or any of the other establised web-based offerings.
 
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DuaneJackson said:
This is now in public beta at www.sagelive.co.uk if anyone wan't to have a play. Or you can save time and I can sum it up in two word for you: complete pants.

Seriously though, go have a play and report back here what you think. I know I'm expected to say this, but it really is dire - exactly what you'd expect from Sage. Certainly not going to be a threat to KashFlow or any of the other establised web-based offerings.
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Well, you said it was dire....but I didn't expect it to be that poor, I was ready to throw the laptop out the window after 15 minutes of fighting with the Sage Live Billing, and I have to say, I am a huge fan of Sage products normally. This is definately one I will be avoiding.
 
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To be fair to them, it is in Beta and it will no doubt improve based on feedback (I aint giving 'em any!). But it's so far off the mark that I can't see anything other than going back virtually to square one could save it.

I do feel sorry for the guys that built it. They were very proud of it and were very passionate about it. But it just shows through that they've never ran their own small businesses and had to use the software in earnest.
 
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Find the rule in their new sagelive forum quite ironic

"We actively discourage obscenity and mindless abuse"

Thats got to be a first for sage, seeing as how much of that went on when I worked there...
 
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DuaneJackson said:
To be fair to them, it is in Beta and it will no doubt improve based on feedback (I aint giving 'em any!). But it's so far off the mark that I can't see anything other than going back virtually to square one could save it.
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If you amalgamate with them would it be:

Sage and Kashflow Stuffing.?

Earl
 
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DuaneJackson said:
I do feel sorry for the guys that built it. They were very proud of it and were very passionate about it. But it just shows through that they've never ran their own small businesses and had to use the software in earnest.
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It has all the hallmarks of being designed by graphic designers and web programming experts as opposed to people who actually think about what the processes involved in day to day use are. Very pretty and full of smart web tech, but not actually usable, I'm afraid.

I just tried to raise an invoice, issue it, and then see it on the customer account. I can't work out how to do that. The simplest of initial tasks. I've created the invoice and issued it, but bizarrely the customer account is showing the invoice simultaneously as a debit and a credit with a zero balance as if the cash was received straight away, though I never requested that and nor can I see a button to do that on the invoice form.

Despite the prettiness the whole thing feels about as friendly to use as a cornered rat. By contrast when I tried similar stuff with KashFlow on first exposure I was able to get tasks like that working instantly. Likewise with MS SBA and Sage's (actually quite nice IMHO) desktop product.
 
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DuaneJackson said:
To be fair to them, it is in Beta and it will no doubt improve based on feedback (I aint giving 'em any!). But it's so far off the mark that I can't see anything other than going back virtually to square one could save it.

I do feel sorry for the guys that built it. They were very proud of it and were very passionate about it. But it just shows through that they've never ran their own small businesses and had to use the software in earnest.
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I think you're right Duane,

1 thing that stuck out,
I created a test
*customer and an
*invoice, and then received the money
It took far too long to do 1, so there's no way i'd upload previous invoices

It has quite a good design however, but not too keen on all the pop ups

But i've tried,
Kashflow,
E-conomic,
Liquid Accounts,
Sage 50, and now Sage Live
I can actually says your's is the easiest to use, and does what is needed (for me anyway)
 
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Part of the problem for me is that Sage has tried to de-mystify the process by using terms like "Money in" and "Money out" as an alternative to debits and credits (or is it an alternative for sales and purchase ledger? The interpretation seems to vary by context in their screens).

But inventing their own language to describe double-entry doesn't help accountancy novices to understand what is going on at all. What does it mean to describe the issuing of a sales invoice to a client, where no money has yet changed hands, as "money in" or "money out" when you try to look at a client account? So they end up confusing (a) novices, (b) me (and I've designed more than one highly successful MIS and accounting system), and I suspect (c) any accountants who try this out.
 
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To be fair its not that bad, but its definitely a beta and the work of developers.

I found a few issues...

It felt like I had to enter my details at least twice during the sign-up process.

Sometimes you'd click next, and find yourself landing back on the same page and having to click the button again - hoping for a different outcome (isn't that one sign of madness? lol ;) ).

I don't like the Reset Password process, it asks you for an email address (aka account) and for a replacement new password straight away. Then when you activate the email link, you land on a page to "activate" the password - entering the same password which you just picked. (So the only thing an attacker seems to need is access to your email) This I believe leaves your account at risk if your email account is compromised as it doesn't check your credentials further with intermediary questions.

When I logged in a second time, it didn't seem to recognise my existing account, asking me again to subscribe, when I click next it says duh you already have an account - lol - yes, please forward me to the app! :D

So what was I doing wrong? Well, I clicked the "Start Using" links (under the types of account are listed), and I picked Sage Live Billing. This link doesn't really mean "Start Using" but Start a (new) Subscription... You access the app by the one small link at the very top "My Sage". In that respect I didn't find it very intuitive. In fact this whole page is just a waste of space, the notes gadget is poor, and web search? I mean is it really needed?

It wouldn't be fair without commenting on the invoicing process. I like others found myself wondering how do I update an invoice to say its paid, I'm looking at the Sales Invoices window, but can find no way to update the Status field. The answer is in a separate window called "Receipt Invoices". This felt cumbersome and the process could be much better streamlined.

Anything else? lol... Urm yeah, the New Items (Service or Product) was a bit basic I suppose, but so were the Payment Terms options too.

Good things... Well this list is a bit smaller...

I like the integration with Google Docs, and I like the built in payment processing... But likewise you can see developer "check me out I'm great" bloat here too, as they added Google Docs, but I can't find any worthwhile reason to view or need ("Quick") access to your documents list in a separate window - when you're using a web browser (you can open Google Docs in a separate tab anyway), added to this you have no options other than to open the document. If you could pick a contact, and attach a file (Proposal, Contract or something) then it might have a little value... Anyways, the contact import/export is good.
 
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DuaneJackson said:
Certainly not going to be a threat to KashFlow or any of the other establised web-based offerings.
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Duane

Not sure how old you are but have you ever heard of two little companies who ruled the world of computing a few years ago with simular thoughts

Lotus 123
Wordperfect

Both had probably 90% of the business market if not higher
 
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Chris Ashdown said:
Duane

Not sure how old you are but have you ever heard of two little companies who ruled the world of computing a few years ago with simular thoughts

Lotus 123
Wordperfect

Both had probably 90% of the business market if not higher
Click to expand...

I'm not convinced by the analogy either.

And even if I were, as a counter argument one could cite Novell and IBM as companies which competely dominated their markets yet failed to cope with more nimble competitors that read the emerging markets for new products more accurately.
 
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All companies who thought they had no competition or assumed they would stay popular, Word was a cold start that took over in about 2 years, excell about the same

Every company is a threat to you, maybe not this year but could be next year

myself I would worry about microsoft as it will probably be the world leader in accounts in the next three years, and sage will be a threat as they have protx as part of their company which will be more of a bonus to them than paypal
 
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I'm pleasantly surprised to be cast in the analogy as the company to have it's market position threatened, rather than being the one doing the threatening.

True, every company is a threat. But this product from Sage isn't a threat in itself.

There's very litte they can do with ProTX that we can't do with either our PayPal relationship or with the guys at Iridium (who are the ones ProTX should be worried about)
 
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Just watch your back in the long term with sage, its been my hard earned experience that they are fully capable and willing to not just bend the rules, but break the law also in order to get what they want. They are very ruthless, and dont care who they trample on (or how) to get what they want.
 
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DuaneJackson said:
. But this product from Sage isn't a threat in itself.
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Duane

I would have thought the fact that the largest accounting software company in the uk chose to start from fresh rather than buy up an exsisting company like yourselves would indicate their seriousness in attacking the market you are in; and along with their massive marketing budgets. I would say thats a threat, but you know your market much better then I do
 
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Chris Ashdown said:
Duane

I would have thought the fact that the largest accounting software company in the uk chose to start from fresh rather than buy up an exsisting company like yourselves would indicate their seriousness in attacking the market you are in; and along with their massive marketing budgets. I would say thats a threat, but you know your market much better then I do
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Of course it is a threat to Duane, but it is also a vindication and an opportunity. I don't see why it makes that great a difference whether or not the incumbent supplier (Sage) chooses to develop its own or buy out an existing product, except that the choice of products to buy out isn't large in this case. Sage has a long history of both development and acquisition.

Furthermore your own earlier citation of Lotus and Wordperfect acts against your argument in this instance. Both of those companies were the vastly market-leading incumbents, with vast marketing budgets, and they both developed their own new-tech products that failed to have the impact that they'd hoped for when competing against an aggressive new rival (despite Wordperfect for Windows at least actually being rather good... ). Likewise Novell and IBM which were huge companies with total market domination and gigantic marketing clout that didn't react accurately to new challenges.
 
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