Clock in-out/Time & Attendance System. Unfair treatment?

[ch_ch]

Hello.

In the company I work was recently introduced a new time and attendance System where we have to clock in-out in the beginning, at the end of our shift and on our 2 breaks.

Now, my question is, as our company is split into 2 parts (offices and warehouse), is it fair only for the warehouse workers to be asked to clock in-out when the office staff don't have to?

The answer is that because in the warehouse there is overtime available etc, it helps with the payrolls but in the offices, the shift is standard 9-5 so they don't need it.

It is clear that they do it to make sure that people don't come to work late or go home earlier and also to make sure that we don't take longer breaks. Which makes sense.

But, isn't it classified as unfair treatment when office staff don't have to do it?

Can they force us to clock in and out if we refuse to do so unless the system is introduced to everyone?

 

[Newchodge]

Hello.

In the company I work was recently introduced a new time and attendance System where we have to clock in-out in the beginning, at the end of our shift and on our 2 breaks.

Now, my question is, as our company is split into 2 parts (offices and warehouse), is it fair only for the warehouse workers to be asked to clock in-out when the office staff don't have to?

The answer is that because in the warehouse there is overtime available etc, it helps with the payrolls but in the offices, the shift is standard 9-5 so they don't need it.

It is clear that they do it to make sure that people don't come to work late or go home earlier and also to make sure that we don't take longer breaks. Which makes sense.

But, isn't it classified as unfair treatment when office staff don't have to do it?

Can they force us to clock in and out if we refuse to do so unless the system is introduced to everyone?

No. It is not classed as unfair treatment. If you have issues in your workplace I suggest you join a union.

 

[ch_ch]

No. It is not classed as unfair treatment. If you have issues in your workplace I suggest you join a union.

Can you please clarify why this is not classed as unfair treatment when only a part of the employees have to clock in-out and another part hasn't?

 

[Newchodge]

Can you please clarify why this is not classed as unfair treatment when only a part of the employees have to clock in-out and another part hasn't?

No, if you want to doubt my professional opinion, please feel free. Join a union don't come to a forum for business owners.

 

[ch_ch]

No, if you want to doubt my professional opinion, please feel free. Join a union don't come to a forum for business owners.

You are being very rude for no reason.

I guess you are the type of employer who treats people unfairly without any explanation given.

I have seen a lot of threads with questions asked by employees. How does this happen if only business owners are allowed to join?

 

[IanSuth]

Can you please clarify why this is not classed as unfair treatment when only a part of the employees have to clock in-out and another part hasn't?

Simply put

Waged vs salaried

One group paid by the hour one lot paid by the month

 

[Newchodge]

Simply put

Waged vs salaried

One group paid by the hour one lot paid by the month

Or lack of protected characteristic.

 

[IanSuth]

Or lack of protected characteristic.

i was thinking only argument would be something like - indirect sex discrimination if office vs shop floor has a significantly different demographic

 

[Newchodge]

i was thinking only argument would be something like - indirect sex discrimination if office vs shop floor has a significantly different demographic

But there is justification in the differing access to overtime.

 

[ch_ch]

Simply put

Waged vs salaried

One group paid by the hour one lot paid by the month

We get paid monthly. The only difference is that we are allowed to do overtime.

Clocking in and out for breaks is clearly not for payroll purposes but to make sure we don't take longer breaks.

If I take a shorter break to catch up with work, I am not getting paid more.

And if they want to make sure that there is not time theft by employees this shouldn't only be the case for the warehouse workers but also the office staff from what we have seen, they take more breaks than they are allowed.

This is why it feels unfair. We all should get paid for the hours we work. And if they want to tackle the time theft issue, they should introduce the Time and attendance system to everyone.

 

[fisicx]

Can you please clarify why this is not classed as unfair treatment when only a part of the employees have to clock in-out and another part hasn't?

Nothing unusual about this. Many places require shift workers to clock in and out but not office staff.

As suggested, join a union and get them to represent you in your complaint.

Can't actually see what the problem is. If you turn up on time and don't take extended breaks why is there an issue?

 

[ch_ch]

Nothing unusual about this. Many places require shift workers to clock in and out but not office staff.

As suggested, join a union and get them to represent you in your complaint.

Can't actually see what the problem is. If you turn up on time and don't take extended breaks why is there an issue?

The issue is that I don't feel this is fair.

All my colleagues feel the same but are afraid to talk because they don't want to lose their job.

I am always on time and often take shorter breaks. But sometimes if you forget something in your locker or need to go back to take something from your bag you have to send an email to contact the operations admin team. Which for me is such a hassle to do for just being 3 minutes late. Especially when people always show up early.

At the same time, office staff workers take a break whenever they want to go grab a coffee or smoke and also get back to work without the constant stress of no forgetting to clock in and out.

It just feels completely unfair.

 

[IanSuth]

The issue is that I don't feel this is fair.

All my colleagues feel the same but are afraid to talk because they don't want to lose their job.

I am always on time and often take shorter breaks. But sometimes if you forget something in your locker or need to go back to take something from your bag you have to send an email to contact the operations admin team. Which for me is such a hassle to do for just being 3 minutes late. Especially when people always show up early.

At the same time, office staff workers take a break whenever they want to go grab a coffee or smoke and also get back to work without the constant stress of no forgetting to clock in and out.

It just feels completely unfair.

then leave

 

[ch_ch]

then leave

Well, if this is the solution for you, that's fine.

But having to pick between being treated unfair or leave your job is not the way it works for me.

My position allows me to influence people and empower them and also encourage them to refuse clocking in and out until the system is introduced to the whole company.

Making a formal complain and refuse to be treated unfair is the way to go.

If they end up firing all of us, well, let's see who will lose from that.

 

[fisicx]

It just feels completely unfair.

How you feel is irrelevant. There is no law preventing the company requiring you to clock in and out.

If you think you have a case against the company get your union involved.

 

[ch_ch]

How you feel is irrelevant. There is no law preventing the company requiring you to clock in and out.

If you think you have a case against the company get your union involved.

If we talk about law, then when I signed my contract the time and attendance system was not mentioned.

 

[IanSuth]

Well, if this is the solution for you, that's fine.

But having to pick between being treated unfair or leave your job is not the way it works for me.

My position allows me to influence people and empower them and also encourage them to refuse clocking in and out until the system is introduced to the whole company.

Making a formal complain and refuse to be treated unfair is the way to go.

If they end up firing all of us, well, let's see who will lose from that.

So what you are suggesting is recreating a union - why not just join one and use their collective bargaining experience. You could be the shop steward

 

[DontAsk]

We get paid monthly. The only difference is that we are allowed to do overtime.

You might be paid monthly, but are you on an hourly rate? Are the office staff hourly or salaried?

We had this scheme at Plessey (unionised) back in the 80s. Shopfloor, hourly paid, staff were required to clock in/out. Salaried office staff were only required to clock if we were claiming overtime, for which the first 15 min were unpaid.

There was a pressure mat under the shopfloor telephone, connected to a light above. Staff were allowed to make urgent calls, but could only leave their station if the light was off. Stopped any work shy employees from queuing to use the 'phone.

 

[Newchodge]

If we talk about law, then when I signed my contract the time and attendance system was not mentioned.

If we talk about law there is NOTHING in employment law that requires that what your employer does meets your assessment of fairness.

 

[IanSuth]

If we talk about law, then when I signed my contract the time and attendance system was not mentioned.

No need to be

The contract said usual hours of work - the T&A system is the method of recording adherence to those. It is likely in the employee handbook |(or equivalent), the contract likely also didn't include how you book holiday or the rules on expenses claim back either.

I used to do a lot of work recruiting system implementation managers for Kronos (huge T&A provider now called UKG), it was not unusual for the parameters to be set that as soon as you were 2 mins late you would be docked 15mins

 

[ch_ch]

No need to be

The contract said usual hours of work - the T&A system is the method of recording adherence to those. It is likely in the employee handbook |(or equivalent), the contract likely also didn't include how you book holiday or the rules on expenses claim back either.

I used to do a lot of work recruiting system implementation managers for Kronos (huge T&A provider now called UKG), it was not unusual for the parameters to be set that as soon as you were 2 mins late you would be docked 15mins

Same for us but with a 3-minute "grace period".
They have probably tackled time theft to a degree but I was always the one to show up early and go home 1-2 minutes late. Now I am always on time (not a minute early) and use my 3-minute "grace period" per day to go home 3 minutes earlier. So, they actually lose 15 minutes per week from me and many other workers like me.

Being seen as unfair and also winning nothing from that. Fair enough.

 

[ch_ch]

So what you are suggesting is recreating a union - why not just join one and use their collective bargaining experience. You could be the shop steward

Thanks for the suggestion.

Do I have to pick a local trade union or any?

 

[Newchodge]

Thanks for the suggestion.

Do I have to pick a local trade union or any?

If your employer does not recognise a specific union, contact your regional TUC office and ask which is the most appropriate to join.

 

[NicoJ]

---

I can give you an accounting reason for this. The direct costs (I.e. the workers directly manufacturing or handling products) have to be measured for a couple of reasons. Efficiency and cost.

Clocking in and out should give a reasonable level of certainty over how long the process should take which will then feed into accounting / management reports to ensure the items are correctly costed and resources (i.e. wages) are being utilised efficiently.

Indirect costs - office staff are sunk costs. They don't directly affect the product and therefore there is no reason to record this.

Often one set of workers look at a different sector and think they are "getting away" with something or not working as hard as they are. The reality is that you (and they) don't understand the different aspects of work and how they correlate.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

No, if you want to doubt my professional opinion, please feel free. Join a union don't come to a forum for business owners.

Absofeckinlutly
This is the only thing that winds me up on here Employees asking trade union questions
We sack people and have little sympathy
Your boss has invested everything he or she has and will only see sleepless nights with financial worries until they hit year 30

You have not shown any concern for your bosses or how they are doing
Why not?
This is a business forum and I really would love to understand your train of thought asking the right honourable members on here

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Can they force us to clock in and out if we refuse to do so unless the system is introduced to everyone?

Yes and if you dont like it feck off up the road

 

[ctrlbrk]

Yes and if you dont like it feck off up the road

The Rt. Hon. Member from Devon has spoken ?

 

[ch_ch]

Absofeckinlutly
This is the only thing that winds me up on here Employees asking trade union questions
We sack people and have little sympathy
Your boss has invested everything he or she has and will only see sleepless nights with financial worries until they hit year 30

You have not shown any concern for your bosses or how they are doing
Why not?
This is a business forum and I really would love to understand your train of thought asking the right honourable members on here

I don't wonder why your employees wouldn't show any concern for their "boss".
Nobody would care for a "boss" with this attitude. (By the way it is called Employer).
Not our problem if you are not sleeping at night.
I do my job and give my 100% to my managers and I always have a can-do attitude.

BUT if they act like little b****es crying about how hard is to be a boss and give ZERO shit about how we feel, sorry, but I am not interested to be their psychoanalyst. And this is how good workers with skills start looking for jobs somewhere else and bosses like you end up with unhappy, uninterested workers.

Their loss. Not ours. The relationship between employee and employer is a give-take relationship.
I give my hard work to you so you earn money and you pay me for that.

I don't have to treat you like a God and you don't have to either.
Only need to appreciate each other to do their best to feel comfortable and be treated fairly.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

I don't wonder why your employees wouldn't show any concern for their "boss".
Nobody would care for a "boss" with this attitude. (By the way it is called Employer).
Not our problem if you are not sleeping at night.
I do my job and give my 100% to my managers and I always have a can-do attitude.

BUT if they act like little b****es crying about how hard is to be a boss and give ZERO **** about how we feel, sorry, but I am not interested to be their psychoanalyst. And this is how good workers with skills start looking for jobs somewhere else and bosses like you end up with unhappy, uninterested workers.

Their loss. Not ours. The relationship between employee and employer is a give-take relationship.
I give my hard work to you so you earn money and you pay me for that.

I don't have to treat you like a God and you don't have to either.
Only need to appreciate each other to do their best to feel comfortable and be treated fairl

Your boss might be a member on here and why would we support your case and not his?

 

[ch_ch]

Your boss might be a member on here and why would we support your case and not his?

I don’t have a boss.
I have a line manager and an employer.

I don’t want to steal time off him.
I don’t want to be paid and sneak out early or take extended breaks. Because I respect my line manager and he’s supportive. And there’s not much he can do about the clock in system.
What I say is that clocking in and out should be for everyone because at the moment, the people’s in the office just eat,drink and smoked all day.
I just don’t understand the logic of only tracking the people who work in the warehouse.

 

[DontAsk]

You never answered the questions: Are you on an hourly rate? Are the office staff on hourly rate or salary?

If the office staff just "eat,drink and smoked all day" then that's what you should bring up with management, not the time-keeping system.

 

[ctrlbrk]

I just don’t understand the logic of only tracking the people who work in the warehouse.

And yet workers on production lines are the only ones working shifts, while employee don't.

 

[Newchodge]

And yet workers on production lines are the only ones working shifts, while employee don't.

It seems very unfair that office workers cannot get overtime.

 

[IanSuth]

It seems very unfair that office workers cannot get overtime.

I was never able to in an office job - it was always "your normal hours are 9-5.50 but you may be expected to work more if required to get the work done" before the days of everyone having answer phones and emails I was spending a couple of hours a night using my personal landline to ring applicants about jobs as they couldn't speak at work. No overtime pay and no expenses to cover the phone bill either, was normal in the industry

 

[NicoJ]

I just don’t understand the logic of only tracking the people who work in the warehouse.

Did you read my post?

 

[ch_ch]

You never answered the questions: Are you on an hourly rate? Are the office staff on hourly rate or salary?

If the office staff just "eat,drink and smoked all day" then that's what you should bring up with management, not the time-keeping system.

My contract is Monday-Friday 6am-2pm xyz amount annual rate.

Everyone knows what office staff does and act like nothing’s wrong because they make sales.

This is why it’s unfair. Because there’s favouritism.

 

[Newchodge]

My contract is Monday-Friday 6am-2pm xyz amount annual rate.

Everyone knows what office staff does and act like nothing’s wrong because they make sales.

This is why it’s unfair. Because there’s favouritism.

That's life, I'm afraid.

 

[fisicx]

My contract is Monday-Friday 6am-2pm xyz amount annual rate.

Everyone knows what office staff does and act like nothing’s wrong because they make sales.

This is why it’s unfair. Because there’s favouritism.

Maybe unfair but still doesn’t change the fact that you will need to clock in and out and the office staff won’t.

 

[DontAsk]

I was never able to in an office job -

I got overtime for the first few years. Then at a certain pay grade "M for management" you got a pay rise, BUPA and loss of overtime.

 

[DontAsk]

Everyone knows what office staff does and act like nothing’s wrong because they make sales.

This is why it’s unfair. Because there’s favouritism.

It's not favouritism, or discrimination, it's a different system for different jobs. BTDTGTTS.