Someone explain this to me

[japancool]

So it seems like we're all getting £400 off our energy bills. This will partly be paid for by a windfall tax on the energy companies.

So why do we need a windfall tax, which will then be returned to the energy companies through the discount on bills? Why don't the government just force the energy companies to reduce bills by X amount in return for NOT imposing a windfall tax on them?

 

[UkAppCoder]

So it seems like we're all getting £400 off our energy bills. This will partly be paid for by a windfall tax on the energy companies.

So why do we need a windfall tax, which will then be returned to the energy companies through the discount on bills? Why don't the government just force the energy companies to reduce bills by X amount in return for NOT imposing a windfall tax on them?

The vast majority of households will not spend it on energy. Most people are able to withstand the energy increase and pay their bills without this handout.

Some people won't spend the money at all; it will remain in their bank accounts. Most people will spend it, which will stimulate the economy.

Of course there is a risk of increasing the rate of inflation, but it wouldn't surprise me if Sunak has more bizarre ideas to mitigate this.

IIRC, Sunak has a first in economics, doesn't he? However, I have found some of his past reasoning a little weak. He is anti-EU, which I like, but some of his arguments during the Brexit years were quite weak. Please don't ask me for examples, I can't remember any now; I just remember wishing he wasn't on our team because he was being shot down too easily.

But anyway, we keep forgetting that this is just another big payday for the 1%. This happens approximately every 10 years. Quite obviously, Boris, Sunak, and a couple of others on the big biz appeasement team have been talking, with Boris telling the big boys in the energy companies something along the following lines:

"Allright lads we agreed that this decade it would be your turn to get the lion's share of the big payout and we've done that but we've gone a bit too far this time and we need to pull some of it back because some people reckon they're having to die of hypothermia while eating or suffer from bad nutrition while keeping warm which is exacerbating the NHS problems and getting us a bad name and so sorry we're going to have to have some of that money back to address the problems so c'mon lads you've made a lot of extra money as we promised but really we're gonna be kicked out at the next election if we don't do something to appease these proles who just won't stop bubbling and crying about how they're all having to eat or heat and use food banks and stuff and yes lads I know that Rishi looks ridiculous in that silly tight suit walking around like Norman Wisdom but he has a brown face which means that nobody will criticise him too much for fear of being called a racist and that's how we've got away with it so easily."

 

[japancool]

The vast majority of households will not spend it on energy. Most people are able to withstand the energy increase and pay their bills without this handout.

They will, because this money is being applied as a deduction off their bills, rather than a monetary grant.

 

[UkAppCoder]

They will, because this money is being applied as a deduction off their bills, rather than a monetary grant.

Okay, thanks for that. I wasn't aware of this and I think my reasoning was a little out too.

Anyway, look again at your initial post:

japancool said:
So it seems like we're all getting £400 off our energy bills. This will partly be paid for by a windfall tax on the energy companies.

So why do we need a windfall tax, which will then be returned to the energy companies through the discount on bills?

Why don't the government just force the energy companies to reduce bills by X amount in return for NOT imposing a windfall tax on them?

The premise in the middle line is false because not all of it will be returned. The chancellor is left with a difference, which is probably the answer to your question.

Of course we could ask why the chancellor couldn't simply tax them the difference and force them to reduce their prices, but I don't think government intervention of this nature would be compatible with our capitalist system. We would have a government dictating the prices of private companies. We'd be on our way to nationalisation.

 

[alan1302]

So why do we need a windfall tax, which will then be returned to the energy companies through the discount on bills??

Is the windfall tax not on oil companies like Shell/BP etc, whilst you get electric gas from the likes of EON/British Gas that aren't included in the windfall tax?

 

[japancool]

Is the windfall tax not on oil companies like Shell/BP etc, whilst you get electric gas from the likes of EON/British Gas that aren't included in the windfall tax?

That would appear to be the missing piece.

 

[WaveJumper]

And let us not forget this is not just about high energy costs as alluded to above many people are being forced not only in to energy poverty but facing higher prices right across the board for every day items and don’t get me started on the 199 a litre I had to pay for fuel last night it’s effecting a lot of people and those who think they maybe riding out the storm now may get a rude awakening come this winter.

As in everything the government does its slight of hand while your watching one hand the other is taking if you were one of those who was getting a fuel poverty allowance and now dropped in favour of the new scheme your apparently ten pounds worse off.

People are right to be sceptical about the numbers like others have commented once you start drilling down into the detail you wonder who really is getting the better deal, and I bet it’s not us.

 

[UkAppCoder]

alan1302 said:
Is the windfall tax not on oil companies like Shell/BP etc, whilst you get electric gas from the likes of EON/British Gas that aren't included in the windfall tax?

japancool said:
That would appear to be the missing piece.

As far as I can see, all you've done is expand the supply chain. Where is the missing piece? Am I missing something?

Can't see how this really make any difference to your original question. Shell, BP, etc. are the producers. E-ON, British Gas, etc. are the retailers. Just Googled and it appears that about 80% of our energy still comes from fossil fuels (oil, gas, etc.).

I think the government have overshot on the latest 10-yearly money grab, and are now having to balance the situation in order to recover their poll ratings and commence their journey towards winning the next election. Yes, there is a shortage in the market which drives prices up, but France, Germany, etc. mitigated the pain for their people whereas the UK are still doing as little as they can get away with. In fact, they are now boasting about their brilliant rescue job! LOL!

 

[japancool]

if you were one of those who was getting a fuel poverty allowance

I have never heard of a "fuel poverty allowance". The scheme that was dropped was a £200 loan that was to be repaid over 5 years. Now you get £400 which does not have to be paid back.

 

[WaveJumper]

There was a 500m pound fund set aside for local councils to distribute to those in need ………. And by the time many realised help was available (means tested of course) the funds had all gone in a flash.

As mentioned in previous post whilst one scheme starts others appear to disappear and I and not referring to the previous £200 loan we were all getting

 

[japancool]

There was a 500m pound fund set aside for local councils to distribute to those in need ………. And by the time many realised help was available (means tested of course) the funds had all gone in a flash.

As mentioned in previous post whilst one scheme starts others appear to disappear and I and not referring to the previous £200 loan we were all getting

The Household Support Fund, which you appear to be referring to, has been increased to £1.5 billion.

Household Support Fund extended with another £500m available - how to apply

The Household Support Fund is available for struggling families and includes money towards your bills and supermarket vouchers. However, the support does vary between councils - as well as the eligibility criteria

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[The Byre]

IIRC, Sunak has a first in economics, doesn't he?

No. He is yet another PPE grad and PPE is the Oxbridge answer to Media Studies. But yes, he did get a first. He then did an MBA at Stanford and was an analyst at Goldman Sachs - so other than the E in PPE, no fundamental studies in Economics. That is roughly the equivalent of having an Economics A-Level.

The problem with postgraduate qualifications is they do not give the person an education in the broad fundamentals of that subject - that is the role of a graduate education. I see that a lot in PPE graduates who then go on to get higher qualifications in some associated fields such as banking or business studies but still do not understand the basics of economics - and monetary economics in particular.

I think the government have overshot on the latest 10-yearly money grab, and are now having to balance the situation in order to recover their poll ratings and commence their journey towards winning the next election.

Conservative MPs were warned this week at a (not very) secret away-day to be ready for a general election - in autumn next year - by David Canzini (BJ's new Chief of Staff) to the Red Wall Tory MPs at the party's away-day in Hinckley, Leicestershire on Wednesday. "You have to be general election-ready by autumn 2023" he told them. Also, a new anti-Lib-Dem campaign department has been formed.

Party Chairman Oliver Dowden told that meeting that the party's new Leeds HQ was now open and ready to support campaigning in the Red Wall seats and explained his new 80-20 strategy to win the next election by holding onto 80 Tory seats and winning a further 20 seats.

I still think that May 2024 is still the most probable date for the next general election - but Canzini and other members of the Tory high command want to be ready for an election next autumn. Here is how it might play out - boundary changes go through in July 2023 (possibly giving the Tories a net gain of ten seats). MPs would sit in September 2023 to enact the changes and then hold an election in October.

This is all in no small part to distract from growing discontent with Johnson within the party. The number of Conservative MPs putting in letters of no confidence in the Prime Minister is growing ever closer to that 54 tipping point! Guestimates range from low 30s to low 40s so far. Many MPs are waiting for the by-elections in Wakefield (Red Wall) and Tiverton (Tory heartland) on June 23 before deciding whether to dump him or not.

If the Tories lose both - to Labour and the Liberal Democrats respectively - many more letters of no confidence will probably go in. Johnson is lucky that Parliament is now in recess and the political temperature will cool down, but it may not be enough to stop a vote of no confidence in him before the July recess.

 

[japancool]

I believe the last Chancellor to have an economics background was Nigel Lawson.

 

[Newchodge]

No. He is yet another PPE grad and PPE is the Oxbridge answer to Media Studies. But yes, he did get a first. He then did an MBA at Stanford and was an analyst at Goldman Sachs - so other than the E in PPE, no fundamental studies in Economics. That is roughly the equivalent of having an Economics A-Level.

The problem with postgraduate qualifications is they do not give the person an education in the broad fundamentals of that subject - that is the role of a graduate education. I see that a lot in PPE graduates who then go on to get higher qualifications in some associated fields such as banking or business studies but still do not understand the basics of economics - and monetary economics in particular.

Conservative MPs were warned this week at a (not very) secret away-day to be ready for a general election - in autumn next year - by David Canzini (BJ's new Chief of Staff) to the Red Wall Tory MPs at the party's away-day in Hinckley, Leicestershire on Wednesday. "You have to be general election-ready by autumn 2023" he told them. Also, a new anti-Lib-Dem campaign department has been formed.

Party Chairman Oliver Dowden told that meeting that the party's new Leeds HQ was now open and ready to support campaigning in the Red Wall seats and explained his new 80-20 strategy to win the next election by holding onto 80 Tory seats and winning a further 20 seats.

I still think that May 2024 is still the most probable date for the next general election - but Canzini and other members of the Tory high command want to be ready for an election next autumn. Here is how it might play out - boundary changes go through in July 2023 (possibly giving the Tories a net gain of ten seats). MPs would sit in September 2023 to enact the changes and then hold an election in October.

This is all in no small part to distract from growing discontent with Johnson within the party. The number of Conservative MPs putting in letters of no confidence in the Prime Minister is growing ever closer to that 54 tipping point! Guestimates range from low 30s to low 40s so far. Many MPs are waiting for the by-elections in Wakefield (Red Wall) and Tiverton (Tory heartland) on June 23 before deciding whether to dump him or not.

If the Tories lose both - to Labour and the Liberal Democrats respectively - many more letters of no confidence will probably go in. Johnson is lucky that Parliament is now in recess and the political temperature will cool down, but it may not be enough to stop a vote of no confidence in him before the July recess.

October is a good month for the Tories to hold an election. Thousands of students will have just gone to university and not have had time to sort out voter registration. Students tend not to vote for the Conservatives.

 

[UkAppCoder]

No. He is yet another PPE grad and PPE is the Oxbridge answer to Media Studies. But yes, he did get a first. He then did an MBA at Stanford and was an analyst at Goldman Sachs - so other than the E in PPE, no fundamental studies in Economics. That is roughly the equivalent of having an Economics A-Level.

The problem with postgraduate qualifications is they do not give the person an education in the broad fundamentals of that subject - that is the role of a graduate education. I see that a lot in PPE graduates who then go on to get higher qualifications in some associated fields such as banking or business studies but still do not understand the basics of economics - and monetary economics in particular.

Conservative MPs were warned this week at a (not very) secret away-day to be ready for a general election - in autumn next year - by David Canzini (BJ's new Chief of Staff) to the Red Wall Tory MPs at the party's away-day in Hinckley, Leicestershire on Wednesday. "You have to be general election-ready by autumn 2023" he told them. Also, a new anti-Lib-Dem campaign department has been formed.

Party Chairman Oliver Dowden told that meeting that the party's new Leeds HQ was now open and ready to support campaigning in the Red Wall seats and explained his new 80-20 strategy to win the next election by holding onto 80 Tory seats and winning a further 20 seats.

I still think that May 2024 is still the most probable date for the next general election - but Canzini and other members of the Tory high command want to be ready for an election next autumn. Here is how it might play out - boundary changes go through in July 2023 (possibly giving the Tories a net gain of ten seats). MPs would sit in September 2023 to enact the changes and then hold an election in October.

This is all in no small part to distract from growing discontent with Johnson within the party. The number of Conservative MPs putting in letters of no confidence in the Prime Minister is growing ever closer to that 54 tipping point! Guestimates range from low 30s to low 40s so far. Many MPs are waiting for the by-elections in Wakefield (Red Wall) and Tiverton (Tory heartland) on June 23 before deciding whether to dump him or not.

If the Tories lose both - to Labour and the Liberal Democrats respectively - many more letters of no confidence will probably go in. Johnson is lucky that Parliament is now in recess and the political temperature will cool down, but it may not be enough to stop a vote of no confidence in him before the July recess.

Great post, Andrew. When are we going to see you on the tele? I reckon all channels would/should use you as a political commentator/analyst!

I've fallen out with Boris a couple of times in the past, but I've always ended up making friends with him - due in no small part to the sheer nastiness on the opposition benches.

This time has been a little different, and somewhat longer-lasting. However, I still couldn't bring myself to vote for Labour or the Lib Dems. Labour seem devoid of any real ideas or alternative solutions; the Lib Dems still seem to be as bizarre as ever; and both are just so woke that even many of the people on whose behalf they are being woke are embarrassed!

Regarding education, I think just about anyone would agree that any Chancellor of the Exchequer should have at least an upper 2:1 BSc or BA degree, but a 'country' as defined in our capitalist system is not an organisation in the traditional sense. A chancellor needs to spend most of his/her time being politically charismatic, cunning, etc., while the real economic experts get on with the job of providing a wide choice of economic strategies from which the chancellor, the PM, and other members of the cabinet, can choose. Note that this supports the '10-yearly money grab theory', which I believe is very real.

I don't entirely disagree with these money-grabs. They keep people working and economies moving, and thus create great wealth. I just wish they could be more generous with their wealth and keep the wealth gap small enough to impart some dignity to those less fortunate. The vast majority of people are not really interested in being super-rich - they just want to feel secure and receive a fair day's pay for a fair day's work.

And this is the reason why I think that the Conservatives will need the rest of the term to recover. Even then, I think they may have gone too far this time because there are other issues on top of the 'cost of living' crisis, such as the migration issue. People are absolutely livid about this, but they won't/can't talk about it for fear of being called racist.

 

[Mr D]

So it seems like we're all getting £400 off our energy bills. This will partly be paid for by a windfall tax on the energy companies.

So why do we need a windfall tax, which will then be returned to the energy companies through the discount on bills? Why don't the government just force the energy companies to reduce bills by X amount in return for NOT imposing a windfall tax on them?

Presuming a billion or so is raised in this windfall tax - due to their accountants telling the companies taxed how to reduce their tax liability and plenty of profit not being due to UK government anyway.
The rest raised by borrowing.

Sure, £400 additional credit to my electricity bill is nice and all. My overall bills this year will go up by far more than that and the £400 will be paid within 6 months of October this year, going forward.
And what about next year? I'm expecting to pay out over £5k extra next year than I was initially planning for this year. Sure, by then I can get the £400 from British Gas paid to my bank account.

Free money is always nice. Just not anywhere near enough help.

 

[Mr D]

No. He is yet another PPE grad and PPE is the Oxbridge answer to Media Studies. But yes, he did get a first. He then did an MBA at Stanford and was an analyst at Goldman Sachs - so other than the E in PPE, no fundamental studies in Economics. That is roughly the equivalent of having an Economics A-Level.

The problem with postgraduate qualifications is they do not give the person an education in the broad fundamentals of that subject - that is the role of a graduate education. I see that a lot in PPE graduates who then go on to get higher qualifications in some associated fields such as banking or business studies but still do not understand the basics of economics - and monetary economics in particular.

So, an analyst.
Presumably the long training and considerable experience analysts get? Not just book learning that universities give in a subject but dealing with real world problems and real world analysis.
Rather more than A level.

 

[OMGVape]

How about using Russian sanctioned gold and rubles to subsidise high energy costs.

 

[The Byre]

So, an analyst.
Presumably the long training and considerable experience analysts get? Not just book learning that universities give in a subject but dealing with real world problems and real world analysis.
Rather more than A level.

Analysing companies' balance sheets is not economics.

I've fallen out with Boris a couple of times in the past, but I've always ended up making friends with him - due in no small part to the sheer nastiness on the opposition benches.

I know someone who campaigned with him and was even on that silly bus with him and he got so fed-up with Johnson that he has now left the Tory party.

Labour seem devoid of any real ideas or alternative solutions; the Lib Dems still seem to be as bizarre as ever; and both are just so woke that even many of the people on whose behalf they are being woke are embarrassed!

I'm waiting for them to campaign for women's-only gravity on Tuesdays!

Regarding education, I think just about anyone would agree that any Chancellor of the Exchequer should have at least an upper 2:1 BSc or BA degree, but a 'country' as defined in our capitalist system is not an organisation in the traditional sense. A chancellor needs to spend most of his/her time being politically charismatic, cunning, etc., while the real economic experts get on with the job of providing a wide choice of economic strategies from which the chancellor, the PM, and other members of the cabinet, can choose.

I don't care if someone has a college education or not - it's often totally bogus anyway and most courses are just a giant rip-off. Everyone jokes about Media Studies, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. Just think of Music Technology, Film Studies and all the diversity and social studies courses that go nowhere.

A chancellor can be self-taught or have a doctorate from Cambridge for all I care - what I want to know is do they have a complete grasp of their brief? I know a woman who studied German and took that all the way to a doctorate in German Literature - she is very far from being fluent in German. A formal education does not mean much anymore! But just as J. writing Winamp and Reaper lives, eats and breathes code (C++ in particular) I expect a chancellor to understand why helicopter money (stimmies, furlough payments, grants, etc.) are inflationary when paid for by QE.

They do not have to have some magic formal education, but he or she must understand why QE itself is inflationary if it is not followed by QT (quantitative tightening - i.e. reducing the balance sheet at the BoE).

Inflation is a sneaky tax on the poor and the middle classes - the wage earners and those on fixed transfer incomes such as benefits. Central banks print money and destroy the value of their incomes and raise the cost of their mortgages and rents. MV=PY - it's the law!

And the indexes for CPI and RPI are bogus anyway because they keep changing the basket of goods and services. The ONS claims that the changes are made to reflect changes in people's choices - conveniently forgetting that they are making new choices because prices are going up (or down in a few rare cases). The £20 Sunday joint is replaced by the £5 Sunday chicken.

The one issue that will trip this government up and cause them to lose the next election is the coming economic crisis. A massive debt tsunami is slowly rolling out across Planet Earth and there is a real possibility that the UK could end up looking like Sri Lanka - strikes, civil unrest, riots. When people cannot eat, they start throwing things, looting shops and setting fire to policemen.

The World Bank claims that 11 developing countries are about to default on their debts and that 70 will have to default in the long run. Lebanon is on the brink of all-out civil war as food costs are now eleven times what they were two years ago. If no grain comes from Ukraine, Egypt could go the same way.

Remember that it was the financial crisis that did it for the Labour government. Their chancellor/PM fell for the lies told to him by bankers. He understood nothing. How could he? His claim to fame was a doctorate in the history of Socialism in the UK.

 

[japancool]

there is a real possibility that the UK could end up looking like Sri Lanka - strikes, civil unrest, riots. When people cannot eat, they start throwing things, looting shops and setting fire to policemen.

Well, all those train drivers on 50k a year have gone on strike.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

If its coming of bills, what happens if you don't have gas but use heating oil where every top up xcan be with a different supplier

Gas and elec are easy to control and give th discount but not heating oil which has also gone up astronomically

 

[Mr D]

Analysing companies' balance sheets is not economics.

I know someone who campaigned with him and was even on that silly bus with him and he got so fed-up with Johnson that he has now left the Tory party.

I'm waiting for them to campaign for women's-only gravity on Tuesdays!

I don't care if someone has a college education or not - it's often totally bogus anyway and most courses are just a giant rip-off. Everyone jokes about Media Studies, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. Just think of Music Technology, Film Studies and all the diversity and social studies courses that go nowhere.

A chancellor can be self-taught or have a doctorate from Cambridge for all I care - what I want to know is do they have a complete grasp of their brief? I know a woman who studied German and took that all the way to a doctorate in German Literature - she is very far from being fluent in German. A formal education does not mean much anymore! But just as J. writing Winamp and Reaper lives, eats and breathes code (C++ in particular) I expect a chancellor to understand why helicopter money (stimmies, furlough payments, grants, etc.) are inflationary when paid for by QE.

They do not have to have some magic formal education, but he or she must understand why QE itself is inflationary if it is not followed by QT (quantitative tightening - i.e. reducing the balance sheet at the BoE).

Inflation is a sneaky tax on the poor and the middle classes - the wage earners and those on fixed transfer incomes such as benefits. Central banks print money and destroy the value of their incomes and raise the cost of their mortgages and rents. MV=PY - it's the law!

And the indexes for CPI and RPI are bogus anyway because they keep changing the basket of goods and services. The ONS claims that the changes are made to reflect changes in people's choices - conveniently forgetting that they are making new choices because prices are going up (or down in a few rare cases). The £20 Sunday joint is replaced by the £5 Sunday chicken.

The one issue that will trip this government up and cause them to lose the next election is the coming economic crisis. A massive debt tsunami is slowly rolling out across Planet Earth and there is a real possibility that the UK could end up looking like Sri Lanka - strikes, civil unrest, riots. When people cannot eat, they start throwing things, looting shops and setting fire to policemen.

The World Bank claims that 11 developing countries are about to default on their debts and that 70 will have to default in the long run. Lebanon is on the brink of all-out civil war as food costs are now eleven times what they were two years ago. If no grain comes from Ukraine, Egypt could go the same way.

Remember that it was the financial crisis that did it for the Labour government. Their chancellor/PM fell for the lies told to him by bankers. He understood nothing. How could he? His claim to fame was a doctorate in the history of Socialism in the UK.

Analysis requires a lot of information from usually multiple sources.
Rather more understanding of economics needed than what university teaches? Probably.
I know a little of the professional qualifications in the field. Not something that everyone can pass with a few books read.

 

[Mr D]

Well, all those train drivers on 50k a year have gone on strike.

Really?
I hadn't noticed. Must be 5 years since last went on a train. May well be another dozen years before I will do so again.
Buses are slow - they are usually a LOT more reliable than train.

Those ex drivers that used to be on good money, what will they do when the rail service doesn't need more than a few thousand of them?

 

[Mr D]

How about using Russian sanctioned gold and rubles to subsidise high energy costs.

The rabid public won't let government get away with that. The public must punish the Russians regardless of the cost to themselves or the 6 point odd other billion people on the planet.

 

[japancool]

If its coming of bills, what happens if you don't have gas but use heating oil where every top up xcan be with a different supplier

Switch to electric heating?

 

[MBE2017]

“The price cap on default tariffs has been predicted to rise to £3,420 in October and then £3,850 in January next year after wholesale gas and power prices hit new record highs on Tuesday (26 July). Based on typical consumption patterns, BFY said this would mean the average dual fuel consumer paying by direct debit would face a bill of more than £500 for January alone.” Utility Week.

I can see this being a poll tax riot moment heading the Governments way, the news will be showing frozen elderly begging to be jailed just so they can be warm and receive three meals a day.

Time to bin the green policies of which 90% are counterproductive IMO, and concentrate on energy security and a national home insulation scheme.

 

[Newchodge]

“The price cap on default tariffs has been predicted to rise to £3,420 in October and then £3,850 in January next year after wholesale gas and power prices hit new record highs on Tuesday (26 July). Based on typical consumption patterns, BFY said this would mean the average dual fuel consumer paying by direct debit would face a bill of more than £500 for January alone.” Utility Week.

I can see this being a poll tax riot moment heading the Governments way, the news will be showing frozen elderly begging to be jailed just so they can be warm and receive three meals a day.

Time to bin the green policies of which 90% are counterproductive IMO, and concentrate on energy security and a national home insulation scheme.

I would suggest concentratin on energy nationalisation and a national home insulation scheme, and one that is not limited to home owners.

I think this is likely to cause the poll tax riots https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62330190

 

[The Byre]

I would suggest concentratin on energy nationalisation and a national home insulation scheme, and one that is not limited to home owners.

Why do people need a scheme? I don't get it! I double-insulated my house a few years back and am saving more than the cost of the insulation every year. As for tenants - make it illegal to rent out uninsulated housing and offices. End of story!

When it comes to insulation, the UK isn't yet in the 20th century, never mind having a stab at entering the 21st!

As for nationalisation - here we go! Back to the post-war madness of Atlee and Co. and the bungling ineptitude of the Wilson and Callahan administrations. Nationalising industries hardly makes them function any better - just look at the unholy mess that is the NHS!

The NHS is a wonderful example of just how bad governments are at running anything! Or have you forgotten the disaster and death of the British car industry as a result of being nationalised?

This present government cannot even run itself - let alone hope that it could run something as complex and price sensitive as energy!

Imagine a bunch of civil servants - people who have opted to avoid all real responsibility for their own lives and incomes by getting 'safe' jobs with generous pensions - trying to run an entire industry! It would end up like the British Leyland Motor Corporation - bust!

Oh! But don't worry! They will be guided by those grasping, mendacious, back-stabbing, cheating and profoundly intellectually challenged narcissistic infants we call politicians!

Well, that's alright then!

 

[Newchodge]

Why do people need a scheme? I don't get it! I double-insulated my house a few years back and am saving more than the cost of the insulation every year. As for tenants - make it illegal to rent out uninsulated housing and offices. End of story!

When it comes to insulation, the UK isn't yet in the 20th century, never mind having a stab at entering the 21st!

As for nationalisation - here we go! Back to the post-war madness of Atlee and Co. and the bungling ineptitude of the Wilson and Callahan administrations. Nationalising industries hardly makes them function any better - just look at the unholy mess that is the NHS!

The NHS is a wonderful example of just how bad governments are at running anything! Or have you forgotten the disaster and death of the British car industry as a result of being nationalised?

This present government cannot even run itself - let alone hope that it could run something as complex and price sensitive as energy!

Imagine a bunch of civil servants - people who have opted to avoid all real responsibility for their own lives and incomes by getting 'safe' jobs with generous pensions - trying to run an entire industry! It would end up like the British Leyland Motor Corporation - bust!

Oh! But don't worry! They will be guided by those grasping, mendacious, back-stabbing, cheating and profoundly intellectually challenged narcissistic infants we call politicians!

Well, that's alright then!

1. Many people, especially now, do not have the money to insulate their home.

2. There is nothing wrong with nationalisation provided the industry is run by experts. The difference being that they do not have to factor in huge dividends to shareholders as part of their costs.

 

[DontAsk]

Back in the 70s my father insulated or loft as a DIY job, sent the receipt of and was reimbursed at least some of the cost.

Now you are not allowed to DIY anything like this (unless, of course, you are footing the bill) and must engage companies who are set up to milk whatever scheme is current with untrained employees, poor workmanship and inflated prices.

 

[Mr D]

“The price cap on default tariffs has been predicted to rise to £3,420 in October and then £3,850 in January next year after wholesale gas and power prices hit new record highs on Tuesday (26 July). Based on typical consumption patterns, BFY said this would mean the average dual fuel consumer paying by direct debit would face a bill of more than £500 for January alone.” Utility Week.

I can see this being a poll tax riot moment heading the Governments way, the news will be showing frozen elderly begging to be jailed just so they can be warm and receive three meals a day.

Time to bin the green policies of which 90% are counterproductive IMO, and concentrate on energy security and a national home insulation scheme.

OK so some people have had £150 from the government. Many households will get £200 towards their electricity bills.
Some people have also had £650 and some will get some extra.
That's this year.

Next year - £200 towards electricity bills. Then what?

And is it down to government to pay people's energy use? Or more correctly is it down to government borrowing money our grandkids will pay for in order to keep warm enough to fancy some nookie in order to have kids to then give grandkids?

Energy security? Great - how exactly will that help people this decade? I've a gas boiler - pretty sure any new gas field being put forward for permission will be at least 4 or 5 years before online. Could be another few years after that to get more fields found and permission given. Helps me next year how?
New nuclear power stations? That's towards end of next decade to go online - helps me next year how?

National home insulation scheme? You mean like the one that has been running for over 20 years now that was paid for by government? You mean the insulation that people will be encouraged to fit due to rising bills?
That helps people who have insulation and unable to pay bills in what way?

UK court system - can take quite a bit to get prison time. Break windows? Smash cars? Steal cars? No.
Claim your wife attempted to murder you so you can get her somewhere warm for a few months until the court case? Authorities may be suspicious when you go visit her in prison every week.

 

[Mr D]

1. Many people, especially now, do not have the money to insulate their home.

2. There is nothing wrong with nationalisation provided the industry is run by experts. The difference being that they do not have to factor in huge dividends to shareholders as part of their costs.

1 - many people already have had insulation done in past couple of decades thanks to schemes promoted by governments. Not always easy to fully insulate homes, my door got knocked in last summer and I need a new front door. Can't bill the fire service for it. I've got to find the money. Which I fully accept and am saving for.

2 - there is everything wrong with nationalisation. In what way is a civil servant better at running a business than directors are? The policies won't be made by experts, they'll be decided upon by state employees. They may be very good state employees but don't expect them to be experts. Do expect them to have to justify spending plans to politicians who will sign off on things!
Another term for nationalisation is stealing. Now for example EDF energy, owned by the French government. Nick that how?
You are a civil servant - your pension isn't tied up in one of those energy companies. How do you compensate those who do have pension funds that have shares in such stolen businesses? Fully paid for by government?

 

[The Byre]

1. Many people, especially now, do not have the money to insulate their home.

Then do it the way I did it. DIY and room by room. My next project is to build my own solar heating system for both the house and for the business.

Failing that, factor in the cost of having the house insulated for you when you buy the damn thing. As things stand, because there are no proper ways for a working stiff to save for the future, house prices in the UK are far too high because people buy that line of BS that a house is an asset. It is not!

It costs money, therefore it is a liability! If it paid me something, THEN it would be an asset! (And if your house is still on a mortgage, then it really IS an asset - but for the bank!)

2. There is nothing wrong with nationalisation provided the industry is run by experts.

If that were true, the NHS would be a roaring success and BLMC would be alive today. History is not on your side!

The difference being that they do not have to factor in huge dividends to shareholders as part of their costs.

So now and for the first time in ages, their PE ratios are in single figures - Centrica around eight - but they spent years with little or nothing to show for their investment. The moment they actually dare to earn anything reasonable, people start to protest.

Single figure PE ratios used to be normal! That's why people put their money into these companies in the vainglorious hope that they get something back!

I'm tired of this moaning and quetching about how the great 'They' have to do something. There is no They! They are a myth! I'm tired of having vox-pop on TV and radio of OAPs shivering and whining as they huddle around Bob Cratchit's candle when most of them are younger than I am! It's absurd!

I am equally tired of landlords in the UK being allowed to rent out sub-standard housing and then even throw people out onto the street with very little notice. Rental laws in the UK are a joke! If a political party were to advocate bringing the UK into line with the rest of Europe in matters of social welfare, it would here be classed as Communist!

And I am prepared to bet a goodly sum of money that I am the only member of this forum, nay - the only person any of you know (and you may include the entire Parliamentary Labour Party) that has the entire works of Karl Marx and Friederich Engels in his library!

As I mentioned here often enough, I was a founding member of the German Green Party. We warned the world over and over again that all this would happen - and now it is!

So here you are! Suck it up!

 

[Mr D]

Then do it the way I did it. DIY and room by room. My next project is to build my own solar heating system for both the house and for the business.

Failing that, factor in the cost of having the house insulated for you when you buy the damn thing. As things stand, because there are no proper ways for a working stiff to save for the future, house prices in the UK are far too high because people buy that line of BS that a house is an asset. It is not!

It costs money, therefore it is a liability! If it paid me something, THEN it would be an asset! (And if your house is still on a mortgage, then it really IS an asset - but for the bank!)

If that were true, the NHS would be a roaring success and BLMC would be alive today. History is not on your side!

So now and for the first time in ages, their PE ratios are in single figures - Centrica around eight - but they spent years with little or nothing to show for their investment. The moment they actually dare to earn anything reasonable, people start to protest.

Single figure PE ratios used to be normal! That's why people put their money into these companies in the vainglorious hope that they get something back!

I'm tired of this moaning and quetching about how the great 'They' have to do something. There is no They! They are a myth! I'm tired of having vox-pop on TV and radio of OAPs shivering and whining as they huddle around Bob Cratchit's candle when most of them are younger than I am! It's absurd!

I am equally tired of landlords in the UK being allowed to rent out sub-standard housing and then even throw people out onto the street with very little notice. Rental laws in the UK are a joke! If a political party were to advocate bringing the UK into line with the rest of Europe in matters of social welfare, it would here be classed as Communist!

And I am prepared to bet a goodly sum of money that I am the only member of this forum, nay - the only person any of you know (and you may include the entire Parliamentary Labour Party) that has the entire works of Karl Marx and Friederich Engels in his library!

As I mentioned here often enough, I was a founding member of the German Green Party. We warned the world over and over again that all this would happen - and now it is!

So here you are! Suck it up!

You may well be right about the entire works in your library. I've read the entire works of both, I don't have a copy in my library. Marx could have used a little more editing.
I have Marx on my backup hard drive - most of my library is electronic. with about a hundred times the books I have on my many bookshelves. Just never collected Engels.

I installed some insulation when I moved into this house. I've had some 'free' insulation from the government via one of the insulation schemes and had a new boiler under a similar scheme. Result is I now (2022) pay around half the gas bill that I did in 2008.
House isn't fully insulated, I'm getting some new windows eventually in the flat roof extension at the back. As its a flat roof extension its not exactly best insulated anyway no matter what I do.
Minor matter that will be completed probably in next couple of years from savings.

I have a dustbin incinerator out the back, handy for burning wood and dry grass when gardening. Neighbours on one side complain about the smoke but I tend to ignore them - most of the days they complain about the smoke its on days I'm not burning anything.
Keeping warm when gardening while saving on the gas bill.

I've noticed the usual problem on social media this week. Centrica report a high figure for profits (high in absolute terms) and people including the media equate that to British Gas profits.

 

[MBE2017]

Unfortunately many old Victorian houses for instance, the usual two up two down solid brick walls will only ever get above an EPC of C by using EWI, plus maximum loft insulation etc.

EWI alone would cost £10/20k per property on average, new laws coming in will mean any not up to a grade C will no longer be able to be rented after 2025. Ignoring the fact the UK does not have enough EWI fitters, most landlords would not see a return on the investment for 10/20 years.

The end result? Many properties will be no longer be rented, unless as I believe, the Gov introduces some mitigation or help. Eventually even private properties will no longer be able to be sold unless they have a minimum C rating, but the backlash to that proposal will make any political party bringing that idea in unelectable in the future.

What politician fancies telling voters they cannot move without either spending £20k average, or reducing the house price by £20k? Good luck with that.

 

[The Byre]

External wall insulation (EWI) is fundamentally wrong. Insulation has to be primarily internal. For a passive house build, it has to be both and avoid all thermal bridging.

I live in a stone cottage with granite walls two feet thick. We took down all the plasterboard and lined the walls with Rockwool and then PU foam boards, mostly Kingspan. It is also important to insulate the floors and the internal walls. Ceilings should be insulated with thermal blankets and not double Rockwool. All heating and water pipes should be covered with thermal lagging.

Floors insulated (our dining area).

Walls double insulated.

Kitchen cooking area.

Again, double insulation.

And because of space constraints, double Cellotex.

So we went from this (and one sees the sum of all the sins hidden in old houses!) -

To this -

Almost there - about ten years ago.

The key is to do it room-by-room and get rid of everything. Whatever is there, from electrics to plumbing, from door lintels to chimneys, will be crap that just has to go! The results are cheaper and far better than putting totally ineffective toy cladding on the outside.

The total cost for the kitchen, without windows and fittings, was £3k. Today it would be about double that. Most other rooms were a few hundred per room - just plasterboard, battens, PU boards, electrics, rolls of Rockwool and plaster and paint and lots of Torx screws.

And before you ask - about three months for the kitchen-dining area and weekends only. And that was probably the hardest room to do. The living room was the most expensive because it included a stone fireplace from a quarry outside Harrogate, a fancy wooden floor and all sorts of fittings to convert it into a cinema with 7.1 sound from Genelec.

And that is the clue - when you decide to insulate a house, you get the chance to do all those other things that you wanted to do but would otherwise be too expensive/bothersome/time-consuming or whatever excuse you had for never getting round to do them.

 

[Newchodge]

External wall insulation (EWI) is fundamentally wrong. Insulation has to be primarily internal. For a passive house build, it has to be both and avoid all thermal bridging.

I live in a stone cottage with granite walls two feet thick. We took down all the plasterboard and lined the walls with Rockwool and then PU foam boards, mostly Kingspan. It is also important to insulate the floors and the internal walls. Ceilings should be insulated with thermal blankets and not double Rockwool. All heating and water pipes should be covered with thermal lagging.

Floors insulated (our dining area).

Walls double insulated.

Kitchen cooking area.

Again, double insulation.

And because of space constraints, double Cellotex.

So we went from this (and one sees the sum of all the sins hidden in old houses!) -

To this -

Almost there - about ten years ago.

The key is to do it room-by-room and get rid of everything. Whatever is there, from electrics to plumbing, from door lintels to chimneys, will be crap that just has to go! The results are cheaper and far better than putting totally ineffective toy cladding on the outside.

The total cost for the kitchen, without windows and fittings, was £3k. Today it would be about double that. Most other rooms were a few hundred per room - just plasterboard, battens, PU boards, electrics, rolls of Rockwool and plaster and paint and lots of Torx screws.

And before you ask - about three months for the kitchen-dining area and weekends only. And that was probably the hardest room to do. The living room was the most expensive because it included a stone fireplace from a quarry outside Harrogate, a fancy wooden floor and all sorts of fittings to convert it into a cinema with 7.1 sound from Genelec.

And that is the clue - when you decide to insulate a house, you get the chance to do all those other things that you wanted to do but would otherwise be too expensive/bothersome/time-consuming or whatever excuse you had for never getting round to do them.

How many people renting in the private sector and on state benefits could afford even £300 to insulate an entire house, let alone £3,000 for 1 room?

 

[The Byre]

How many people renting in the private sector and on state benefits could afford even £300 to insulate an entire house, let alone £3,000 for 1 room?

I absolutely agree with that sentiment!

That is why there needs to be fundamental reform of all property laws here. It must start with who owns what and what taxes they pay and when. It starts with laws governing rental agreements and goes on to include tax rebates for building affordable social housing.

Imagine a world where giant corporations and even private individuals get large tax breaks for building social housing that is rented out at low cost.

Imagine a world where if you invest in such housing and hold it for a minimum (fairly long) period, any profits thus made are tax-free.

Imagine a world where such social housing must meet certain environmental standards and a failure by the landlord to do so could mean that the tenant can withhold the rent and get it altered themselves in lieu of rent payments.

Imagine a world in which you cannot turf people out of their homes for such bogus excuses as a change of ownership - and a dozen other excuses!

Imagine a world where throwing money at owning that giant liability called a house in the hope that it will always go up in value would be pointless because saving schemes would be matched by the government and by employers each with equal funds - so no need to get on some bogus property ladder!

Imagine a world with free childcare and a functioning health system with no waiting lists that costs less than the NHS per person.

Imagine a world where every person must carry infirmity insurance, so if you become old and go gaga and wet the bed, someone is paid to look after you and wipe your bottom.

That world is called most of the rest of North West Europe. It's a good job we're not still joined onto them! Imagine that - a world of social justice and decency. We don't want anything like that here, now do we?

 

[Newchodge]

I absolutely agree with that sentiment!

That is why there needs to be fundamental reform of all property laws here. It must start with who owns what and what taxes they pay and when. It starts with laws governing rental agreements and goes on to include tax rebates for building affordable social housing.

Imagine a world where giant corporations and even private individuals get large tax breaks for building social housing that is rented out at low cost.

Imagine a world where if you invest in such housing and hold it for a minimum (fairly long) period, any profits thus made are tax-free.

Imagine a world where such social housing must meet certain environmental standards and a failure by the landlord to do so could mean that the tenant can withhold the rent and get it altered themselves in lieu of rent payments.

Imagine a world in which you cannot turf people out of their homes for such bogus excuses as a change of ownership - and a dozen other excuses!

Imagine a world where throwing money at owning that giant liability called a house in the hope that it will always go up in value would be pointless because saving schemes would be matched by the government and by employers each with equal funds - so no need to get on some bogus property ladder!

Imagine a world with free childcare and a functioning health system with no waiting lists that costs less than the NHS per person.

Imagine a world where every person must carry infirmity insurance, so if you become old and go gaga and wet the bed, someone is paid to look after you and wipe your bottom.

That world is called most of the rest of North West Europe. It's a good job we're not still joined onto them! Imagine that - a world of social justice and decency. We don't want anything like that here, now do we?

I love the idea of your world, but we aren't there and people are going to die, avoidably, this winter unless something is done to prevent it.

 

[The Byre]

You cannot prevent it because 'The Great They' is busy printing money to appease the chattering classes doing their vox-pop interviews on TV channels nobody watches and in newspapers nobody reads anymore.

And all that printed money that 'The Great They' create will fire more inflation so that 'The Great They' has to print more and more and the OAPs huddled around Bob Cratchit's candle get even poorer because the little they had buys less and less.

There ain't nobody out there to rescue anyone - or as Ronald Reagan put it "The most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help you!'"