Brexit negotiations

[Newchodge]

No judgement due to there being absolutely no evidence, the Electoral Commission have made themselves look like fools, have had to update their website and withdraw all the false allegations. They also accept the findings that Aaron Banks used his own companies monies, not the alleged “Russian” bungs etc people were accusing him of.

I think their humiliation is complete, you see it as a non story. I bet you would argue differently if the case had gone the other way, then it would have been a big story.

Banks and Bilney were the claimants. They brought the case. If it did not go to judgment because there was no evidence, it was Banks and Bilney who needed to produce it. Have you read the actual court settlement? There is no humiliatuion, no finding, in that settlement, about anything.

 

[Bob Morgan]

Picking up on someone's grammar whilst having a debate is pretty pathetic.

Really? It makes me wonder how you would interview people! - Possibly telling them how 'Awesome' they are?

 

[alan1302]

Really? It makes me wonder how you would interview people! - Possibly telling them how 'Awesome' they are?

Why would it make you wonder that? Where is the correlation? Doing an interview is very different do having a discussion on an internet forum.

 

[Bob Morgan]

Why would it make you wonder that? Where is the correlation? Doing an interview is very different do having a discussion on an internet forum.

Some of us look for Candidates who are literate and articulate! But, what do I know? - You're an ACE!

 

[alan1302]

Some of us look for Candidates who are literate and articulate!

Most people do - why are you telling me?

 

[Bob Morgan]

Most people do - why are you telling me?

"Picking up on someone's grammar whilst having a debate is pretty pathetic" - Need I say more?

 

[alan1302]

"Picking up on someone's grammar whilst having a debate is pretty pathetic" - Need I say more?

Yes, you do.

You've been talking about interviewing people -no idea what you are talking about. This thread overall is about Brexit - nothing to do with interviews.

 

[Bob Morgan]

Yes, you do.

You've been talking about interviewing people -no idea what you are talking about. This thread overall is about Brexit - nothing to do with interviews.

YOU MADE THE DIVERSION to 'Picking on Grammar' - I merely passed an opinion!

 

[alan1302]

YOU MADE THE DIVERSION to 'Picking on Grammar' - I merely passed an opinion!

Think you will find Clinton did - I was just saying picking up on it was pathetic.

You went off on a weird tangent about things.

 

[The Byre]

Brexit? I think we are going to be facing far bigger issues soon. Or to put it another way -

 

[alan1302]

Brexit? I think we are going to be facing far bigger issues soon. Or to put it another way -

Brexit is all part of the economy - depending on what deal we have will affect the economy.

 

[Bob Morgan]

Think you will find Clinton did - I was just saying picking up on it was pathetic.

You went off on a weird tangent about things.

Clinton Made the Statement YOU MADE THE DIVERSION MENTIONING 'Pathetic!' To be quite honest I have work to be getting on with. If you wish to persist, drop me a Personal Message and I will deal with it.

 

[The Byre]

I don't think that any of you knuckleheads appreciate the size of the economic and societal black hole that we are entering.

Arguing about bloody Brexit is like arguing about what tune the orchestra should play on the deck of the Titanic!

 

[alan1302]

Clinton Made the Statement YOU MADE THE DIVERSION MENTIONING 'Pathetic!' To be quite honest I have work to be getting on with. If you wish to persist, drop me a Personal Message and I will deal with it.

The diversion was Clinton mentioning - I continued the diversion....then you went off on a weird tangent. What exactly would be continue with via PM?

 

[alan1302]

Arguing about bloody Brexit is like arguing about what tune the orchestra should play on the deck of the Titanic!

Under the sea from the film The Little Mermaid please.

 

[Clinton]

Picking up on someone's grammar whilst having a debate is pretty pathetic.

I agree. I do not normally pick on people's grammar. I pick on all kinds of things but not grammar. However, I'm sick to the back teeth of Remainers who consider themselves superior and more intelligent and better able to tell fact from fiction.

This superior attitude is even more annoying in people who have a poor grasp of grammar. Their writing suggests they don't have the literacy skills to be able to understand more complex matters. Nuances and subtleties are lost on them. They compound that by reading some ranting lunatics at the Guardian.

Then they come here to explain Brexit to the rest of us. In broken English. It's not funny any more.

 

[KM-Tiger]

This superior attitude is even more annoying in people who have a poor grasp of grammar.

Indeed.

Given that it has been a consistent theme that Remainers are 'better educated', it seems valid to me to point out that it's not necessarily the case.

 

[alan1302]

Indeed.

Given that it has been a consistent theme that Remainers are 'better educated', it seems valid to me to point out that it's not necessarily the case.

Just makes you look petty - if that is what you are Clinton want then fair enough - but it does not make you look good picking up on someone's grammar especially on a discussion board like this. If you need to stoop to that level then you should just move away from it.

 

[gpietersz]

Remainers are more likely to break lockdown rules: https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-h...esponse-to-coronavirus-lockdown-idUKKCN2280UT

 

[UKSBD]

I don't think that any of you knuckleheads appreciate the size of the economic and societal black hole that we are entering.

Arguing about bloody Brexit is like arguing about what tune the orchestra should play on the deck of the Titanic!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-52479215/we-ll-starve-to-death-if-this-continues

 

[gpietersz]

Given that it has been a consistent theme that Remainers are 'better educated', it seems valid to me to point out that it's not necessarily the case.

That is a myth people believe because it fits their prejudices so they are unlikely to be talked out of it by rational argument. It a simply result of younger people being more likely to vote remain (although, interestingly, really old people are also mostly remain) - but if people (deliberately?) fail to understand that correlation does not imply causation there is little point appealing to reason.

 

[Mr D]

The real question is whether Remainers like you will now accept the result of the Referendum was fair.

Who cares if its fair?
The decision is what was done. Those who cannot accept other people making their own decisions cannot accept the result of a vote that goes against them.

 

[DontAsk]

Banks and Bilney were the claimants. They brought the case. If it did not go to judgment because there was no evidence, it was Banks and Bilney who needed to produce it. Have you read the actual court settlement? There is no humiliatuion, no finding, in that settlement, about anything.

I think you need to re-read the judgement.

 

[Clinton]

The EC originally said "Our investigation has unveiled evidence that suggests criminal offences have been committed ...we have handed our evidence to the NCA "

Now the EC are required to remove those comments from their website (which is why my link above goes to archive.org).

They also need to publish this on their website: "(The NCA) has stated that it has not received any evidence ..."

So it looks like the EC had no evidence and they just made this story up!They also made up that they gave the evidence to the NCA!

It looks like a right slap in the face for the EC and very embarrassing for them to have to agree to the terms they've agreed here.

I'm sure it's very disappointing for Remainers who were hoping this case would go very differently. Sorry, Cyndy. And it must be very disappointing for the socialists that a rich man didn't go to jail.

It must be even more disappointing for our upstanding, honest, unbiased, non-political, Remainer Electoral Commission!

 

[MBE2017]

Banks and Bilney were the claimants. They brought the case. If it did not go to judgment because there was no evidence, it was Banks and Bilney who needed to produce it. Have you read the actual court settlement? There is no humiliatuion, no finding, in that settlement, about anything.

If you say so. I see it the other way round, Banks had been accused by the Electoral Commission, they had no proof, just lies. Guess we see things differently.

 

[Mr D]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-52479215/we-ll-starve-to-death-if-this-continues

Note to self, get more pipe in before price goes up.
Thanks for the tip.

 

[Newchodge]

I think you need to re-read the judgement.

What judgment?

 

[Clinton]

Moving on to another case...

There's this case in the ECJ that challenges the removal of EU citizenship from people in the UK.

The argument is that UK citizens have automatic EU citizenship and that this constitutes individual rights on citizens that can't be taken away by agreements between governments.

They claim "all 66 million (UK citizens) continue to hold the status, even when the transition period ends, allowing them to freely move and work in all 27 countries of the bloc."



If it succeeds, we will continue to have the right to live and work in the EU.

Ouch! Wasn't the (assumed) loss of this right one of the main reasons people voted Remain?

It'll be interesting to see how this pans out.

I wonder how many more would have voted Leave if they knew that they wouldn't lose EU citizenship. It would have been an absolute landslide victory for Leave!

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Were we not selective on who we gave British Passports to, when parts of the old empire became independent countries

 

[Clinton]

In addition to the above case, there was another interesting case last week. This one is actually now completed and there's a judgement.

With all the coronavirus noise, big news like this is getting missed. Here's the low down.

The German supreme court upheld several complaints against the European Central Bank's ridiculous £2 trillion bond purchase / quantitative easing programme going on since 2015. It's given the ECB three months to prove the bond buying was proportional.

But here's the fun part!

If the ECB can't convince the German supreme court then the court has ruled that the Bundesbank, the German central bank, should pull out of the ECB's bond buying!

If the Bundesbank pulls out, 90% of the ECB's credibility disappears overnight! Their cost of borrowing will soar as essentially the ECB will then be just a central bank for basket case economies. In fact, the consensus is that the monetary union itself will collapse if Germany pulls out.

Some pro-EU commentators believe that the ECB will be able to prove what they need to prove. Others are not so sure. Even ol' George Soros thinks the ECB may struggle to prove this and that the monetary union could collapse! And there's probably nobody more pro EU than the corrupt billionaire George Soros (who has such little respect for British democracy that he funded a campaign for a second referendum)!

It doesn't end there. The European Court of Justice is quite peeved. It believe that it should be the sole arbiter of what's legal and not legal when it comes to EU institutions, that this shouldn't be a matter for courts of individual EU countries.

But that's a moot point because the Bundesbank is not an EU institution and it can pull out if it wants!

Fun and games.

 

[The Byre]

Don't get your hopes up too high! The judgment was heavily nuanced! I'll explain -

This was all made possible by a supreme court ruling decades ago that established that no EU institution stands above the German supreme court. This happened when we went from the Common Market to the EU.

Detracters of the EU stated at the time "Surly, the EU is placing itself above the German constitution and above the German constitutional supreme court. We can't have that!" So the court sat in a process called an Aufklärungsprozess (a hearing to explore a point of law) and decided that such an arrangement did not exist and if it did, it would be politically unacceptable and against the basic constitution of the Federal Republic. That judgment has always stood and has always been accepted - no EU measure or ruling can countermand any ruling by the German supreme court. Busta!

At the time, many commentators thought that the ruling was a bit of a whitewash - that's just so many words and the reality will look different. Until now, the EU and subsequently the ECB have been careful not to step on any supreme constitutional court toes. That was until now . . .

The court ruled that the purchases are partially unconstitutional. i.e. there is still lots of wiggle-room! After the judgment, the Bundestag and the federal government will have to ensure that the ECB explains the proportionality of its bond purchase programs.

If they cannot do that, the Bundesbank is prohibited from participating in the purchases after a transition period of no more than three months.

That still leaves many other questions:

Can the ECB's bond purchases continue?

Yes, the ECB and the national central banks in the euro system will continue to buy bonds from euro countries as before. However, the Constitutional Court has mandated that the Governing Council of the Governing Council must explain the proportionality of the bond purchases in a statement and present a corresponding analysis as the first step.

Will the ECB provide the declaration required by the constitutional court?

In principle, this is not a problem for the central bank. But if it complies with this demand, it could look as if it is following the constitutional court instructions. The ECB has to avoid this impression and only the European Court of Justice (ECJ) can call it to order. In 2018, the ECJ came to the conclusion that the purchases did not violate EU law.

The question is therefore whether the ECB itself provides the reasoning or whether it can leave it to the Bundesbank. The Supreme Constitutional Court also demanded that the ECB Governing Council should explain proportionality. It is expected that this will happen within the next two to three weeks.

Who decides whether proportionality has been achieved?

That's the big question. Nobody knows!

What happens then?

Well, one thing is a sure-fire certainty! There will be lawsuits against any declaration. In addition, the Supreme Constitutional Court also said in its ruling that bond purchases so far have not violated the principles governing monetary government financing.

With the new bond purchase program for the corona crisis, on the other hand, the ECB signaled its' willingness to deviate from those principles. This new judgment did not rule on this program or deal with this question. Any litigation on this issue could very easily be successful! Then the do-do really could hit the fan!

What happens if the Bundesbank stopped buying government bonds?

This is partly what all the argument is about. Interest rates for German government bonds are very low and there is a shortage of federal bonds because Germany has comparatively low debt. However, this reasoning ignores the technical side of monetary policy.

The interest rate for federal bonds is the benchmark in the euro area on which all other interest rates are based. The ECB admits that the market cannot work without buying federal bonds, though these could possibly be taken over by other central banks or the ECB itself.

What does the ruling mean for the Bundesbank?

The judgment is also VERY uncomfortable for the Bundesbank. Its President Jens Weidmann has always been a harsh critic of the ECB's bond purchases, but the Bundesbank is bound by the ECB's instructions in accordance with the statutes of the Euro system and he is now caught in the middle of the conflict.

So now what happens?

Fun and Games indeed! The constitution demands that the government and parliament must implement the judgment and because the constitutional court is independent, political criticism of the judgment is prohibited.

The only problem is: this also applies to the ECB! It is now forced to exercise restraint and politicians who have been critical of EU monetary policy are very happy! They have always been convinced that the ECB is pursuing an overly expansionist monetary policy.

The judgment does not refer to the ECB's current Corona program - but how the Federal Government can now support the ECB and magically justify the proportionality of the bond purchases within three months is a question that the German government has not been able to answer.

 

[MBE2017]

Michel Barnier CAVES: EU now ready to offer 'compromise' after UK threats of no deal

 

[Mr D]

Michel Barnier CAVES: EU now ready to offer 'compromise' after UK threats of no deal

Great.
Except we may not want a compromise that they are willing to offer.

A compromise is not always a good thing.

 

[simon field]

Yay!

 

[MBE2017]

Too early to be excited, that headline from the Express, but now the UK has a half decent negotiator at least the EU are starting to realise the biggest loser in a no deal Brexit will be them. That said, obviously the UK will take a hit as well, but after this mad week, we can cope better than most.

A deal will be done, the EU blinked first IMO, lots of countries in the EU starting to think of lost revenues right now, plus much higher contributions required to replace the lost UK money.

 

[MBE2017]

Quickly following on from yesterday, today I see Unilever has abandoned its dual Anglo-Dutch corporate structure in favour of a single company in London, reversing attempts two years ago to combine its two arms in the Netherlands


Another Brexit myth busted and blow to Project Fear.

 

[Mr D]

Quickly following on from yesterday, today I see Unilever has abandoned its dual Anglo-Dutch corporate structure in favour of a single company in London, reversing attempts two years ago to combine its two arms in the Netherlands


Another Brexit myth busted and blow to Project Fear.

Perhaps affected by Covid?

 

[MBE2017]

Toyota in Derbyshire announced a day or so ago they are to start making a new car for Suzuki, for export to the EU. What happened to those experts telling us motor manufacturers would shut up and move abroad if Brexit went through?

https://order-order.com/2020/06/19/toyota-choose-britain-as-new-hybrid-car-export-hub/

 

[Mr D]

Toyota in Derbyshire announced a day or so ago they are to start making a new car for Suzuki, for export to the EU. What happened to those experts telling us motor manufacturers would shut up and move abroad if Brexit went through?

https://order-order.com/2020/06/19/toyota-choose-britain-as-new-hybrid-car-export-hub/

They may still move some car production abroad.
At the moment no one knows what the costs will be in a year, 3 years, 5 years etc.

 

[Bob Morgan]

There's one thing we can be sure of, newspapers like the Guardian and the Independent will try and spin every bit of news as a defeat for the UK.

Have SW1A 2AA and SW1H 9HQ just arrived? - I will get my coat!