UK Website design company - REALLY???

[captaincloser]

Would it still be Danish bacon if the Pigs were Danish, but reared and farmed in the UK?

This thread is sizzling !

There will be EU directives not allowing this, although I doubt anyone ever told the pigs...

 

[webgeek]

Bought a lot of Angus beef in America. Frankly the quality of meat was superior to Aberdeen Angus sold in the shops here...

 

[j600com]

There's a Nissan factory in Sunderland too

 

[webgeek]

LOL yeah, for years the only car fully built in America was Saturn, then Daewoo and a few international brands built factories there.

You shoulda seen the look on my fathers face when he found his new Buick had an engine made in Mexico. American car because it was assembled in America.

 

[Ali-v-8]

OK I agree that there are merits to using certain companies abroad but it boils down to relationship and trust.
A client should always have the ability to walk away.
1) it make you do your job right
2) it allows development

Sure there are aspects like contracts but this should be by choice not necessity. For example payment plans.

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

OK I agree that there are merits to using certain companies abroad but it boils down to relationship and trust.
A client should always have the ability to walk away.
1) it make you do your job right
2) it allows development

Sure there are aspects like contracts but this should be by choice not necessity. For example payment plans.

I always try to meet clients and arrange contacts wherever possible, a decent contract protects my business as much as it does the client. The contract is updates at prearranged dates/milestones to include any additional requirements thought of by the client.

I absolutely agree that a client should be able to walk away, it is despicable to put code into a project, or write the code making it impossible for the client to do so easily. The only exception I ever make to this is when a client has extended payment terms, and I won't release the code until it has been paid in full. This info is also in the contract.

I have had bad experiences with outsourcing in the past, and these have cost me £'s as I have ended up paying someone when their work was never used, and then paying someone else more to get the project completed asap afterwards. It can be tough, but with plenty of due diligence it is possible to build up very good long term working relationships.

 

[FIZIX Agency]

The key is in the price, pay peanuts, get peanuts. This is true if they are in New Delhi, Dubai, London or LA.

The idea that economies give you too good to be true, but true, prices is a bit of a fallacy online. It's not like sourcing for textiles on the cheap, the web has the affect of bringing us closer and connects us differently.

I know some awesome designers and developers in India and to be frank, they are not thick, they don't sit there offering their services for a couple of hundred quid when they have the portfolio and skill to command a hell of a lot more.

They are cheaper but not THAT much cheaper and if they can get away with pricing the same as western firms, if the budget is there, they will.

From my experience picking up after things, the ones that go wrong are the ones where you sit back and think "did you expect that to go well?" and those scenarios are not exclusive to India.

 

[Wiggy]

Started with a mini-rant that was admittedly provoked by exposure to bad outsourced work.
It must be fair to say that if the outsourced work was good, you would be less likely to come into contact with it ...

As a client/end-user of such services, I truly don't care where the people doing the work are, as long as communication is easy and instantaneous. This extends to times when I am dealing with an ostensibly UK-based company; as long as they don't use outsourcing as an excuse for poor quality or delays, I don't feel a need to know if any or all of the work is done abroad.

As far as language goes, to be brutally honest, I expect a better standard of written English from people who learnt it as a second language, particularly people who come from places that were once part of the British Empire. On this thread alone, there are enough errors to set your (yes, your, not to be confused with you're) teeth on edge and I suspect that the worst culprits were born here.

The best part of this has been the wild analogies; from mountain-built yachts to American herds of Aberdeen Angus cattle. (I'm just an immigrant so I'm not sure if I should write Aberdeen 'Angi' or 'Anguses'. 'Cattle' saves the day)

 

[Ali-v-8]

Angus is a breed of cow reared for its beef.
"You're" correct about the grammar on some post, diabolical and at time shameful. However as I pointed out speaking queens English and writing it does not mean you understand how an English man speaks. I stated "slang" as the key point of my argument that people from abroad would not understand the differing dialects and terms.
For example: A UK website selling car parts had the terms "Hood" and "trunk" used to describe parts of a car. There was the term sedan used instead of saloon. Just in case your wondering it should have been bonnet and boot so i messaged "David" and "David" said "No Sir, you are wrong. A bonnet is a childs hat and you dont sell childrens hats.

Understanding the market mean knowing it. A UK professional will be more in-tune to his surroundings than someone thousands of miles away.

Started with a mini-rant that was admittedly provoked by exposure to bad outsourced work.
It must be fair to say that if the outsourced work was good, you would be less likely to come into contact with it ...

As a client/end-user of such services, I truly don't care where the people doing the work are, as long as communication is easy and instantaneous. This extends to times when I am dealing with an ostensibly UK-based company; as long as they don't use outsourcing as an excuse for poor quality or delays, I don't feel a need to know if any or all of the work is done abroad.

As far as language goes, to be brutally honest, I expect a better standard of written English from people who learnt it as a second language, particularly people who come from places that were once part of the British Empire. On this thread alone, there are enough errors to set your (yes, your, not to be confused with you're) teeth on edge and I suspect that the worst culprits were born here.

The best part of this has been the wild analogies; from mountain-built yachts to American herds of Aberdeen Angus cattle. (I'm just an immigrant so I'm not sure if I should write Aberdeen 'Angi' or 'Anguses'. 'Cattle' saves the day)

 

[Jet Virtual]

Long story short ... depends on the web designer NOT the country they live in.

 

[rbhealthandsafety]

Anyone any experience of using "click consult"? I am looking at a quote from them currently for web design and SEO?

 

[Ali-v-8]

Sorry I cant comment on them - the last time the thread had to be removed - but I am sure there are other comments on here about them.

 

[RedEvo]

We don't outsource any digital marketing work and it's a USP in the SEO industry

I disagree with the idea that an SEO company who do everything in-house can claim it's a USP.

d

 

[Wiggy]

Angus is a breed of cow reared for its beef.

Of course it is, my point being that the analogy, while delightful, was pointless. It was akin to claiming a necktie can only have a Windsor knot if tied in the heart of Berkshire.

"David" said "No Sir, you are wrong. A bonnet is a childs hat and you dont sell childrens hats.

I must admit that I'm disappointed in David, are you sure he didn't say,
"No Sir, you are wrong. A bonnet is a child's hat and you don't sell children's hats."

Understanding the market mean knowing it. A UK professional will be more in-tune to his surroundings than someone thousands of miles away.

I fully understand that idiomatic differences can cause errors but to be honest, no website developer (getting in my bunker prepatory to receiving missiles) should be trusted with creating industry-specific content and regardless of where the development takes place, content should at least be checked by someone with industry knowledge. It is much more tedious to try to chase down grammatical, punctuation or spelling errors. In the post from which I culled these quotes, I see at least 12 errors, not counting the deliberate ones. I'm not any kind of English expert, (I'm an Engineer, English is my second language and I first learned to speak it in the U.S.) but given a choice, I would prefer to amend any technical, local or idiomatic language than to have to correct grammar, spelling and punctuation on every line of text.

It is still a delightful thread :redface:

 

[Ali-v-8]

Actually it is. Many people use us because we do nearly everything in house. Things get done quicker and they can call any time and get the answer instead of us having to get back to them after the answer is retrieved from a third party.
I personally would class it as a unique selling point.

I disagree with the idea that an SEO company who do everything in-house can claim it's a USP.

d

 

[fantanz]

Having signed a customer recently who had bought 3 websites from a Midlands web design firm with high street store front, yada yada, we found a nightmare.

There were broken links, images referenced in multiple subfolders, mixed case usage (sometimes upper, sometimes lower), fugly css and the list goes on and on.

We later found out the designer was a college kid who was employed by the design firm. Why they allowed this poor quality of work to go out is anyone's guess.

I think a lack of commitment to quality, and good service, is rife, no matter where you are located.

Hi There, I was thinking of selling my adult dating site. Well my affiliate based dating site which I have done no marketing but turning over around £200 pm. If I was to keep it could you boost members cost effectively? If I could four-fold the £200 pm I would think about keeping

 

[Ali-v-8]

English is one of the 5 languages I speak. Although it is most peoples assumption that my name indicates a birth in a foreign land I an assure you I an a Lancastrian born and bred.
If you missed the context of the example I gave then so be it but I will redirect you to the point being made instead of side tracking to a thesaurus or spell check competition.
If you outsourced and mistakes are made and they cannot be rectified without further cost being incurred how can someone from the UK take someone from India to court and reclaim their loses?

 

[Wiggy]

I an assure you I an a Lancastrian born and bred.

I'm not sure if this was directed at me but you have made my point so much better than I could have ...

 

[UKSBD]

Is that;
have...
have....
have. ...
have ...
or have . . .
?

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

I'm not sure if this was directed at me but you have made my point so much better than I could have ...

LOL

(message wasn't long enough, so had to add this nonsense)

 

[Wiggy]

Is that;
have...
have....
have. ...
have ...
or have . . .
?

Ah, the elusive ellipsis! Was I thinking; American Legal, English Formal, English Informal or Modern Internet English? More to the point, what was my spell-check thinking?

There are times that I'm glad this is my second language

 

[trebor8]

You're speaking as a biased customer, who, if i recall, had issues with his web development.

What has this got to do with it?

But if i had a big web project on the go and budget i would be inclined to go where's best for vale for money.

I tend to disagree if you have a 'big web project on the go' you'd want the best your money can afford

 

[Ali-v-8]

Value for money is a difficult thing to judge on a bespoke build or design.
One may be Rembrandt, one Picasso whilst the other Andy Warhol.
All accomplished artist But if you paid £5000 for a painting from each, the Andy Warhol would be value for money but Picasso and Rembrandt would be bargins.

If you have a big project you throw cost out and work out what the project is worth and find someone capable - Not find someone cheap enough to do it.

 

[rbhealthandsafety]

Can I ask how one would identify if the site is a Rembrant, Picasso or warhole? It's very difficult for us amateurs out here.

Value for money is a difficult thing to judge on a bespoke build or design.
One may be Rembrandt, one Picasso whilst the other Andy Warhol.
All accomplished artist But if you paid £5000 for a painting from each, the Andy Warhol would be value for money but Picasso and Rembrandt would be bargins.

If you have a big project you throw cost out and work out what the project is worth and find someone capable - Not find someone cheap enough to do it.

 

[trebor8]

What happens when the company in India can't complete the project in time, agreed between you and the client? do you start spinning the client a yarn?

 

[Annoying Donkey]

Can I ask how one would identify if the site is a Rembrant, Picasso or warhole? It's very difficult for us amateurs out here.

That's simple. Use a text browser such as lynx and if you still want to buy, then it's a Rembrant

 

[Annoying Donkey]

What happens when the company in India can't complete the project in time, agreed between you and the client? do you start spinning the client a yarn?

Same question if your staff are inhouse/uk based. It's all down to management.

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

Same question if your staff are inhouse/uk based. It's all down to management.

Exactly, if I choose to use a freelancer for part of a clients project and they let me down, then as far as I am concerned I have let the client down.
Not outsourcing is no guarantee that everything is going to be up to standard, on time & on budget.
If a client chooses my company for a project it is my responsibility to ensure the client is very satisfied with the work.

When using remote workers, whether they are UK based, EU based or elsewhere it is so important to manage that worker and be sure the work is getting completed to the required standard and on time.

 

[trebor8]

Exactly, if I choose to use a freelancer for part of a clients project and they let me down, [b[then as far as I am concerned I have let the client down[/b].
Not outsourcing is no guarantee that everything is going to be up to standard, on time & on budget.
If a client chooses my company for a project it is my responsibility to ensure the client is very satisfied with the work.

When using remote workers, whether they are UK based, EU based or elsewhere it is so important to manage that worker and be sure the work is getting completed to the required standard and on time.

Just rhetoric.
Of course it's you who has let your client down because as far as your client is aware - due to your deceit, the client thinks it's you who is carrying out the work
But I suppose the ending argument is, as long as everyone is happy, who cares.

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

Just rhetoric.
Of course it's you who has let your client down because as far as your client is aware - due to your deceit, the client thinks it's you who is carrying out the work
But I suppose the ending argument is, as long as everyone is happy, who cares.

Where is the deceit? A client hires my company for a project, My company completes the project using resources available to my company.

I may be in a slightly different position from others that outsource as I am a very capable programmer, so it is easy to go through someone else's code and see if it meets my high standards.

But ultimately, yes, as long as he client is happy and everything is done correctly then I am happy.

 

[trebor8]

I know of an Engineering Co whom manufacture industrial filter systems, sometimes when they get an order, they simply outsource the work to China as it is sometimes cheaper for them to do so. They have a man on the ground for quality checking etc etc. The client is blissfully unaware of this and gets charged the full whack. They base their quotations as if it was manufactured in this country by them.
I can appreciate this is just business, but then you ask where is the deceit

 

[Chunkford]

Regardless how it was priced up, it's only deceit if they stated it was manufactured in the UK

While I'm all for a better bottom line (we're all business people here), if someone was to lie then that's bad practice and they should be shot down. Which they normal do.

But buyers also need to understand that there is a premium for 'British Made' and if this is the route they want to go down then be prepared to pay for it.
It doesn't mean they will get a better end result, it just means they're paying to satisfy their woes

 

[Ali-v-8]

Thank you for hitting on the true point. You can never get a like for like quote for design - Some people are way more talented than others.
But what you can do it see what the design is built on. This is usually easily comparable.

Can I ask how one would identify if the site is a Rembrant, Picasso or warhole? It's very difficult for us amateurs out here.

 

[j600com]

Regardless how it was priced up, it's only deceit if they stated it was manufactured in the UK

Here's a thing I stumbled over recently (forget who's site it was but it was someone on here) they had an about us/meet the team section on their website listing their team. But when I looked at the employee names on linkedin it turned out they weren't actually employees of that web company - they were just freelancers out in India.

Would you class it deceitful to list say 15 people on your "meet team page" of which maybe 2 are employed in the UK by the web company, and the rest are just freelancers who whilst they may work on the project (therefore are part of the team) aren't actually permanent employees of the company.

I actually thought this was a grey area bordering on being a little bit sneaky, because it read as if they were all part of the web team/company (as you would a standard about us/meet the team page). Whereas in reality the people on the page were just freelancers based in India etc. I could create a meet the team section on our site and add 1000 random freelancers throughout the globe and appear to specialise in everything and have a nice big stable company/team behind me - then just hire them when needed. This would allow me to possibly claim to have the biggest web team on the planet - what a USP!

I'd be interested to hear peoples thoughts on that one.

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

Here's a thing I stumbled over recently (forget who's site it was but it was someone on here) they had an about us/meet the team section on their website listing their team. But when I looked at the employee names on linkedin it turned out they weren't actually employees of that web company - they were just freelancers out in India.

Would you class it deceitful to list say 15 people on your "meet team page" of which maybe 2 are employed in the UK by the web company, and the rest are just freelancers who whilst they may work on the project (therefore are part of the team) aren't actually permanent employees of the company.

I actually thought this was a grey area bordering on being a little bit sneaky, because it read as if they were all part of the web team/company (as you would a standard about us/meet the team page). Whereas in reality the people on the page were just freelancers based in India etc. I could create a meet the team section on our site and add 1000 random freelancers throughout the globe and appear to specialise in everything and have a nice big stable company/team behind me - then just hire them when needed. This would allow me to possibly claim to have the biggest web team on the planet - what a USP!

I'd be interested to hear peoples thoughts on that one.

I would say that if they are full time employees, then it is Ok wherever they are based, if they are working on a freelance basis then they should be listed as "Part time" or similar.

 

[webgeek]

There's no difference between someone working under contract terms A, B or C, putting in 80 hours a week, 40 hours a week or 20. If they work as a part of your team, they are the 'team'. What if someone holds 2 jobs, or 3... they can't be a part of any team? Bah, utter rubbish.

Pendantic semantics are a great way to create a straw man, only so that it can be torn down.

One person moans because a company uses staff in another country, another moans because they use staff as contractors instead of 'employees', another moans because the company is managed from a home office instead of a High street premises.

The fact that a company is comprised of freelancers, contractors, and/or employees, coming from a variety of postal codes, area codes, or country codes is irrelevant.

The only thing that really matters to customers is the ability of a company to deliver results and make good on it's commitment to the customer.

./insert quote about people throwing rocks, living in glass houses

/end rant

 

[Glowbridge]

I'm not sure I agree with "as long as the client is happy" reasoning. If someone is hiring you to build them a bespoke eCommerce system their ability to distinguish good from bad is going to be quite severely limited. It's perfectly possible to make a client jump with giddy excitement by taking a piece of trash product and polishing only the edges the client will notice.

"As long as a good job is done" would be better. You are being hired as a professional, you are brought in for your knowledge of a specific area and being asked to make good decisions on behalf of your client. There is a moral obligation there to maintain a certain standard because your client is incapable of enforcing that standard upon you themselves.

 

[webgeek]

I would consider, "make good on it's commitment to the customer" to mean that the company delivers what the customer expects. If it's an ecommerce platform, a shiny piece of trash is not what the customer expects

 

[rbhealthandsafety]

Sorry if I am sounding stupid here (as I am a techno idiot). So would someon be able to run by me how to see what a design is built on? Is this referring to Joomla, Wordpress etc? If so are you saying that these suggest that the site is not good?

Sorry to ask dumb questions but I am about to invest in a new design and have been stung before with poor workmanship.

Thank you for hitting on the true point. You can never get a like for like quote for design - Some people are way more talented than others.
But what you can do it see what the design is built on. This is usually easily comparable.

 

[Chunkford]

Here's a thing I stumbled over recently (forget who's site it was but it was someone on here) they had an about us/meet the team section on their website listing their team. But when I looked at the employee names on linkedin it turned out they weren't actually employees of that web company - they were just freelancers out in India.

Would you class it deceitful to list say 15 people on your "meet team page" of which maybe 2 are employed in the UK by the web company, and the rest are just freelancers who whilst they may work on the project (therefore are part of the team) aren't actually permanent employees of the company.

I actually thought this was a grey area bordering on being a little bit sneaky, because it read as if they were all part of the web team/company (as you would a standard about us/meet the team page). Whereas in reality the people on the page were just freelancers based in India etc. I could create a meet the team section on our site and add 1000 random freelancers throughout the globe and appear to specialise in everything and have a nice big stable company/team behind me - then just hire them when needed. This would allow me to possibly claim to have the biggest web team on the planet - what a USP!

I'd be interested to hear peoples thoughts on that one.

No, its not sneaky or deceitful at all. Technically and truthfully which ever way you look at it they are part of the 'team'.

Sourcing good freelancers is part skill and part luck. A company can spend thousands of hours and thousands of pounds to find the perfect freelancer.
If a clients feels they can do it themselves, then so be it. They will soon realise it's not as clear cut as some make it out to be.
If you were to display 1000's of your freelancers on your 'meet the team' page it would look a bit odd, but thats up to you. Personally I wouldn't bother, as I like to keep my 'talent' close to my chest and probably take it to my grave, but then on the flip side if you whole heartily have faith in your freelancers it can come across as you have the expertises and resources behind you to deal with the most demanding of corporate websites