PAT Testing

As most of us have said, regardless whether its law or requirment the main point again is will this guy still be around next yr, if the answer is yes, he's going to be a busy fool. My feeling on the matter is that he works nights somewhere for an employer and does a sideline in this on his rest days.Ive encountered many fire men and policemen that freelance as something or other on their rest days, and with the current public spending cuts being announced you will see more of this type of worker.
 
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DRA above you say ...
On your website's homepage you say ...
That to me looks like you are suggesting that is is the law or at least a requirement, which it clearly is not.

As I said in post 19 of this thread ...
Bear in mind that the information I have posted is based not on my opinion but on what is stated in the above leaflet from the UK Health and Safety Executive. Read it, it is non technical and quite interesting.

Here's another, again from the HSE that is a bit more down to earth (no pun intended).

.

I know what H&S says. It is my bread and butter.

PAT Testing, like many areas of Health & Safety are down to interpretation, and the quote "all businesses no matter how big or small require a pat test" is interpretation too. I don't use the word 'law' and I am not saying it is law, in fact I have not mentioned it. But to ensure businesses remain compliant they do require a PAT Test. However what they are compliant with isn't always the law. They would require them for their insurance for example. Also the best way any company can prove that they are taking all necessary action is to have a valid PAT certificate, and to get that they need a test done.

I'll give an example (which I know is fact as I have checked it out and have written correspondance to prove it) - if a business has a fire, and the fire officer says it was started by an electrical appliance, the insurance investigator will ask to see the pat certificate to prove the appliance was tested as fit for use. If the company aren't able to show the certificate it is highly unlikely that the insurance company will pay out.

It is for reasons such as this, and many others, that a company requires a PAT.

However, my website - it is a brochure site that I have no control over, which was built when the company was formed. It is in the process of being replaced, by another site, to be launched in November, which will be a lot better.
 
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As most of us have said, regardless whether its law or requirment the main point again is will this guy still be around next yr, if the answer is yes, he's going to be a busy fool. My feeling on the matter is that he works nights somewhere for an employer and does a sideline in this on his rest days.Ive encountered many fire men and policemen that freelance as something or other on their rest days, and with the current public spending cuts being announced you will see more of this type of worker.

Bri - I think your assumption is spot on. What started as a general query has quickly become a *****ing session at pat testers, albeit based on personal opinion.

As you say regardless whether it is law or not - I don't say it is as I know it isn't but a number of high profile companies do.

This guy may have a great offer on at the moment, to drum up business, the big question is will he still offer that next year. The hairdresser in question said he paid £50 for a job that last year was over £100. Based on his figures (and a guestimate) that would be min 66 items. So this guy is doing the job at 75p per item with no initial fee. And the job will be taking him about 4 hours, that's £12.50 per hour. If he works a 7 hour day, 5 days a week (accounting for breaks) he makes £437.50 per week which is not bad. However, this job is minimum 66 items so there is probably more, meaning his income is less.

The guy may be snowed under with work but he won't make much money or build a very good business.

As you say Bri, I think it is most probably a sideline business for some extra cash. Good luck to him. I work in PAT testing, and I know a lot of other business owners in this game, and none of them would offer this deal, me included. It's just not good business.
 
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But to ensure businesses remain compliant they do require a PAT Test.
Not according to the HSE who quite clearly state...

The myth: All office equipment must be tested by a qualified electrician every year.

The reality: No. The law requires employers to assess risks and take appropriate action. HSE’s advice is that for most office electrical equipment, visual checks for obvious signs of damage or simple tests by a competent member of staff are sufficient.

Another example...

‘I’ve been told I have to have my desk lamp tested every six months. Is this correct? ’
No. The law requires it to be maintained. It does not require an elaborate and frequent system of electrical testing.

.
 
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What started as a general query has quickly become a *****ing session at pat testers, albeit based on personal opinion.

What I am saying is not based on personal opinion at all. It is based on information from the UK Health and Safety Executive and it is not a ******* contest. I am no longer employed in the electrical business and I have no vested interest. I just don't like to see misleading information being posted as fact.
 
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Interesting stuff!

I was trying to get to bottom of it myself. On one had research told me we had a duty to check electricals, but i found nothing concrete saying PAT was mandatory. We then hired Peninsula to help us with H&S, and upon asking, they said we did need it...
 
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Interesting stuff!

I was trying to get to bottom of it myself. On one had research told me we had a duty to check electricals, but i found nothing concrete saying PAT was mandatory. We then hired Peninsula to help us with H&S, and upon asking, they said we did need it...
Do they sell PAT testing?
 
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I'll give an example (which I know is fact as I have checked it out and have written correspondance to prove it) - if a business has a fire, and the fire officer says it was started by an electrical appliance, the insurance investigator will ask to see the pat certificate to prove the appliance was tested as fit for use. If the company aren't able to show the certificate it is highly unlikely that the insurance company will pay out.

---------------------------------------------------------------

I once had a laundry business which was destroyed by a fire. I had not had PAT testing done. The fire was not caused by a portable appliance. The insurance company refused to pay.
 
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Never confuse insurance companies' requirements with legal requirements.
 
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I'll give an example (which I know is fact as I have checked it out and have written correspondance to prove it) - if a business has a fire, and the fire officer says it was started by an electrical appliance, the insurance investigator will ask to see the pat certificate to prove the appliance was tested as fit for use. If the company aren't able to show the certificate it is highly unlikely that the insurance company will pay out.

---------------------------------------------------------------

I once had a laundry business which was destroyed by a fire. I had not had PAT testing done. The fire was not caused by a portable appliance. The insurance company refused to pay.

Was the reason for the fire established?The fire incident officer would have searched for the source of ignition for his report.

And I agree, what insurance companies ask for are hardly ever related to regulation.

Electrical fires are high on statistics for many reasons, mainly faulty or untested/badly wired consumer units/distribution boards.

Appliances are much lower down, even lower than kitchen fires
Source( government statistics 2005)
 
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Was the reason for the fire established?The fire incident officer would have searched for the source of ignition for his report.

-----------------------------------------------------

The cause of the fire was never completely established. The investigators were able to confirm that there was no evidence that the fire was started by an electrical fault. The "most likely" cause was spontaneous combustion, which is not that unusual in laundry fires.
 
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Right people, let's get down to the real nitty gritty here!

I also own a very successful PAT Testing company been going for 7 years now and employ 10 Technicians so I think I know what I am talking about.

I sometimes advertise for Technicians and get replies from some who have worked for other companies and find out that they have been doing it for a few years without any recognised qualifications or real training - I get them in my training room for a day and find they have not got a clue! Don't blame these guys - blame the system - Not being properly trained and the industry not being properly regulated. If I think they will be any good I will re-train them and put them with another Technician for a couple of weeks and then see what they have learned before letting them loose on society. That is taking responsibility.

The guy who is getting his testing done for 42p a test may think he is getting a good deal - but I have got a few items we have FAILED at some of the premises we have visited which the customers have allowed us to take away for training purposes and I would like to plant some of these in his premises before those testers come again to see if they actually FAIL the items! My guess is they won't and that's why he pays 42p a test - I can prove that he is being taken for a ride rather than getting value for money - prove me wrong!

To those who doubt the validity of PAT Testing - approximately 2% of all items inspected and tested fail the test, but that 2% is all that is needed to give someone an electric shock or possibly cause a fire. Let's not argue about the fact that if GENUINE PAT Testing companies do the job correctly once a year then there will be less risk to people using the equipment.

Those of you who are arguing about what the LAW, the HSE or Insurance companies say about PAT Testing are plucking at straws if YOU are not maintaining electrical equipment properly - YOU are putting peoples lives at risk if YOU are looking for a way of avoiding of having your PAT Testing done. Most people will pay £300 plus for one computer but don't want to pay £200 to have 200 electrical items tested to maintain their safety! The reason is that you can see the value of a computer but you can't see the value of the testing.

Let me alarm you with the facts that my Grandson can leave school tomorrow without any training, buy an e-bay special PAT Testing machine for less than £100 and be "PAT Testing" at 25p an item by the end of the week - this is how you get cheap PAT Testing - is that what you want?

I have just had a regular customer phone me who, foolishly, allowed another PAT Testing company do their testing a lot cheaper than us, they "tested" 160 items in less than TWO HOURS and PASSED everything which included a fridge that hadn't been working since we failed it last year and it didn't even have a plug on it!! Needless to say we will be back there shortly to do the job properly.

Let's be clear most of us say the "LAW IS AN ASS" in many cases but we love to use the Law if it is of any benefit to us to avoid paying out money - then the money we save we will then gladly waste in other ways.

Just to finish, like everyone else I hate wasting money, I turn off lights in the house, I don't turn the heating on in every room in the house, I walk to the shops rather than use my car, I only shop for what I need rather than what I would like to have, I don't drink alcahol,(can't even spell it properly), I don't smoke. But my car is maintained and safe to drive and my house is maintained and safe to live in - it's all a case of priorities.

Just had my Gas boiler serviced - it was brand new last year - the engineer found no faults - just cleaned it I paid him £80 - I have got genuine peace of mind and can sleep soundly - is that a scam??
 
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Thanks for the info, do you have any stats on how many fires and how many electric shocks are caused at work through elecrical faults, which could have been prevented by PAT testing? And on those what age was the appliance that caused the issue?
 
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Thanks for the info, do you have any stats on how many fires and how many electric shocks are caused at work through elecrical faults, which could have been prevented by PAT testing? And on those what age was the appliance that caused the issue?

In a word no, the stats only give you generalised figures. Get some advice from Rospa they might give you some info.
 
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As long as the person/company is qualified, then shop around to get the best price. But beware, there are a number of cowboys that could end the business owner in trouble if a member of staff gets a shock or an electrical fire starts (insurance company claim invalid).
 
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While it is understandable that PAT testing companies portray this situation differently the Health and Safety commission do offer objective advice about this. As I said two months ago their website clearly states ...



The myth: All office equipment must be tested by a qualified electrician every year.

The reality: No. The law requires employers to assess risks and take appropriate action. HSE’s advice is that for most office electrical equipment, visual checks for obvious signs of damage or simple tests by a competent member of staff are sufficient.

Another example...

‘I’ve been told I have to have my desk lamp tested every six months. Is this correct? ’
No. The law requires it to be maintained. It does not require an elaborate and frequent system of electrical testing.
 
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It is a common misconception that you have to have a PAT test by law. Many companies will say you do, but you don't. I own a PAT testing business, and I am very proud to that, I am also very honest and would never tell a client or prospective client that they have to have it done as they don't. However good advice is that having it done can be a benefit to the company for the following reasons:

piece of mind appliances are safe
protection against insurance or HSE investigation

To the post above - no, you don't have to have a desk lamp tested every 6 months. At least it should be every 12 months, but frequency is dependant on many factors. One being the environment, another being in it's use and another being in who has access to it.

No one can say exactly how often it should be done without being at the site, seeing the environment and asking the questions.
 
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But the HSE say "The law requires it to be maintained. It does not require an elaborate and frequent system of electrical testing. "
 
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I recently had a cold call from a PAT testing company who were selling their services and explained that PAT testing was required by law.

I told them that I'm a sole trader working from home with no employees, but they advised me that I was still breaking the law by not having my electrical equipment tested.
 
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I recently had a cold call from a PAT testing company who were selling their services and explained that PAT testing was required by law.

I told them that I'm a sole trader working from home with no employees, but they advised me that I was still breaking the law by not having my electrical equipment tested.


Did you hang up:rolleyes:?
 
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[FONT=&quot]Contrary to popular belief, there is no legal requirement to have the electrical equipment tested but, the law does impose a duty upon employers to protect their employees and members of the public that come into contact with appliances.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If your staff or members of the public are injured through badly maintained electrical equipment, YOU will be held responsible! YOU could face a fine of many thousands of pounds, plus time in prison, depending upon the severity of the injury. Remember that ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law! Even if you didn't realise that the item was faulty, you will still be liable, and will face the full force of the law![/FONT]
 
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[FONT=&quot]Contrary to popular belief, there is no legal requirement to have the electrical equipment tested but, the law does impose a duty upon employers to protect their employees and members of the public that come into contact with appliances.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If your staff or members of the public are injured through badly maintained electrical equipment, YOU will be held responsible! YOU could face a fine of many thousands of pounds, plus time in prison, depending upon the severity of the injury. Remember that ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law! Even if you didn't realise that the item was faulty, you will still be liable, and will face the full force of the law![/FONT]
 
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Was the second one for emphasis?

Regarding your comment I would say that only the silliest of people would think otherwise. Most people who are employers are aware of personal and public liability. Whether they choose to do anything about it another matter.
 
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I get cold called regularly and they all infer that I'm breaking the law if I don't test my equipment. I ask them which particular piece of legislation they are talking about - most have no idea, a few make a stab at something vaguely linked. I then ask them about their equipment and again, they fudge like mad. Then I tell them what I think of their scaremongering tactics and hang up.

Don't forget that in reality, I'd estimate over 80% of items that fail, I know are going to fail from the visual inspection - which everyone can do for themselves - looking for loose parts, bare wires, exposed insulation, missing screws - that kind of thing. If people did this, then the actual quantity of kit you pay people to test would be lower. Spotting the exposed conductor on an iron through wear just means throw it away, as it's cheaper to replace than a test + repair!
 
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But the HSE say "The law requires it to be maintained. It does not require an elaborate and frequent system of electrical testing. "

That is correct - notice the word "law" in your statement. The LAW doesn't require a PAT test - the HSE don't say a PAT Test is required However the HSE do say that you have to be able to prove that you have taken all available steps to ensure your appliances are safe. A PAT test is the easiest way to PROVE that you have done that.

We must remember not to confuse laws with recommendations or advice.
 
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I recently had a cold call from a PAT testing company who were selling their services and explained that PAT testing was required by law.

I told them that I'm a sole trader working from home with no employees, but they advised me that I was still breaking the law by not having my electrical equipment tested.

Hello

Firstly - you're not breaking any law. It is this type of cowboy that gives the rest of us a bad name.

As a sole trader working from home you don't need to get your PAT Testing done unless you have told your insurance company you're running a business from home and they request it be done.

However, if you haven't told your home/buildings insurer you're working from home and you have a fire, directly caused by business equipment, your insurer could say that you didn't tell them you were running a business from home, thus deeming your insurance null and void.

So, a PAT Tester can't say you're doing anything wrong but if you take my advice - ask your insurance company. It may mean a little extra on your premium but it could save you a lot in the worst case scenario.
 
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[FONT=&quot]Contrary to popular belief, there is no legal requirement to have the electrical equipment tested but, the law does impose a duty upon employers to protect their employees and members of the public that come into contact with appliances.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If your staff or members of the public are injured through badly maintained electrical equipment, YOU will be held responsible! YOU could face a fine of many thousands of pounds, plus time in prison, depending upon the severity of the injury. Remember that ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law! Even if you didn't realise that the item was faulty, you will still be liable, and will face the full force of the law![/FONT]

Here here! This is exactly the point I make to people. Ignorance is a big risk... "oh I'll not bother with a PAT test, it's not needed and will save me a few quid" I hear so many saying, but then.... something happens and corporate manslaughter comes along and you get hit with a huge fine. It's a big big risk to take.

I compare PAT Testing to CRB's and MOT's -

do you run your car without an MOT?
do you let someone work in a school without a CRB?

So, why let your staff use equipment without a PAT?
 
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but then.... something happens and corporate manslaughter comes along and you get hit with a huge fine.
Ah, so now we are going to start killing people are we? Demonstrate this by showing me some examples of people who have died as a result of the lack of a PAT test or companies who have had their insurance voided for that reason?

With respect that is both wrong and misleading.

do you run your car without an MOT?
With respect that is scaremongering, false and misleading. You are doing virtually the same as the guy who called paulears. MOTs are a legal requirement. The law demands that you have an MOT. There is no need to have a PAT certificate.

.
 
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Lets face it, PAT is not a legal requirement but it's better to have! Even if for a bit of personal peace of mind.

To be honest though, if one of my employees blows himself up on a photo copier, it will make no difference whether that printer was PAT tested or not, I'm still gonna be in big trouble!

There is absolutely no comparison between a car's MOT and a PAT test on an item of office equipment! An MOT is a legal rewuirement and and a PAT test is not. The damage that could be caused by a dodgy car is (in MOST cases) a lot more than would be caused by a dodgy electric pencil sharpener! :)
 
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This really isn't getting anywhere. The testing companies quite obviously have their quite established reasonable interpretation of the legislation - and for those who don't sensationalise and intimidate, it's fine - I've no beef at all with it. What just worries me is the inference that PAT is the 'only' way. It's not to my knowledge ever been tested in court and is just a convenient code of practice, method of working that would offer some protection if legal process was started. However, the testing company who bought a tester, sent somebody on a course to learn how to PAT are not quite as protected as they believe, because their testing methods will be put under scrutiny in any legal case after an incident. "It passed, so was safe" won't stand up. They'll investigate the circumstances of the test and use that to support the case (or not).

Let's just look at a common piece of equipment I use frequently. Testers unfamiliar with it attach the earth clamp, run the test and conclude it is safe. However, this particular piece of kit has the insulation for the rear section bonded by an internal braid as it has to be opened for re-lamping. If this bond has failed - which happens a lot, it should fail - but inexperienced testers use the blindingly obvious place to attach the clamp. This is 100% the wrong place - but they wouldn't know, and would be a good example of how testing by generalists can produce PASS when it should be fail. Those in the know, would fail it and fix it. The nice 17 yr old with their new certificate would pass it. So my view is that blanket testing is perhaps in some cases a poor way to do it. You'd look pretty silly in court when they produce a specialist who proves your entire testing regime is flawed.

Another good example is where an unsupervised testing team cut off every single 15A plug on our equipment, citing them as dangerous and not having sleeved pins. It took a long time to replace them all, and of course after doing so, none had still been given pass stickers - the test not having been completed because they panicked when they saw the plugs.

There are competent testers and there are those who blindly follow a check list. How does the customer know which is which?
 
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Ah, so now we are going to start killing people are we? Demonstrate this by showing me some examples of people who have died as a result of the lack of a PAT test or companies who have had their insurance voided for that reason?

With respect that is both wrong and misleading.

With respect that is scaremongering, false and misleading. You are doing virtually the same as the guy who called paulears. MOTs are a legal requirement. The law demands that you have an MOT. There is no need to have a PAT certificate.

.

Hi BDW, and everyone else. I think all this is getting out of hand. Like most people on here I'm just trying to run a business, I'm not trying to rip people off or scaremonger. PAT Testing is a take it or leave it exercise, and everyone has their own opinion, that's fine.

I can't give examples of people who have died as a result of not having a pat test as that won't happen, but people can die as a result of a faulty appliance. That appliance may have been discovered had it been tested. I do know of companies who have folded or not had insurance payouts due to deaths and fires, resulting from faulty appliances, and those companies had not been tested.

The MOT is an example, it is a good way of showing that a PAT can be important. I'm not saying PAT is a legal requirement, and make it clear I haven't done that.

I don't know why we are all bickering here. Some people are trying to give an honest point of view and some are just being unfairly *****y. Everyone will disagree with something in life, and their are many other businesses out there in many sectors who do something I don't agree with but I wouldn't slag them off on here to them, that's just not fair. This forum is for us to help each other.
 
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Lets face it, PAT is not a legal requirement but it's better to have! Even if for a bit of personal peace of mind.

To be honest though, if one of my employees blows himself up on a photo copier, it will make no difference whether that printer was PAT tested or not, I'm still gonna be in big trouble!

There is absolutely no comparison between a car's MOT and a PAT test on an item of office equipment! An MOT is a legal rewuirement and and a PAT test is not. The damage that could be caused by a dodgy car is (in MOST cases) a lot more than would be caused by a dodgy electric pencil sharpener! :)

OK, maybe the MOT was a bad example, just seemed like an easy reference. I apologise, no offense was meant by it.

With regards to the employee blowing himself up, I can't give you examples as that is confidential, but I do know from personal experience of a case were an employee got a serious shock off an electrical appliance, and sued his employers. After a long drawn out court case the company was found guilty of negligence. The judge advised that employer should have take action to ensure equipment was safe on a regular basis - no maintenance, pat or anything else had ever been done. The judge suggested the employer consider getting pat tests done. It may not have stopped him losing the case, but it would have showed that he had at least tried to make sure the appliance was safe.
 
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This really isn't getting anywhere. The testing companies quite obviously have their quite established reasonable interpretation of the legislation - and for those who don't sensationalise and intimidate, it's fine - I've no beef at all with it. What just worries me is the inference that PAT is the 'only' way. It's not to my knowledge ever been tested in court and is just a convenient code of practice, method of working that would offer some protection if legal process was started. However, the testing company who bought a tester, sent somebody on a course to learn how to PAT are not quite as protected as they believe, because their testing methods will be put under scrutiny in any legal case after an incident. "It passed, so was safe" won't stand up. They'll investigate the circumstances of the test and use that to support the case (or not).

You're right about it getting out of hand. 2 points - A PAT is the only certificate that is issued to show there is a procedure in place. However it's not the only way to show items are safe - a good maintenance programme does the same, but how many companies can say 100% that all of their equipment is managed and maintained properly? Not many.

Let's just look at a common piece of equipment I use frequently. Testers unfamiliar with it attach the earth clamp, run the test and conclude it is safe. However, this particular piece of kit has the insulation for the rear section bonded by an internal braid as it has to be opened for re-lamping. If this bond has failed - which happens a lot, it should fail - but inexperienced testers use the blindingly obvious place to attach the clamp. This is 100% the wrong place - but they wouldn't know, and would be a good example of how testing by generalists can produce PASS when it should be fail. Those in the know, would fail it and fix it. The nice 17 yr old with their new certificate would pass it. So my view is that blanket testing is perhaps in some cases a poor way to do it. You'd look pretty silly in court when they produce a specialist who proves your entire testing regime is flawed.

This is very good point, and you are 100% right. PAT testers that are good at their job are those that do it as their main or only job, doing it every day. They know these issues. I know for example when my machine says an item passed, that it in fact didn't due to the readings, and I know how to correct that. I also know the other way.

Companies that send someone on a short course, by them a machine and get a guy to do it once a year are walking a tightrope as he will have forgotten everything he learnt by the next time.

Another good example is where an unsupervised testing team cut off every single 15A plug on our equipment, citing them as dangerous and not having sleeved pins. It took a long time to replace them all, and of course after doing so, none had still been given pass stickers - the test not having been completed because they panicked when they saw the plugs.

As for this - I hate when people chop plugs off - if they need replacing, then replace them. However a 15A plug is different to the normal and should only be checked by someone who knows them. I do a lot of theatre work, and come accross a lot of 15A plugs attached to lighting usually, and know that special procedures have to be set up in the machine's memory, and that the visual test is different too.

There are competent testers and there are those who blindly follow a check list. How does the customer know which is which?

The customer doesn't until the job has been done, and that's a problem. However, it is the same in virtually every other business... how do you know that doctor is good? that solicitor? that web designer? that seo man for example, like the SEO guy that quoted me £300 per month for 6 months to do my SEO, which turned out to be 1 hour a month, and he had no knowledge of SEO except what had read in books - someone else's opinion.
 
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I note that you are still claiming on your website that PAT testing is a requirement when the HSE actually go out of their way to emphasise that this is not so http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/july.htm.

Myth:
All office equipment must be tested by a qualified electrician every year.

The reality
No. The law requires employers to assess risks and take appropriate action.
HSE’s advice is that for most office electrical equipment, visual checks for obvious signs of damage and perhaps simple tests by a competent member of staff are quite sufficient.
 
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In fact there isn't even a requirement for an electrician to be qualified at all - unless he wishes to work in rooms in a house that are covered under specific rules - the infamous 'part p'. The really crazy thing is that the man who installs, repairs and services high voltage, high current equipment for factories and power plants and the national grid (things that can kill you just by getting close) is not allowed to wire you up a new light fitting in your bathroom for 'safety' reasons.
 
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I note that you are still claiming on your website that PAT testing is a requirement when the HSE actually go out of their way to emphasise that this is not so http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/july.htm.


2 points to make - I am getting a new website built which is not live yet
and the site your looking at I have no control over. It was hacked, and the developer and I have fallen out. I have been trying to get that removed for some time.
 
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2 points to make - I am getting a new website built which is not live yet
and the site your looking at I have no control over. It was hacked, and the developer and I have fallen out. I have been trying to get that removed for some time.

I should add. You will see how much I want that to be removed by the fact that I am paying a lot of money to get the website rebuilt, and re-contented. I have said many times on this forum about my site and the problems with it. I have also stressed in many posts that it is NOT law and that an electrician is not required and to be honest I'm getting sick of having to repeat myself
 
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