PAT Testing

[paulears]

I thought the balance of wording you use on the draelectricals.co.uk is pretty good, actually. Making the point, but not really attempting to frighten people.

I was, however, intrigued with the fact you mention quite often the entertainments industry (where I work mostly) and talk about bands, theatres etc - yet in another section you list the kit you can test must have certain types of connector - yet you miss out 15A which is still the most common type in use in theatres, and still being installed in new buildings. Just wondered if there was a reason?

 

[draelectricals]

I thought the balance of wording you use on the draelectricals.co.uk is pretty good, actually. Making the point, but not really attempting to frighten people.

I was, however, intrigued with the fact you mention quite often the entertainments industry (where I work mostly) and talk about bands, theatres etc - yet in another section you list the kit you can test must have certain types of connector - yet you miss out 15A which is still the most common type in use in theatres, and still being installed in new buildings. Just wondered if there was a reason?

Hi Paul

The website is a sore point - looks awful for starters, but as I say it's in the process of being rebuilt with a new look and design, and CMS so I can control it. I'm busy working on the pages at the moment actually, hoping it can go live by the end of the week.

I mention the entertainment industry as it's a passion of mine, having worked in the nightclub industry and also heavily involved in the theatre as a hobby - amateur level only unfortunately. The missing 15A is an oversight, but rest assured it is included on the new site.

 

[bdw]

I have also stressed in many posts that it is NOT law and that an electrician is not required and to be honest I'm getting sick of having to repeat myself

So are you saying it was the hacker who wrote this ...

All businesses no matter how big or small require a PAT Test (wrong). A PAT Test ensures the safety of electrical appliances (wrong), that is ANY electrical appliance fitted with a plug. Some people say that you only need a PAT Test if you have 5 or more staff - that is a myth. Any business, even if it is a sole trader, requires a PAT Test (wrong). A Pat test doesn't just provide assurances to staff, but to the public, insurance companies and the HSE. (wrong)

This is not a witch hunt but if you want to argue your point so forcibly you must expect people to take you to task for misleading claims like this. You are accountable for that.

.

 

[draelectricals]

So are you saying it was the hacker who wrote this ...
This is not a witch hunt but if you want to argue your point so forcibly you must expect people to take you to task for misleading claims like this. You are accountable for that.

Ok fair enough, but let's not go over the top. Some of my statements may have been misleading but now you're speaking for everyone... Ok I see from what you have pulled up I have mis-quoted myself, however I have not said it is a legal requirement, just used the wrong wording. We can't all be great at everything. However, how can you say it doesn't provide assurances to the hse, insurers, staff etc? - Can you prove that comment?

Quote:
I have also stressed in many posts that it is NOT law and that an electrician is not required and to be honest I'm getting sick of having to repeat myself
So are you saying it was the hacker who wrote this ...
Quote:
All businesses no matter how big or small require a PAT Test (wrong). A PAT Test ensures the safety of electrical appliances (wrong), that is ANY electrical appliance fitted with a plug. Some people say that you only need a PAT Test if you have 5 or more staff - that is a myth. Any business, even if it is a sole trader, requires a PAT Test (wrong). A Pat test doesn't just provide assurances to staff, but to the public, insurance companies and the HSE. (wrong)
This is not a witch hunt but if you want to argue your point so forcibly you must expect people to take you to task for misleading claims like this. You are accountable for that.

.

 

[draelectricals]

I'd like to post a statement before this thread goes too far, as it's starting to feel like a witch hunt.

I may have said the wrong things in this post, I may have worded posts incorrectly, and I am being pulled up on that. What is said here will probably bring repercussions but there is nothing I can do about that.

PAT Testing is my business, and I will fight my corner - do you want me just to roll over and give up?

With regards to my website, it is out dated, being redesigned and managed as we speak and by the end of this week should be going live, with new, fresher and appropriate content.

Let me state for the record - there is no law that says PAT Testing has to be done. I say this often enough and use this statement in a lot of my marketing, but I appear to have slipped up in a comment on here and used the word 'require' which is my error, for which I apologise.

I use many marketing techniques, just like the majority of you do, after all we are in business to succeed and will do what we have to do to make sure our businesses survive, I always strive to be honest, but bending the truth is expected - all these companies that say they are 'Number 1' for example - can they prove that? No, but we can't prove they're not.

I will continue to fight my corner, just like I expect you to fight yours for your business, but come on people this is starting to get personal, for no apparent reason.

 

[Bri]

Well said Richard and heartily agree with you.

 

[saxondale]

2 points to make - I am getting a new website built which is not live yet
and the site your looking at I have no control over. It was hacked, and the developer and I have fallen out. I have been trying to get that removed for some time.

is that the same site you link to in your profile? hmm....................

 

[Parthelan]

I always strive to be honest, but bending the truth is expected

You were doing so well up to that point ......

Lol ... bending the truth is to be expected lol ....

You remind me of the qualified corgi registered plumber I had working with me on a diy job at home - he was fitting the cistern, I was laying pipes elsewhere. Managed to get him on a good day rate to work with me to speed the job up as a lot of tradespeople dont like working like that.
And STILL he couldnt help trying it on - telling me the float was the wrong type and wouldnt let enought water into the cistern, but he had a spare in the van he'd sell me and fit there and then. Lol. He let me flush the toilet a few times to see for myself how there wasnt enough water getting into to give a decent flush.

Take it out, adjust the level properly and stop p1$$ing about I sez.

Oh right he sez

Maybe that's why I do 99.9% of my own work - bending the truth is to be expected from tradespeople (allegedly!) ;-)

 

[bdw]

You were doing so well up to that point ......

Precisely, look there was nothing personal in this. You are digging the hole for yourself DRA. This started off as a discussion about the cost of PAT testing and nothing else.

 

[draelectricals]

is that the same site you link to in your profile? hmm....................

The site in it's present state is live. it will be in it's new state soon

 

[draelectricals]

You were doing so well up to that point ......

Lol ... bending the truth is to be expected lol ....

You remind me of the qualified corgi registered plumber I had working with me on a diy job at home - he was fitting the cistern, I was laying pipes elsewhere. Managed to get him on a good day rate to work with me to speed the job up as a lot of tradespeople dont like working like that.
And STILL he couldnt help trying it on - telling me the float was the wrong type and wouldnt let enought water into the cistern, but he had a spare in the van he'd sell me and fit there and then. Lol. He let me flush the toilet a few times to see for myself how there wasnt enough water getting into to give a decent flush.

Take it out, adjust the level properly and stop p1$$ing about I sez.

Oh right he sez

Maybe that's why I do 99.9% of my own work - bending the truth is to be expected from tradespeople (allegedly!) ;-)

Ok I'm digging that hole again. I didn't mean bending the truth in the work I do, I meant people bend the truth in marketing.

 

[draelectricals]

Precisely, look there was nothing personal in this. You are digging the hole for yourself DRA. This started off as a discussion about the cost of PAT testing and nothing else.

I know, I went wrong somewhere! :redface:

 

[paulears]

Look - PAT is hardly the worst area, and deemed not worth investigating by the authorities. If you really want to look for crazy advertising to the gullible - http://www.russandrews.com/product....&customer_id=PAA0530013411637JHMGGXUTLHEJTIDM

A 13 Amp plug to IEC connector (yep - as in kettle type) For £933 IN THE SALE!!!

Now anyone care to see justification of how this claim can be justified?

The result is a PowerKord that lets you hear all of the power, emotion and music in your recordings. Top scale Hi-Fi and Home Cinema systems will sound and look like you've never known before.

 

[bdw]

What Claim?

 

[draelectricals]

What Claim?

I'm with you on this... I'm confused, what claim?

 

[saxondale]

The site in it's present state is live. it will be in it's new state soon

just poking you for fun - so a site thats been hacked and out of your control (but oddly been worked on atm) and contains incorrect information is still been pointed at by YOUR link from this website?

I find that strange.

 

[draelectricals]

Hi All

My new look website is now live, same address. Let me know what you think please, I'd appreciate your comments.

It's not totally finished, there are still pages to add when I have time to do them

Cheers

 

[TotallySport]

the site has some major flaws

all your web pages use the same url with a vaiable, this is rubbish for SEO

You have different colours of text which looks rubbish, but you have blue text, and blue text makes people think its link so shouldn't really be used

your links at the bottom don't change to a hand point finger on rollover

the news letter box doesn't align properly on some pages

the favicom needs changing to represent your site

your breadcrumbs are two dark against the background

the social networking links have had there colours changed so are no longer quickly recongised

without wanting to sound harsh it looks like someone designed it the back of their bedroom, but I didn't see your other site

you might want to start a new thread on it.

 

[draelectricals]

Thanks for your honesty... if I can just respond...

the site has some major flaws

all your web pages use the same url with a vaiable, this is rubbish for SEO

that's gettting changed

You have different colours of text which looks rubbish, but you have blue text, and blue text makes people think its link so shouldn't really be used

Which bits look rubbish?
The blue text is links

your links at the bottom don't change to a hand point finger on rollover

Correct I had not noticed that

the news letter box doesn't align properly on some pages

We are aware of that and it's getting fixed

the favicom needs changing to represent your site

The what?

your breadcrumbs are two dark against the background

The breadcrumbs - I picked that colour because I didn't want them to stand out too much

the social networking links have had there colours changed so are no longer quickly recongised

I did this on purpose as my site is the main content focus not facebook

without wanting to sound harsh it looks like someone designed it the back of their bedroom, but I didn't see your other site

It's a million times better than my previous site and I am very happy with it.

you might want to start a new thread on it.

I was hoping for feedback based more on the content, due to posts previously in this thread

 

[TotallySport]

Thanks for your honesty... if I can just respond...



I was hoping for feedback based more on the content, due to posts previously in this thread

i try not to read if I can help it lol,

however based on the comments above I would suggest the statement below is wrong, as it indicates that it is required by law for PAT testing;

Any landlord who lets accommodation for residential purposes whether it be an appartment, flat, house, holiday home, caravan or even a boat as a business, is required by law to ensure the electrical appliances they supply as part of the tenancy are regularly PAT Tested and safe.

This is detailed in the Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations Act 1994 that states electrical equipment connected to the mains which is supplied with the accomodation must be safe. Equipment includes cookers, fridge-freezers, washing machines, kettles, toasters, TV's, new or second hand. Landlords therefore need to reguarly PAT Test and maintain all electrical equipment periodically, as they may become faulty over time.

 

[draelectricals]

i try not to read if I can help it lol,

however based on the comments above I would suggest the statement below is wrong, as it indicates that it is required by law for PAT testing;

Any landlord who lets accommodation for residential purposes whether it be an appartment, flat, house, holiday home, caravan or even a boat as a business, is required by law to ensure the electrical appliances they supply as part of the tenancy are regularly PAT Tested and safe.

This is detailed in the Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations Act 1994 that states electrical equipment connected to the mains which is supplied with the accomodation must be safe. Equipment includes cookers, fridge-freezers, washing machines, kettles, toasters, TV's, new or second hand. Landlords therefore need to reguarly PAT Test and maintain all electrical equipment periodically, as they may become faulty over time.

You're correct the wording was wrong. I had missed out a chunk of the sentence, oops. I've updated that now. It is law in rented properties that landlords check their appliances are safe, and it is recommended in the link that the checks are carried out by a suitably qualified electrical engineer.

 

[paulears]

The only fault is people assuming the PAT is something in legislation when it's merely just one tool in proving compliance.

 

[draelectricals]

The only fault is people assuming the PAT is something in legislation when it's merely just one tool in proving compliance.

You are of course right, and I am trying very hard to ensure my site doesn't say that PAT Testing is law. I do even state that on the site. However there are differing rules for different sectors, such as in the landlord situation there is a requirement that checks are done by an electrician, for example

 

[paulears]

That's another snag though, isn't it. I deal with pretty large power supplies, and have a number of people here who are called (on their contracts) electricians. They are not what you'd want, though.

All these rules, regulations and codes of practice exist for are simply to prevent people getting injured. Nobody is really expected to understand them - they are meant to be reactive. Firms offering testing are using them in a pro-active way, so it's not surprising they get bent a little.

I think most people in the know can spot deliberate scam style companies, but it's so difficult to be 100% correct. You put your web site up for scrutiny, and I don't expect anyone has a web site totally waterproof.

PAT is just a difficult one - because we all know of dodgy kit that got passed and safe kit that was failed!

 

[draelectricals]

That's another snag though, isn't it. I deal with pretty large power supplies, and have a number of people here who are called (on their contracts) electricians. They are not what you'd want, though.

All these rules, regulations and codes of practice exist for are simply to prevent people getting injured. Nobody is really expected to understand them - they are meant to be reactive. Firms offering testing are using them in a pro-active way, so it's not surprising they get bent a little.

I think most people in the know can spot deliberate scam style companies, but it's so difficult to be 100% correct. You put your web site up for scrutiny, and I don't expect anyone has a web site totally waterproof.

PAT is just a difficult one - because we all know of dodgy kit that got passed and safe kit that was failed!

You're right but electrics like any other field has problems, but it also has a diversity of disciplines, which is not a bad thing. I have a very good friend who is an electrician of very high calibre who works all over the world, but i wouldn't ask him to do work in my house as he wouldn't have a clue.

On the other hand, I do PAT Testing because I believe in not, not as another string to my bow. I see PAT testing as my main business, becuase I feel it is important - many will disagree but that's their choice.

I think with PAT Testing you need to deal with a PAT Tester. Not the company that offers re-wires and PAT Testing when it's quiet. You could go to an electrician with 30 years experience, but he won't have a clue how to PAT Test. It's best to speak to people who do it all day every day. But then I'm not a lawyer, so I don't deal with the law every day, I just have to do my best to tell people what the law means to my profession.

There are many laws that say things have to be done to prove different things (not going into all the details) and PAT testing is a very good way to prove that action has been taken. You can get a maintenance company to do maintenance on the appliances, which works jsut the same but the difference is they are very unlikely to provide you with evidence that a check has been done on every appliance.

I put my website up for scrutiny on purpose, becuase I want to avoid the pitfalls. Better to get it checked and pulled up on here than by a prospective client on the web, don't you think?

As for dodgy kit, you're very right. I have to follow other companies that did the last test and see how shoddy their work is and it makes me cringe. On a job this week I came across a 4 gang extension that couldn't be used properly because the last testers stuck their passed label over the pin holes (avoiding jargon) where a plug could have been inserted.

I have met many 'cowboys' in my time in the business, I know what you're talking about.

 

[paulears]

You could go to an electrician with 30 years experience, but he won't have a clue how to PAT Test.

He damn well ought to! 30 years against a one day course? Come on!

Experience will clearly identify problems with certain appliances even before the test gets out of the case. Plug in, attach probe, press button.

Could your testers use manual testing methods if the tester failed? Could they actually measure the current and do the maths to determine the status without the machine. Do they even understand what the machine is actually doing? We hear tales of people destroying certain equipment because it needed specific test conditions that would be obvious to the experienced eye, but not a test machine operator.

Blind use of a machine without understanding worries me. One day, one of the cowboy firms will mess up badly and somebody will die as a result of their incompetence - then we'll find fast over-reactive legislation.

 

[Billy O'Naire]

could a student set up their own pat testing company?

 

[paulears]

Indeed they could - which rather amplifies the problem.

 

[telemarketing_genius]

The entire pat testing industry exists on a bending of the requirements by law.

 

[bdw]

You could go to an electrician with 30 years experience, but he won't have a clue how to PAT Test.

I started my apprenticeship in John Brown's shipyard in Clydebank in 1964 and I worked in the electrical industry without a break until 2001. That's 37 years!

In this period I didn't do one PAT test but for you to suggest that I would not know how to do it is an insult. For a properly trained electrician a PAT test is an extremely simple and basic procedure. It's actually on a par with checking a fuse so please do not try to suggest that it is something special that involves any sort of high technology because that it ain't!

 

[draelectricals]

He damn well ought to! 30 years against a one day course? Come on!

Experience will clearly identify problems with certain appliances even before the test gets out of the case. Plug in, attach probe, press button.

Could your testers use manual testing methods if the tester failed? Could they actually measure the current and do the maths to determine the status without the machine. Do they even understand what the machine is actually doing? We hear tales of people destroying certain equipment because it needed specific test conditions that would be obvious to the experienced eye, but not a test machine operator.

Blind use of a machine without understanding worries me. One day, one of the cowboy firms will mess up badly and somebody will die as a result of their incompetence - then we'll find fast over-reactive legislation.

You know Paul, it's impossible to win with you. I merely agreed with your comment but once again you shoot me down. You really are a very negative person. So rather than sparking another reaction from you by agreeing with you again I'm going to end the conversation as I fear it could go on for ever and get us nowhere. Let's just agree to disagree.

Electricians are great at what they do, but they have different disciplines and different ways to do things. As do PAT testers, but you are lumping everyone in the same boat and not giving respect to those with the knowledge and experience. You're saying everyone knows nothing which is extremely unfair and derogatory, and to be quite honest I find you rather abusive.

 

[draelectricals]

The entire pat testing industry exists on a bending of the requirements by law.

And the entire tele-marketing world exists on perfect truth and morals?

I employed a tele-marketing company, I gave them good information and great scripts. They booked me 20 appointments in the first week, 12 of those when I arrived didn't want the appointment and the other 8 only booked as they were scared of being prosecuted because they had been told it was law, by the tele-marketing company.

The PAT testing industry exists on it's own merits of providing a service which proves that an appliance, when tested is safe. Which is PAT Testing is. Some people bend the law, some people misunderstand what is being said, but that happens in many fields.

 

[draelectricals]

I started my apprenticeship in John Brown's shipyard in Clydebank in 1964 and I worked in the electrical industry without a break until 2001. That's 37 years!

In this period I didn't do one PAT test but for you to suggest that I would not know how to do it is an insult. For a properly trained electrician a PAT test is an extremely simple and basic procedure. It's actually on a par with checking a fuse so please do not try to suggest that it is something special that involves any sort of high technology because that it ain't!

I've sent you a private message

 

[draelectricals]

I started my apprenticeship in John Brown's shipyard in Clydebank in 1964 and I worked in the electrical industry without a break until 2001. That's 37 years!

In this period I didn't do one PAT test but for you to suggest that I would not know how to do it is an insult. For a properly trained electrician a PAT test is an extremely simple and basic procedure. It's actually on a par with checking a fuse so please do not try to suggest that it is something special that involves any sort of high technology because that it ain't!

Checking the fuse is a small part of the PAT test. You have your opinion, I have mine.

 

[Parthelan]

Blimey - you came on here for a bit of feedback on your website and have had nothing but a good kicking - to be fair, you've conducted yourself well in the circumstances.

 

[draelectricals]

Blimey - you came on here for a bit of feedback on your website and have had nothing but a good kicking - to be fair, you've conducted yourself well in the circumstances.

Thank you, nice to know I have some support. Think these guys just don't like PAT Testers, which is a shame, as I'm a nice guy