What makes the Israeli Army the greatest in the world?

[Cornish Steve]

It's like visiting a Third World country. There are plenty of flags around, and lots of men walking around with rifles, but the people are very poor and dirty. Most are unemployed, so they sit around or gather in groups. It's very sad to see all that potential going to waste.

There was power, for sure, and water. There were stores and vendors, so no obvious shortage of food - although looks can be deceptive. What hits you, as with most Third World countries, is how poorly maintained are the streets and the housing. While there's plenty going on, you get no sense of activity. On the surface, it all seems rather aimless - although that too can be deceptive.

There was quite a crowd of people at the Israeli checkpoint, waiting in line to enter the country. Many Palestinians have jobs in Israel and need to pass through these checkpoints, which have been the target of many attacks. It's sad because the actions of the extremists hurt these local people terribly. Where there's a lack of trust, there must be heavy security - and you see just that.

I've never visited any of the refugee camps, and this is where most of the problems exist. It must be tough to live there, and I'm sure they are a hotbed of rebellion and resentment. Still, the people are there because their ancestors chose to leave Israel and not stay (as demanded by Israel) when neighbouring countries attacked. Shouldn't those countries, Jordan and so on, have repatriated the refugees by now? Instead, they are kept in camps to serve the political purposes of leaders. As Earl stated, a handful of heartless leaders can shape the destiny of many many people.

Let me mention briefly that I know several executives in Israel, and many of them run projects and invest a lot money to help the Arab community. They feel very bad about the situation and want to do practical things to help. As I mentioned earlier, most of the people who live there, on both sides of the divide, are decent human beings and want to help those in need.

 

[Sacha]

Who are you quoting Beagle? I haven't mentioned 'human right's' once. The only person looking silly here is you my friend.

 

[Sacha]

It's like visiting a Third World country. There are plenty of flags around, and lots of men walking around with rifles, but the people are very poor and dirty. Most are unemployed, so they sit around or gather in groups. It's very sad to see all that potential going to waste.

There was power, for sure, and water. There were stores and vendors, so no obvious shortage of food - although looks can be deceptive. What hits you, as with most Third World countries, is how poorly maintained are the streets and the housing. While there's plenty going on, you get no sense of activity. On the surface, it all seems rather aimless - although that too can be deceptive.

There was quite a crowd of people at the Israeli checkpoint, waiting in line to enter the country. Many Palestinians have jobs in Israel and need to pass through these checkpoints, which have been the target of many attacks. It's sad because the actions of the extremists hurt these local people terribly. Where there's a lack of trust, there must be heavy security - and you see just that.

I've never visited any of the refugee camps, and this is where most of the problems exist. It must be tough to live there, and I'm sure they are a hotbed of rebellion and resentment. Still, the people are there because their ancestors chose to leave Israel and not stay (as demanded by Israel) when neighbouring countries attacked. Shouldn't those countries, Jordan and so on, have repatriated the refugees by now? Instead, they are kept in camps to serve the political purposes of leaders. As Earl stated, a handful of heartless leaders can shape the destiny of many many people.

Let me mention briefly that I know several executives in Israel, and many of them run projects and invest a lot money to help the Arab community. They feel very bad about the situation and want to do practical things to help. As I mentioned earlier, most of the people who live there, on both sides of the divide, are decent human beings and want to help those in need.

Why then does Israel insist on disallowing 3,500 basic items from entering Gaza? Why is it that only 25% of goods enter Gaza compared to before Israeli occupation? Why can they not legally acquire chocolate, jam, canned fruit? Shoes and clothes were only recently allowed.

Why is it that the UN says that 67% of Palestinians are food 'insecure'. Half of Gazans rely on credit to buy food. No fuel for vehicles has been allowed in since 2008!

The UN says the blockade has done 'irreversible economic damage' that before unemployment was 30% - now 40%. That if they discounted aid 70% of Palestinians would be under $1 a day. The blockade has stopped Palestine from being able to export furniture, textiles and raw produce worth half a million dollars a day to its economy.

Before the blockade, 3,900 industrial premises were operating, employing 35,000 people - by June 2008, only 90 were still functioning, employing only 860, according to the Palestinian Trade Center. The situation improved slightly during the truce.

The black-listing of construction materials such as concrete has made 12,000 homes damaged by Israel (many, many more than what was damaged by Palestinian terrorism) impossible to rebuild.

3 hospitals were damaged by Israel, a new building in one completely destroyed. A lot of medical problems exist because of the blockade according to the UN. 21% of patients asking for medical treatment in Israel due to lack of proper facilities in Gaza were denied, 27 people died in a year because Israel did not allow them medical treatment.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7545636.stm

Really Steve... Doesn't add up does it. Israel aren't helping them at all. They use disproportionate force, terror to frighten the Palestinian people as well as blockading thousands of everyday items like fruit juice for gods sake! How can you expect them to do as well as Israel when they are subjected to such hardships?

 

I suspect the jews were a bit pissed by this considering what the master race tried to do to them.

I suspect they may need a new PR company also.

Palestinian Arab nationalist and Muslim religious leader, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Mohammad Amin al-Husayni worked for the Nazi Germany as a propagandist and a recruiter of Muslim volunteers for the Waffen SS and other units.

On November 28, 1941, Hitler officially received al-Husayni in Berlin. Hitler made a declaration that after "...the last traces of the Jewish-Communist European hegemony had been obliterated... the German army would... gain the southern exit of Caucasus... the Führer would offer the Arab world his personal assurance that the hour of liberation had struck. Thereafter, Germany's only remaining objective in the region would be limited to the Vernichtung des... Judentums ['destruction of the Jewish element', sometimes taken to be a euphemism for 'annihilation of the Jews'] living under British protection in Arab lands.."

The Mufti spent the remainder of the war assisting with the formation of Muslim Waffen SS units in the Balkans and the formation of schools and training centers for imams and mullahs who would accompany the Muslim SS and Wehrmacht units. Beginning in 1943, al-Husayni was involved in the organization and recruitment of Bosnian Muslims into several divisions. The largest of which was the 13th "Handschar" division of 21,065 men.

In 1944, al-Husayni sponsored an unsuccessful chemical warfare assault on the Jewish community in Palestine. Five parachutists were supplied with maps of Tel Aviv, canisters of a German–manufactured "fine white powder," and instructions from the Mufti to dump chemicals into the Tel Aviv water system. District police commander Fayiz Bey Idrissi later recalled, "The laboratory report stated that each container held enough poison to kill 25,000 people, and there were at least ten containers.

Earl

 

.

Why is it that the UN says that 67% of Palestinians are food 'insecure'. Half of Gazans rely on credit to buy food.

Not sure what food insecure means.?

but looking at this list of allowed foodstuffs,I can't see tham going hungary.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/05_05_10_gazaimports.pdf

Or am I missing something.

If they are I would suggest that it has more to do with misappropriation of funds.?

obviously the jews are not going to let anything through that has the potential to be a weapon.

Earl

 

[Sacha]

Yes. You are missing 3,500 banned items. Including jam, fruit juice, canned fruit, cumin, ginger, chocolate, biscuits, sweets and fresh meat. Who are you to say they aren't going to starve, earl and steve, when officials working on the ground have stated that there is a shortage due to israeli blockade! Please tell me how they can make a bomb with jam earl??

Other banned items include a4 paper and writing implements. Steve's theories of Palestinian inferiority due to their lack of proper 'education' being the Palestinian's own fault right down the drain there yeah? Trying to insinuate that Palestinians teach their children wrong things in school... what do you expect? If England was being invaded, pillaged and starved by America you can bet what they'd teach us at schools.

Oh and don't forget building materials like concrete. They are unable to rebuild after the destruction caused by israel.

How can anybody in this country defend Israel when they are illegally blockading a indigenous population while stealing their land. THERE IS ONLY ONE WRONG PARTY HERE GUYS. WAKE UP.

 

Yes. You are missing 3,500 banned items. Including jam, fruit juice, canned fruit, cumin, ginger, chocolate, biscuits, sweets and fresh meat. Who are you to say they aren't going to starve earl and steve when officials working on the ground have stated that there is a shortage due to israeli blockade!

source please.?

all these items are not very good for you:

"jam, fruit juice, canned fruit, cumin, ginger, chocolate, biscuits, sweets"

so looks like the jews are looking out for there health .?

showing sources for your statements may help your cause.

Earl

 

[Sacha]

Cumin, ginger, canned fruit, fruit juice, jam, chocolate and fresh meat earl IS GOOD FOR YOU, especially cumin and ginger. Only biscuits and sweets are not good for you from that list you quoted of me, but they are still a source of energy which is good.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7545636.stm < look here for a very small list, scroll down and read the grey box on the right hand side where you can find the PDF you provided us with earl. And that is the source where you can read about UN saying that is too little food stuff allowed into Gaza. I did provide this link a few posts up by the way.

There actually is no no official list that I can find despite Israel saying that they will release one. The only way that people know what is banned is by asking for things to be let in, which the Israeli either allow or deny.

Chocolate and biscuits for example are allowed into Gaza as long as it is used by the UN and other international organisations only.

Here is the only list I can find. This is a partial list and there are thousands more banned items. They are apparently easing the blockade due to international pressure since the whole ship fiasco, but that still doesn't appease my anger.

http://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/HiddenMessages/ItemsGazaStrip060510.pdf

Note that industrial margarine and salt are banned which means that it is impossible in Gaza to produce large quantities of food stuffs for re-sell to the Palestinians.

 

[Gillie]

Can it be pointed out that the embargo on goods in to Gaza are those that could be used for contraband and was first imposed in 2007 by BOTH Isreal and Egypt - remind me again, who mostly inhabits Egypt??

As for the list, well the list you Sacha present us with is for commercial importers, humanitarian importers (ie the UN) have managed on a case by case basis to get all of their goods in to the area.

And as from May of this year, building materials have been allowed in and all civilian materials and goods are now allowed in.

 

[quikshop]

Chocolate and biscuits for example are allowed into Gaza as long as it is used by the UN and other international organisations only.

You discuss chocolate and biscuits when the real issue is a 1,500 year old war that still rages on today. There will never be peace in the middle east until either a) Israel is destroyed, unlikely, or b) the sponsors of Islamic "resistance" are destroyed, unlikely.

I'm sure you don't need any help with drawing your own conclusion.

 

[MASSEY]

To be fair, i actually think israel have a great mentality, they hate terrorists , what more could you want from a country like that.

 

[Esk247]

To be fair, i actually think israel have a great mentality, they hate terrorists , what more could you want from a country like that.

hating terrorists doesn't seem to get them very far though does it

 

To be fair, i actually think israel have a great mentality, they hate terrorists , what more could you want from a country like that.

Afraid a terrorist is defined by what side of the fence you are.

Earl

 

[Stephen Berry]

Afraid a terrorist is defined by what side of the fence you are.

absolutely - from the British perspective, the Israeli state was founded on the success of Israeli terrorism http://www.timripley.co.uk/terrorism/terrorism1.htm

in Nicosia, they celebrate the terrorism which ejected the British with a museum http://www.planetware.com/nicosia/national-struggle-museum-cy-nic-strugg.htm

unfortunately, the learning from history is that terrorism usually wins

 

unfortunately, the learning from history is that terrorism usually wins

I suspect you may mean force of arms .


Earl

 

[Sacha]

Can it be pointed out that the embargo on goods in to Gaza are those that could be used for contraband and was first imposed in 2007 by BOTH Isreal and Egypt - remind me again, who mostly inhabits Egypt??

As for the list, well the list you Sacha present us with is for commercial importers, humanitarian importers (ie the UN) have managed on a case by case basis to get all of their goods in to the area.

And as from May of this year, building materials have been allowed in and all civilian materials and goods are now allowed in.

Egypt is run by corrupt American puppets Gillie - the ruling class have no choice but to go ahead with whatever Israel says OR THEIR MILLIONS IN AID WILL BE STOPPED and they will be pushed out of control of their country. Are you really suggesting, Gillie, that the Muslin majority in Egypt actually agreed to the blockade? Stop deluding yourself my friend. The average egyptian is ready to raise arms once again against Israel, as are the average muslins across the world, man, woman and child.

As for your theory that humanitarian importers can somehow ignore the black-list and import whatever they want. WRONG. They are under the same restrictions as are everybody else - THE UN CAN ONLY IMPORT ITEMS SUCH AS CHOCOLATE FOR THEIR WORKERS' USE! NOT TO BE PASSED ONTO PALESTINIANS. Please get your facts straight.

Furthermore, where did you get the idea that from 'May building materials been allowed to enter Gaza'. THEY HAVE NOT. BUILDING MATERIALS ARE STILL BLACK-LISTED AND ISRAEL HAVE SAID EVEN WHEN THEY BEGIN EASING THE BLOCKADE BUILDING MATERIALS WILL STILL BE BLACKLISTED. source. THEY HAVE NOT STARTED EASING THE BLOCKADE YET BY THE WAY.

You discuss chocolate and biscuits when the real issue is a 1,500 year old war that still rages on today. There will never be peace in the middle east until either a) Israel is destroyed, unlikely, or b) the sponsors of Islamic "resistance" are destroyed, unlikely.

I'm sure you don't need any help with drawing your own conclusion.

I have talked about a lot more than chocolate and biscuits my friend - if you would care to read the whole topic and respond to the numerous posts I have made then I would be grateful to you, rather than nick-picking a single point in a single post from a thread dotted by posts on a wide range of issues. YOU are the person who is talking about chocolate and biscuits, I am talking about a much wider issue here.

I wanted to ask a simple question, IF ISRAEL ARE SO GOOD, LIKE STEVE IS SUGGESTING, WHY DO THEY BAN CHOCOLATE???? The only answer I have been given is because 'Israel doesn't want their fellow Palestinians to eat unhealthy food'. That answer is from a supposedly intelligent, open minded, fair, mature, experienced and successful man who thinks he has the right to lecture me on being racially biased whilst dishing out ridiculous (or sarcastic) answers to a very serious matter. (with respect to you of course earl, as well as you steve, this issue just really gets me blood boiling.)

IF THEY BAN CHOCOLATE, WHAT ELSE??

To be fair, i actually think israel have a great mentality, they hate terrorists , what more could you want from a country like that.

ISRAEL ARE THE TERRORISTS MAN. WAKE UP. Besides they don't have a good mentality, they are a military state and are brainwashed from an early age in schools to be be emotionally cold towards Palestinian plight. I watched a documentary about in on the BBC once.

They are being bombed because children watch their parents being beaten up by Israeli solders. Or because someone's entire family died in a bomb.

please answer me this MASSEY, if an invading army beat up your father for trying to break up a fight between an israeli and palestinian, when you were 12, and shot him, and then shot him again while he was on the ground defenceless so that now he cannot walk and could not support you or your brothers or sisters.... would you want revenge? when your school cannot be rebuilt, when you don't have enough food to eat, when they are building nice new houses in your country??? what would you do massey?

a little empathy please people. that's all I ask. If what was happening in Gaza was happening here we would be fighting to the death and proudly and rightfully so.

 

[Gillie]

The information I posted is fact, in that my source I would suggest is totally correct. You see, I got it from a UN worker presently based there ... whereas your information is purely based on websites and propganda that you are being fed ... WISE UP MAN - until you have first hand knowledge of it all, how on earth can you spout forth??

You question those who have been there and question those who have talked to people working there and you have what as your source of information?? Oh yes the Daily Mail and a documentary you once watched on the subject - guess that makes you expert enough to solve the whole situation!!!

 

[Cornish Steve]

Egypt is run by corrupt American puppets

Straight out of a propaganda playbook. You do yourself no favours by writing in such a way.

BUILDING MATERIALS ARE STILL BLACK-LISTED AND ISRAEL HAVE SAID EVEN WHEN THEY BEGIN EASING THE BLOCKADE BUILDING MATERIALS WILL STILL BE BLACKLISTED.

It's sad when locals suffer due to an embargo, but they are an effective tool against rogue governments. Embargoes exist against Iran, against North Korea, against Cuba, and against other nations. In this case, it's done because some people insist on firing rockets almost daily into Israel. It doesn't reach the news, but this is what some families face all the time. An embargo is meant to force some sense into government thinking so they restrain their own people from such behaviour. As long as rockets are fired, the embargo will remain.

ISRAEL ARE THE TERRORISTS MAN. WAKE UP. Besides they don't have a good mentality, they are a military state

They are the only democratic state in the region. If you were to view this topic fairly, surely you'd focus your ire on the despots and dictators of the region who oppress their own people, let alone attack other nations.

Or because someone's entire family died in a bomb.

Sadly, it's tit for tat. It's not excusable for either side, but it won't stop until both sides agree to stop. I've witnessed bombings, and they are very cruel. As you point out, innocent children are often the ones to suffer.

I do have sympathy for the many people who suffer, but I also have little patience for their leaders. They need leaders with a vision for the future, not leaders with a grudge to settle.

 

[Sacha]

It's sad when locals suffer due to an embargo, but they are an effective tool against rogue governments. Embargoes exist against Iran, against North Korea, against Cuba, and against other nations. In this case, it's done because some people insist on firing rockets almost daily into Israel. It doesn't reach the news, but this is what some families face all the time. An embargo is meant to force some sense into government thinking so they restrain their own people from such behaviour. As long as rockets are fired, the embargo will remain.

The blockade started when Hamas took control in Gaza. Hamas managed to take control because the Israelis refused to work fairly on peace, continued to build settlements illegally, and subjected the Palestinian people to suffering.

The Israeli's say that the blockade is to stop weapons, and for the past three years the blockade has black-listed thousands of everyday items including a4 paper and writing equipment to stop Hamas from attaining weapons. This has actually failed because Hamas has still been able to get hold of weapons for the past three years through the tunnel networks, whilst the people in Gaza have suffered.

The blockade doesn't work - weapons still get through. all it does it make the people suffer.

How is this fair Steve? How can you support a concept that doesn't work in the slightest, that actually goes against what it is supposedly trying to do. not only does it not stop weapons entering gaza, but it actually causes even more resentment, causes even more acts of violence to be waged.

They are the only democratic state in the region. If you were to view this topic fairly, surely you'd focus your ire on the despots and dictators of the region who oppress their own people, let alone attack other nations.

I am equally against most Middle Eastern regimes. In principle I have no issue with the state of Israel or its continued existence. What I have issue with is their subjugation of the Palestinian people for the past 50 years, the stealing of property and the countless international laws it has broken. Just because it is a democracy doesn't make it any better, in fact being a democracy only makes it worse.

Sadly, it's tit for tat. It's not excusable for either side, but it won't stop until both sides agree to stop. I've witnessed bombings, and they are very cruel. As you point out, innocent children are often the ones to suffer.

The point is Steve the Palestinians have agreed to stop on numerous occasions, they have had cease fires, they have agreed to start peace talks. The israelis are always the ones to end the cease fires, they are always the ones using inproportionate force, they are the ones in control of Palestinian territory and building illegal settlements on that land, continuing to impose an illogical blockade that only serves to suffer the people in Gaza.

What you don't seem to realise is that PEACE CAN HAPPEN, but the ISRAELIS don't actually want peace. They don't want to see two states, they don't want to share Jerusalem. They are opposed to a two state solution, the only solution possible. They are opposed to Jerusalem being the capital of the new Palestinian state. They are hurriedly building as many settlements as possible to lay claim on that land when they cannot hold off the two state solution any longer. They want to lay claim to all the land inside the wall they have built (which extends deep into Palestinian territory). These are all acknowledged facts steve. Why do you think so many people are angry against Israel, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE STOPPING THE PEACE GOING FORWARD.

PLEASE ANSWER THE BOLD STEVE.

I do have sympathy for the many people who suffer, but I also have little patience for their leaders. They need leaders with a vision for the future, not leaders with a grudge to settle.

The problem with the leaders is on both sides, I agree. on the palestinian side because of the suffering causing the desirability of revengeful government rhetoric. and on the Israeli side because of the war-mongering spirit of the Israelis (from their eduction system), and their zionist congress, stopping any appeasing fair leaders being able to actually help the situation.

 

[Sacha]

The information I posted is fact, in that my source I would suggest is totally correct. You see, I got it from a UN worker presently based there ... whereas your information is purely based on websites and propganda that you are being fed ... WISE UP MAN - until you have first hand knowledge of it all, how on earth can you spout forth??

You question those who have been there and question those who have talked to people working there and you have what as your source of information?? Oh yes the Daily Mail and a documentary you once watched on the subject - guess that makes you expert enough to solve the whole situation!!!

Well Gillie, the thing is I don't believe you. Why don't you ask your 'contact' to back up what he is saying with evidence. do you really think that international reporters know less than your mate who works for the un in palestine? The information you posted is heresy and rumour. that is the fact gillie.

example: egypt agreed to blockade. well 96% of egyptians see israel as a threat.
example: concrete has been allowed in gaza since may. that's why the israelis themselves said that the ships they attacked had illegal concrete on it??
example: un can do what it wants in gaza. "Israel must end Gaza blockade, evictions, alleged abuse of young Palestinians says un (from un.org)

i think your mate needs to wise up man.

 

[Sacha]

even if what you say is true that the un can get whatever it wants into the country (which again i stress is untrue), the Un themselves say that only a fraction of the goods needed in gaza gets through.

here's a link of someone writing from gaza city on july 5th about the blockade and how it has changed recently:

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/07/gaza_blockade_u.html

hmmm... let me think. who do i believe. a guy who said his friend works in gaza. or the guy who posted this, and the un, and the world media... hmmm, yeah i really better wise up.

 

I think this thread shows just how damaging religious beliefs can be in the world.

Is it a wonder that more people have been slayed in the name of religion than any other single cause.?

Having an organisation with these beliefs on ones doorstep would I suspect make most a little nervous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#The_Hamas_Charter_.281988.29

But no matter as stated its just tit for tat very similar to a school playground ,but unfortunately with dire consequences for the participants.

Earl

 

[Esk247]

well it is tit for tat really isn't it.

religion creates a divide instead of pulling people together. i swear it was only created/developed as a way of control and to benefit those in power as it seems to offer everyone else nothing but trouble. From causing offence to creating wars.

the same as territorial borders really, most of them are fake (apart from the obvious oceans and seas). Iraqi borders were practically drawn up on the back of an envelope and yet that creates a massive headache in itself.

 

[Sacha]

I think this thread shows just how damaging religious beliefs can be in the world.

Is it a wonder that more people have been slayed in the name of religion than any other single cause.?

Having an organisation with these beliefs on ones doorstep would I suspect make most a little nervous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#The_Hamas_Charter_.281988.29

But no matter as stated its just tit for tat very similar to a school playground ,but unfortunately with dire consequences for the participants.

Earl

Earl this is the second time you have provided an article debasing the Muslims. You are walking on thin ice my friend and revealing, I think, your true feelings on the matter.

The koran says a lot of bad things, just like the Bible and the Torah does. And just like the Bible and Torah it says a lot of good things, like for example how Christians and Jews will go to heaven, how they also follow the true religion, how Muslins should live in peace and trade and work with Christians and Jews.

Why don't you actually read the Koran before debasing it?

If you are trying to demonstrate how my views that the Israelis are subjugating the Palestinians are in any way based upon my religious beliefs, well they're not. I'm not a muslim.

Oh and before you spew any more crap about the Muslim religion, why don't you approach the topic with a fair an open mind. LIKE SAYING THAT MUSLINS HELPED HITLER WHEN IN FACT MANY MORE MUSLINS FOUGHT AGAINST HITLER THAN FOUGHT FOR HIM.

You my friend are racially biased and unlike you calling me a racist, I think you have clearly demonstrated yourself sufficiently to tag that title on you.

Why is it that nobody, nobody is able to challenge me on all my points, instead you linger on one or two abstract ideas without addressing anything I have said. Most of you people are ignoring the truth of the situation, and trying to come to a 'fair' conclusion by alluding that the Israelis have done no more harm than the Palestinians. IT ISN'T TRUE. THE ISRAELIS USE INPROPORTIONATE FORCE AGAINST THE PALESTINIANS, AS WELL AS A WHOLE RANGE OF ILLEGAL MILITARY MEASURES THAT WE SHOULD NOT BE SUPPORTING.

 

[Sacha]

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/07/gaza_blockade_u.html

July 5, 2010

Gaza Blockade Update

Many thanks to the anonymous commenter who posted this in response to my plea for information on the current state of the Gaza Blockade. They didn't post a link, so it is reproduced here in full.

As I suspected, there has been no real change in the Israeli strangulation of Gaza.

By Vittorio Arrigoni, Gaza City, Gaza July 4, 2010
Ketchup, mayonnaise, thread and needles are the items that were included last week by Israel on the list of those few goods now allowed into Gaza. Farming tools, spare parts for cars, toys and make-up were added to the list on Tuesday, items we watched being carried into the Strip loaded onto 130 trucks.
Taking into account the decision of the Israeli government to "loosen" the siege of Gaza by allowing the entry of more goods, B'Tselem, the Israeli organisation for human rights commented: "This is a first, tiny step towards the right direction, the direction which'll bring Israeli policy in line with its obligations."
A veritable microscopic step, considering that before the start of the siege, more than ten thousand trucks a month would drive through the Karni pass alone, and even then, these deliveries were miles away from the 500 truckfuls of goods a day (15,000 trucks a month), the minimum decreed by the United Nations to cover the basic needs of one and a half million people.
According to some Palestinian political analysts, this step might even be counterproductive, because it proposes to attempt to legitimise the siege. This is a siege that is a form of collective punishment against a civilian population. As such, it violates Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, and is considered illegal by all major human rights organisations, whether governmental or otherwise, as Amnesty International and the International Red Cross have recently decreed.
Cement, iron and any other building material continues to be banned from the Strip, so much so that according to the UN, one year after the Cast Lead bombings, 75% of the damaged buildings still gape open among the rubble.
According to Christopher Gunness, spokesman for the UNRWA (UN Agency for Palestinian refugees), Israel's new policy is an attempt to throw smoke into the eyes of the international community and hide its blatant violation of international law: "The Israeli strategy is that of getting the world to talk about a random bag of cement being let in on one side, and a sponsored project on another. What we really need is complete and free access through all the passes."
All eyes are now turned towards the mirage of the opened Israeli passes. Yet, forgetting to take note of the Egyptian border is a mistake. Rafah continues to remain semi-open, or better still…semi-closed. The Egyptian border authorities refuse to let any type of goods through, including tons of food supplies and medicine collected during the last weeks by the union of Cairo chemists. The bullies of the infamous Egyptian Mubarak, renowned for their rough treatment of Palestinian civilians, including women, children and sick people, have sent back hundreds of travellers with regular passports and visas over the past few weeks.
For internationals in Egypt who plan to come and report on what they see, or support the population of Gaza in any way, entering "the Rafah Pass" remains forbidding. John, a freelance journalist who accompanied us from the International Solidarity Movement to report on the daily harrassment that the farmers face from Israeli snipers at the border, eventually came in through the tunnels when he had grown tired of waiting for a pass that never came at Al Arish.
Italian state television is trying to put through the message that the siege has been loosened as an act of generosity on the part of the Israeli government, but the reality is indeed very different. The siege itself needs to be totally lifted, because the people here certainly don't need potato chips or toothpicks. They need cement, iron, medicine, medical supplies and all the essentials coming in the way they would normally come in…through import and export. Only that means will help boost the economy and make Gaza self-sufficient, besides opening the borders to make it possible for anyone to come into or leave this prison.
All that we have before our eyes these days is the artificial image of a tragic situation, made up to seem like an improvement after the cosmetic surgery of Israeli and Egyptian propaganda. Amid these far-reaching echoes of propaganda, Tony Blair's congratulations to Israel for the alleged "loosening" of its blockade comes across as a strident contradition. Behind the smile of Blair, one the of puppet masters of the Quartet (USA, EU, Russia and UN) who for years has produced nothing but useless press releases, is all the rot of the stone caryatids jointly holding up the current Iraqi genocide, as well as the political laxity of European governments in the face of the Palestinian tragedy.
I'm keen to remind Tony Blair that if two extra bags of flour enter the besieged Strip, it certainly isn't thanks to his work within the castrated quartet, or any other institution in charge of resolving the Israeli occupation of Palestine. It's actually thanks to the sacrifices over many years of thousands of ordinary civilians throughout the world committed to the rights of Palestinians. It's an effort that has culminated in the murder of nine Turkish activists on the Mavi Marmara, much the same way as before them, Tom Hurndall and Rachel Corrie gave their lives for the good of Gaza.
On the eve of the second Gulf war, the New York Times coined the phrase "second world power", to define the global pacifist movement that filled thousands of squares around the world. These civilians were protesting against a war "that never before in history had been met with as much blatant hostility." Well, that second world power has now joined us on the field and is siding with the Palestinians: it is now Israel that's under siege.
Stay human.
Vittorio Arrigoni from Gaza city
(translated by Daniela Filippin)

i believe this guy steve and gillie, not the crap you two have heard

 

[Dawg]

You might believe Craig Murray; some people believe that there are fairies at the bottom of their gardens...to many he is wildly partisan, and even few mints short of a full roll.

You also cite the UN as a credible organization. Is this the same UN that has Zimbabwe on the UN Sustainable Development body? The same UN that had senior officials taking bribes from Saddam's regime in the Oil for Food program?

In what way is Earl "walking on thin ice"? Is something going to happen to him for expressing an opinion? Is this a threat?

Just asking.

 

Earl this is the second time you have provided an article debasing the Muslims. You are walking on thin ice my friend and revealing, I think, your true feelings on the matter.

Well my new best friend contrary to what you may believe I have the greatest sympathy with the people of Gazza and the hell hole they live in.

But do realise they like many nations on earth are being manipulated by a few psychopaths intent on there own power mad designs.

As for being racist .?:|

Some of my best friends are White.

Earl

 

[Gord]

But do realise they like many nations on earth are being manipulated by a few psychopaths intent on there own power mad designs

A truth which applies to both sides, the problem here is that it is a geopolitical issue where the main power brokers have nothing to gain from a resolution.
Religion has very little to do with it.

 

A truth which applies to both sides, the problem here is that it is a geopolitical issue where the main power brokers have nothing to gain from a resolution.
Religion has very little to do with it.

On the contrary as a tool for manipulating the troops it is very effective..

Earl

 

[Sacha]

In what way is Earl "walking on thin ice"? Is something going to happen to him for expressing an opinion? Is this a threat?

Just asking.

Yes, it is a threat. My respect towards him will go if he continues on trying to debase the muslim religion for no apparent reason. For example trying to say that Israelis are mad at Muslims for helping Hitler (when many more Muslims fought against him than helped him), and by nit-picking quotes from the Koran whilst ignoring a whole trove of pro-Jewish verses. A fair threat I think.

 

[Sacha]

You might believe Craig Murray; some people believe that there are fairies at the bottom of their gardens...to many he is wildly partisan, and even few mints short of a full roll.

Well what I believe is that concrete is still banned (contrary to what Gillie is asserting).

That the UN are not allowed to take whatever they want into the territory for Palestinian use (contrary to what Gillie asserted).

That the egyptian people are not supportive of the internationally illegal blockade on gaza (contrary to what gillie has asserted).

please prove me wrong on any of these three points that Gillie made and then I will believe Gillie's alleged reliable source (cough, who works for the UN, cough an organisation we shouldn't be believing according to you, yes?)

 

[Sacha]

Sorry to triple post here guys, but I really do think Gillie has some answering to do, I mean his facts just simply don't add up. Why does his friend say completely differently to what his supposed colleagues are saying?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007-present_blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip

According to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs at various times, Israel has blocked goods including wheelchairs, dry food items, and crayons, stationary, soccer balls, and musical instruments.[75][76][77] International aid group Mercy Corps said it was blocked from sending 90 tons of macaroni and other foodstuffs. After international pressure, Israeli authorities said that they were giving the shipment a green light.[41] Israel was also reported to have prevented aid groups from sending in other items, such as paper, crayons,[citation needed] tomato paste and lentils.[78] Because of an Israeli ban on the importation of construction materials (such as cement and steel) for fear of Hamas using them to build bunkers and fortified positions from which to shell villages in Israel, the UN Relief and Works Agency built at least one mud brick home, and planned to build up to 120.[79] Aid agencies[who?] say that food waits on trucks and in warehouses, and many basic items are rejected by Israel as "luxuries" or are turned down for unexplained reasons[citation needed]. Tin cans are banned because the tin might be melted down and used to build weaponry or structures by Hamas, making it hard for Gazan farmers to preserve their vegetables.[80]

In January, 2010, the Israeli group Gisha took Israeli authorities to court, forcing them to reveal which goods were permitted and which goods weren't. The Israeli government replied that canned fruit, fruit juices and chocolate are blocked, while at the same time canned meat, canned tuna, mineral water, sesame paste, tea and coffee are allowed into the Gaza Strip.[81]

According to the Failing Gaza after one year report by Amnesty International and other organisations cement, glass, steel, bitumen, wood, paint, doors, plastic pipes, metal pipes, metal reinforcement rods, aggregate, generators, high voltage cables and wooden telegraph poles are "high priority reconstruction materials currently with no or highly limited entry into Gaza through official crossings." [82] A UN report by Kevin M. Cahill called the restrictions "Draconian", and said that reconstruction is halted because Israel does not permit the importation of steel, cement or glass, among other building materials, and has restricted importation of lentils, pasta, tomato paste and juice, as well as batteries for hearing aids for deaf children. He said that despite the restrictions UNRWA has been able to provide a basic food supply to over a million refugees in the Gaza Strip. He added that he "visited a food station where hundreds of displaced persons waited to collect their meager staples of rice, sugar, lentils and cooking oil. While this program may save people from starvation, it is a diet that does not prevent the highest level of anemia in the region, with alarming rates of childhood stunting due to inadequate nutrition." [83]

 

[Dawg]

Well what I believe is that concrete is still banned (contrary to what Gillie is asserting).

That the UN are not allowed to take whatever they want into the territory for Palestinian use (contrary to what Gillie asserted).

That the egyptian people are not supportive of the internationally illegal blockade on gaza (contrary to what gillie has asserted).

please prove me wrong on any of these three points that Gillie made and then I will believe Gillie's alleged reliable source (cough, who works for the UN, cough an organisation we shouldn't be believing according to you, yes?)

Gillie can look after herself. I was addressing your comments.
You have a simplistic, partisan view on something that is vastly complex, and I was pointing out that the authorities you seem to rely upon are not necessarily fonts of unerring knowledge.
You can take that as you want. A thread like this dribbles on in pointless acrimony for as long as it takes for people to get bored with obsessive protagonists, so have fun disputing.

BTW:The Palestinians voted for Hamas, no? Hamas has the complete destruction of Israel written into it's charter, no? And you want the Israelis to say, "Hey! Here's a high protein McFalafelkebab. Build yourself up before you come a killin'"?

 

[Gillie]

Yep me is not a man thanks Sacha!!

Go read the link you posted up and in it, you will see that Egypt did close borders and ban items passing through ....

As for the rest, I don't give a rats pertootie if you believe me when I say I have spoken to someone who is at present there - I mean being Jewish and connected with the area, why should I know someone there??

Anyhow, I will leave you to your simplistic take on a very difficult situation and of course when we have taken on board all of your Daily Mail and BBC facts, of course we will see that you are right ...

I will now bow out at this whole thread leaves a horrid taste in my mouth and to my mind, is unwarranted!

 

[Dawg]

Yes, it is a threat. My respect towards him will go if he continues on trying to debase the muslim religion for no apparent reason. For example trying to say that Israelis are mad at Muslims for helping Hitler (when many more Muslims fought against him than helped him), and by nit-picking quotes from the Koran whilst ignoring a whole trove of pro-Jewish verses. A fair threat I think.

All religions should be debased, mocked, ridiculed, lampooned, disparaged, derided and satirised whenever possible.
Only a modicum of good manners should prevent it being compulsory.

(My antithiest voodoo juju mojo is stronger than your religious voodoo juju mojo...)

 

[directmarketingadvice]

Yes, it is a threat. My respect towards him will go

Oh, no.

D'ya hear that Earl? There's a lot at stake here.

I have to say that I find the... what phrase will I choose?... let's just say "blinkered psychosis"... from some people on either side of this thread is something I find deeply disturbing.

So, if respect of other forum members is such a big deal, I think there was some seriously unwise posting.

As Dawg says, it's a complicated matter. No doubt the Palestinians are being treated terribly, but at the same time, the Jews have to live somewhere and any pro-Palestinian argument needs to address this fact.

(Unless, of course, the person thinks Jews don't have a right to exist.)

Steve

 

[Sacha]

Thanks again for ignoring a whole trove of points Steve. You really do bog my mind. The Israelis have somewhere to live - despite this (as I have stated) they are expanding into illegally occupied territory as we speak. As for earl, it's nice to know as a moderator on these forums you think it's ok to debase a religion, yup fantastic. No wonder so many stuck-up individuals seem to just run a mock on these forums with admins like yourself (no offence of course).

As for Gillie - yeah, and I'm the one here who's basing my facts from unreliable sources (like the BBC and UN, I mean come on woman, are you SERIOUS??). I'm sorry but Jews who live in Israel (erm, what happened to the UN worker you quoted) aren't reliable sources on the Palestinian plight. Oh and yeah and thanks for not being able to actually back up a single thing you said with proof, nice how you managed to portray it like you don't think it's necessary to prove what you said.

Any who I think I shall take leave from this topic it's very clear now that most of the people in this thread pick and choose what they want to believe, ignore facts and cannot seem to take part in a reasoned debate without resorting to racist remarks and turning a blind eye to countless posts of points.

My final words on this matter are that the Israelis control a large swathe of land illegally, that they have built a wall to both enclose an ethnic race as well as claim more land, they continue to build new settlements illegally, and they continue to blockade the people in Gaza against the law. As before I very much doubt any of you will address any of these points.

Usually I enjoy partaking in debates but really, all you guys have done is either offend me or ignore me so I must say in this case, I haven't enjoyed it at all. But thanks anyway for your time and listening (when you bothered to do so).

 

No doubt the Palestinians are being treated terribly, but at the same time, the Jews have to live somewhere and any pro-Palestinian argument needs to address this fact.

Therein lies the most important factor in this 'debate'...... once both sides can 'meet' and compromise, then and only then can any solution be sought.

I still disagree with the Israeli's being 'the greatest army in the world'.... I think they are more the best resourced per head just. I reckon the British Army is still amongst the 'greatest', albeit very under-resourced.

How do you judge what makes an army 'the greatest', is it winning wars/battles, or is it their general all-round performance, or is it based upon how many people they can kill? Not sure 'greatest' is the best description

 

....and who made Earl an admin..... (as per our slightly bigoted friends post above).... that's just mental

 

[directmarketingadvice]

Thanks again for ignoring a whole trove of points Steve. You really do bog my mind. The Israelis have somewhere to live - despite this (as I have stated) they are expanding into illegally occupied territory as we speak.

This is part of the stupidity/naivity/dishonesty of the pro-Palestinian argument.

The Israel-palestine conflict isn't a conflict revolving around the 1967 borders. And, if Israel agreed to go back to those borders, the conflict wouldn't disappear.

It's not a step towards peace, instead, the Palestinians would see it as a step towards removing Israel altogether.

Unsurprisingly, the Israelis aren't falling for it.

Steve