Copywriters are magicians

  • Thread starter Thread starter -
  • Start date Start date
Oh for FS Steve picking on a few examples is not typical of main stream adds.

Why the hell do you think the guy gets the girl if he buys a particular car or product.

Or wash your barnet with xy shampoo and leave Tracy fiddlesticks sitting on her lonesome.

Pretty naive for a marketing guy.

Earl
 
Upvote 0
Some people seem to think that copy is supposed to make products and services look better than they actually are. People seem to think that copy is designed to be deceptive, and persuade someone to buy something they don't really want.

This couldn't be further from the truth. Good copy is there to make a product and service seem as it is - simple as that. Visitors cannot be expected to fully understand a products' benefits and features without the information there. Good copy explains all of this, and is written in a way which makes it compelling to read.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheWordWell
Upvote 0
Colin I have been involved in price wars on the internet for many years and can assure you that for commonly procured products price is the major factor shown by our customer feedback to be the major factor why they chose us,followed by customer service and speed of delivery.

This is for a very varied range of different popular products ranging in price from a few pounds to many thousands.

In the areas where we have a more niche market ,then price is not always a factor.

Earl

Earl, I understand of course that a low price is more critical to success in some markets than others.

However, are you saying that conversion on your sites could only be increased by lower prices ... and not merely by better copy and design?

Colin Parker

PS. Whilst I don't agree with you that the purpose of advertising is to make people feel 'inadequate' I know where you are coming from. I believe advertising is there to 'manipulate the emotions' of your potential customer. That ability to manipulate emotions is what really separates copywriters (and especially the truly great ones) from mere scribblers.

Colin Parker
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0
Earl, I understand of course that a low price is more critical to success in some markets than others.

However, are you saying that conversion on your sites could only be increased by lower prices ... and not merely by better copy and design?
Exactly what I was thinking. Get the price right then tweak the copy to get more of the yes-maybes and perhaps even turn some of the no-maybes.

I'm still not conviced that price is the great driver. A client was told by a customer to increase the price of his printing services - he was seen as too cheap and therefore of poor quality. Instead of trying to compete on price he now offers a superior service and is taking customers away from his nearest competitors.

(Last thing I brought online wasn't the cheapest - it was the availablilty, delivery and trust in the vendor that helped me to decide).
 
Upvote 0
Oh for FS Steve picking on a few examples is not typical of main stream adds.

So, "compare the Meerkat", that's about "inadequacy", is it?

Or the ad where, when people spill things, an Elephant appears?

Or the out-of-tune 118 274 ad?

Or the Mr T "get some nuts" ads?

Of course, none of those are in the "main stream"...

Pretty naive for a marketing guy.

Your taking a handful of ads and generalising to all ads. But, as I've just shown, it's simply not the case.

Maybe you should spend less time listening to theories and more time with your eyes open.

Steve
 
Upvote 0
Do you really think there eloquent words makes you buy a product.

Absolutely I do. Although I wouldnt necessarily say eloquent words is the key, most copywriters use specific words which are simple and most importantly write from the prospects point of view. Of course it isn't just the words, its typically a combination of good copy, a compelling offer, scarcity tactics (order now only 34 sets remaining etc.) risk reversal (money back) etc.

I believe that price is what gets the sale in nearly all cases.

Earl

I disagree, I have seen master copywriters sell very high price ticket items just from a sales letter, 3k upwards, the bottom line is that takes skill, you have to draw your prospect in, create compelling reasons, build credibility around the offer to the point where the price becomes less important as your prospect starts to think of what they are missing out on if they don't buy.

If a prospect thinks the price is too high then it *could* be because the copy hasn't convinced them of the value of the proposition.

What I love about copywriting (When I do it which isnt often enough) is that it works for any media, and I can get away from this interwebby thing that everyone is obsessed with and get back pen, paper, good old letters and classified ads.

Thats my take on it!

Gary
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheWordWell
Upvote 0
I believe advertising is there to 'manipulate the emotions' of your potential customer. That ability to manipulate emotions is what really separates copywriters (and especially the truly great ones) from mere scribblers.

Some copy will deliberately make the reader feel inadequate, or worried, or anguished, or on the other hand imbue a sense of longing, or desire, or aspiration to name but just a very few emotional responses.

The emotion you seek to motivate depends on whether you are selling a ***** enlarger or attire for the bigger man ... for example!

Colin Parker
 
  • Like
Reactions: QVA - Emma
Upvote 0
Some copy will deliberately make the reader feel inadequate

True, but that's a very small percentage.

And, in the times it's done competently, it's usually using "problem-agitate-solution" - i.e. taking an existing sense of inadequacy, emphasising it and offering a solution.

However, to assume that "all advertising" or "most" is focused on that - which seems to be Earl's claim - is just nonsense.

There's far more advertising that's about fulfilling desire (e.g. holiday ads), solving simple problems (Cillit Bang), saving money (Compare the market) etc.

Steve
 
Upvote 0
However, are you saying that conversion on your sites could only be increased by lower prices ... and not merely by better copy and design?

Colin Parker

No good copy is better than bad copy,but don't hold a candle to 2 for the price of 1.:)

Earl
 
Upvote 0
PS. Whilst I don't agree with you that the purpose of advertising is to make people feel 'inadequate' I know where you are coming from. I believe advertising is there to 'manipulate the emotions' of your potential customer. That ability to manipulate emotions is what really separates copywriters (and especially the truly great ones) from mere scribblers.

Colin Parker

I agree that the purpose of advertising is not to make people feel inadequate,but it would seem to be a major principle for advertisers in recent times.

Hence kids killing each other for there Nike trainers e.t.c.

A status driven culture.?

Earl
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
No good copy is better than bad copy,but don't hold a candle to 2 for the price of 1.:)
But you actually have to say the words '2 for 1' - that in itself is marketing copy (albeit a very short piece).
 
Upvote 0
I still come back to the overriding factor ... and that is TESTING.

'People buy on emotions and justify with logic' is a key element of understanding buying physchology.

Testing copy and pictures to motivate different emotions and monitoring how they affect conversion is to me one of the factors that differentiates true direct marketers and copywriters from the scribblers.

This thread could run longer than the Mousetrap ....

Colin Parker
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheWordWell
Upvote 0
Sorry steve, dont mean to correct you but main rule of marketing is to CREATE desire, not fulfil it.

Marketing can create desire and fulfill desire.

It can satisfy a want or create a need.

There is only one simple rule by which marketing is judged ... does it create response. PERIOD ... IMO.

Colin Parker
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ali-v-8
Upvote 0
First, may I say I am staggered by your comments Earl. I wonder if you are just stirring the pot to get a reaction?

I'll start with a story, rather than an image. I recently re-wrote a website for someone who knows their business inside out. He should have been able to write about it, shouldn't he? Apart from not having the time, he had no idea how to write in a concise, punchy way. His site wasn't performing either and he just couldn't get his message across. At that stage, it was nothing to do with price whatsoever!

I took on the challenge, did research, tested some keywords and wrote his site. The result? He was not only delighted with the website but it is now on the first page of Google , enquiries have gone up by 60% and business has increased. It wasn't magic - it was all about good writing, positioning, SEO and understanding the market.

I don't claim to be a SEO expert, as my role is diverse. A copywriter is so much more than a label. Copywriters provide all sorts of services, from creative concept work and organising email campaigns, to article marketing and writing for print.

Copywriters help businesses to attract attention. Let's face it: you have to create 'desire' before any sales can take place. (The AIDA principle: Attention - Interest - Desire - Action) Once that's happened, the price issue comes into play. There is a lot of psychology involved in the buying process. It's all about the emotions... If copy doesn't meet emotional needs, the product/service won't sell as well. Therefore, a copywriter's role is to shape copy to suit the audience's emotional needs. Feel free to read my blog post about psychology: http://thewordwell.co.uk/wordpress/copywriting/use-psychology-to-communicate-with-your-customers

It's not just about how something looks or having a short description to 'sell' the product. A product - whatever it is - has to tick several boxes in the prospect's mind. If you just have a picture and a brief description, you run the risk of ignoring the prospect's needs. Copy that is focused 'on' the reader, and builds rapport - is likely to have more impact than copy which focuses on the product itself.

It's not about 'eloquent' words Earl. It's about words which the target audience will respond to. More often than not, simple, direct words are more effective than long, fancy ones. It's not 'what' you say - it's 'how' you say it. In copy I write, I build value and create trust. Clever techniques are used to get a response: a sale! That's not just about writing - that's about understanding the selling process.

One final point. I quoted a website job for someone starting a new business. In the end, the person decided to write the web copy himself. Once the website was live, I was staggered to see the website not only full of spelling/grammar errors, but much of it is written in a negative way. For me, it's such as shame as I know I could have helped this guy to make a go of his new venture. If copy is a voice-piece for his business, it doesn't come across as professional. To me, that's a wasted opportunity.

Everyone has their value, Earl. To pick holes in other peoples' professions and livelihood is unfair. As for saying 'Copywriters think the general public are stupid and gullible' is an inflammatory statement, which reveals far more about you than the topic in discussion.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
First, may I say I am staggered by your comments Earl. I wonder if you are just stirring the pot to get a reaction?

I’ll start with a story, rather than an image. I recently re-wrote a website for someone who knows their business inside out. He should have been able to write about it, shouldn’t he? Apart from not having the time, he had no idea how to write in a concise, punchy way. His site wasn’t performing either and he just couldn’t get his message across. At that stage, it was nothing to do with price whatsoever!

I took on the challenge, did research, tested some keywords and wrote his site. The result? He was not only delighted with the website but it is now on the first page of Google , enquiries have gone up by 60% and business has increased. It wasn’t magic - it was all about good writing, positioning, SEO and understanding the market.

I don’t claim to be a SEO expert, as my role is diverse. A copywriter is so much more than a label. Copywriters provide all sorts of services, from creative concept work and organising email campaigns, to article marketing and writing for print.

Copywriters help businesses to attract attention. Let’s face it: you have to create ‘desire’ before any sales can take place. (The AIDA principle: Attention - Interest - Desire - Action) Once that’s happened, the price issue comes into play. There is a lot of psychology involved in the buying process. It’s all about the emotions... If copy doesn’t meet emotional needs, the product/service won’t sell as well. Therefore, a copywriter’s role is to shape copy to suit the audience’s emotional needs. Feel free to read my blog post about psychology: http://thewordwell.co.uk/wordpress/copywriting/use-psychology-to-communicate-with-your-customers

It’s not just about how something looks or having a short description to ‘sell’ the product. A product - whatever it is - has to tick several boxes in the prospect’s mind. If you just have a picture and a brief description, you run the risk of ignoring the prospect’s needs. Copy that is focused ‘on’ the reader, and builds rapport - is likely to have more impact than copy which focuses on the product itself.

It’s not about ‘eloquent’ words Earl. It’s about words which the target audience will respond to. More often than not, simple, direct words are more effective than long, fancy ones. It’s not ‘what’ you say - it’s ‘how’ you say it. In copy I write, I build value and create trust. Clever techniques are used to get a response: a sale! That’s not just about writing - that’s about understanding the selling process.

One final point. I quoted a website job for someone starting a new business. In the end, the person decided to write the web copy himself. Once the website was live, I was staggered to see the website not only full of spelling/grammar errors, but much of it is written in a negative way. For me, it’s such as shame as I know I could have helped this guy to make a go of his new venture. If copy is a voice-piece for his business, it doesn’t come across as professional. To me, that’s a wasted opportunity.

Everyone has their value, Earl. To pick holes in other peoples’ professions and livelihood is unfair. As for saying ‘Copywriters think the general public are stupid and gullible’ is an inflammatory statement, which reveals far more about you than the topic in discussion.

Great post.:)

Stirring the pot would I.:eek:

Earl
 
Upvote 0
Hi Earl!
it's a great question you pose.

hmmm how to answer this... it can be done in so many ways because your questions demands a full response but It's more of a phone call I think.

Anyway.

1)
There are 2 websites that are both visible to you.
Both have the same product
both at the same price
People tend to buy from the site they feel more comfortable with.

2) millions of sites are not for e-commerce
therefore price isn't the issue - It could be lead generation
The company wants the phone to ring.
So copy is vital


3) there is just so much more
 
Upvote 0
a relevant point here:| I once asked a pro copywriter to give me a taster of what they could do with some text of my site and the results were laughable because they didnt "get" the type of business I was in nor the expectations or perceptions that potential clients had of it.

Spot on - there's no way any copywriter knows more about my business than I do - and that's why copywriting is over rated like it is.

Same applies to PPC advert writers - such 'professionals' don't and can't have the understanding of the products like the client has. And that knowledge is critical when doing any sales/promotion type work.

As good at sales as I am, there's no way I could suddenly begin selling insurance services, just bcos I'm good at speaking and have done it since birth!

The only external services I buy in, are where I don't have the knowledge eg: a specialty like Public relations, or Accountancy etc - its just knowledge I don't have. I think anyone can write good sales copy that works, perhaps not brilliant, but pretty good stuff - certainly enough to make some steady sales, which once got, will lead onto other things.

The ability to use what you have and get maximum advantage from that is worth more than any copywriting.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0
Spot on - there's no way any copywriter knows more about my business than I do - and that's why copywriting is over rated like it is.

Same applies to PPC advert writers - such 'professionals' don't and can't have the understanding of the products like the client has. And that knowledge is critical when doing any sales/promotion type work.

As good at sales as I am, there's no way I could suddenly begin selling insurance services, just bcos I'm good at speaking and have done it since birth!

.

Don't you believe it,your business is hardly rocket science nor is insurance.

I am sure a reasonably intelligent person would grasp the whole concept in a very short time.

A copywriters skill comes from presenting your product in a must have manor,which general means they have a deep understanding of what motivates people to say "yes".:)

Earl
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheWordWell
Upvote 0
Spot on - there's no way any copywriter knows more about my business than I do

It's not the copywriter's job to know more about your buisiness than you. It's his/her job to write better copy.

- Part of the reason they can write better copy is (should be) better technique.

- Another part is them knowing what works.

(I'm going to post something soon about a magazine that had 24 ads and every single one of those ads had serious mistakes).

- And, thirdly, they have an outside perspective on the business. Most business owners are far too close to what they're doing to see things from a prospect's perspective.

Now, some business owners have good copywriting technique and an objective sense of what they're offering and how it compares to the alternatives in the market. But, most don't. Which is why most D-I-Y copy is weak.

Steve
 
Upvote 0
Don't you believe it,your business is hardly rocket science nor is insurance.


Like a lamb to slaughter ;) Many have tried, and many will fail - without that domain knowledge.
 
Upvote 0
- And, thirdly, they have an outside perspective on the business. Most business owners are far too close to what they're doing to see things from a prospect's perspective.

That is a killer when business owners write copy. The simple fact is, you will find your own products and services more interesting than total strangers will. You have passion and a deep interest in what you're selling, but the strangers don't have it at all (yet).

There are a number of issues when this happens:

1). You may focus on benefits you like, but others aren't interested in
2). You may write copy which you personally find enjoyable and interesting to read, but others don't

So, a good copywriter should be impartial, unbiased and fully understand how the prospect will see the copy.

There's a test I do to help me do this; I'll post it up soon.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: sirearl
Upvote 0
Most business owners are far too close to what they're doing to see things from a prospect's perspective.

It depends on the individual/team involved in the business. Some general business skills can be picked up fairly quickly eg: Basic copywriting, email sales, planning skills, telesales, basic adwords, letter writing etc - doesn't mean a biz will fail bcos its owner can't handle copywriting to Journalist standard.

People buy for different reasons, er, that is to say that some elements act as the trigger to a sale. For instance, I think most will buy once trust is there, while some aren't bothered about trust so much - some just want information at that point in the relationship.

Other sales triggers might be:

A discount
Sales pitch
Special Offer
Size of the company

Not necessarily about the copy - heck, the product often sells itself without any pushing. Eg: a weblink for £20. An adwords advert etc etc
 
Upvote 0
No good copy is better than bad copy,but don't hold a candle to 2 for the price of 1.:)

What, you really can talk total gibberish “2 for the price of 1 Ferrari” going cheap give me a break, yet another thread revolving round absolutely no firm concept ...

BTW I’ll have 30 * 250 Tr’s seeing as how you are offering, I’ll even pay cash I take it you can deliver!? Or is it just talk?
 
Upvote 0
What, you really can talk total gibberish "2 for the price of 1 Ferrari" going cheap give me a break, yet another thread revolving round absolutely no firm concept ...

BTW I'll have 30 * 250 Tr's seeing as how you are offering, I'll even pay cash I take it you can deliver!? Or is it just talk?

Keep taking the pills and don't mix them with booze.;)

Those plants can't really hear you,no matter what Charlie boy says.

Earl
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Keep taking the pills and don't mix them with booze.;)

Those plants can't really hear you,no matter what Charlie boy says.

Earl

Booze is good, keeps me sane in a world which appears to be littered with the righteous who can do no more than preach about my sins but can do sweet FA.

So I guess that's a no ? Great to see on a business forum, more useless dribble poring forth…Is there a sector that I can join that makes me immune to gibberish twaddle, or is it best to just stop returning to UKBF?
 
Upvote 0
My partner TopHat can't write for toffee. The very thought that he might do the copy for our site gives me shivers. However he makes a good site and I can't do that.

I do the best I can and try to incorporate what I have learnt over the years and read about copywriting. So in our case a copywriter is employed and it's me. I'm wracked with doubt over whether I do it properly though.

Sir Earl clearly doesn't suffer from doubt, but perhaps he should. He is impervious to anything but his own methods and no amount of arguing with him will be any use even though a lot of people can see that his sites could actually perform better. Sir Earl isn't interested in seeing if anyone else could be right.

I liked the fact that it was a post by a copywriter, presumably written using his scoffed at skills, which produced the most thanks on this thread, including Sir Earls.
 
Upvote 0
I liked the fact that it was a post by a copywriter, presumably written using his scoffed at skills, which produced the most thanks on this thread, including Sir Earls.

Did you really Think I don't listen to the experts in there various areas.?

Sometimes a red herring is needed to extract information.

I do in fact listen to all points of view,and extract the information that I think is usefull or needed.

How else do you think I became a genius.?:|

As for doubt well I am sure there are lots of things that could improve our turnover slightly in many areas,but I can't be arsed .I suppose I am rather a firm believer that if it ain't broke don't try fixing it till it is.;)

I expect you feel the same about your site.?

After 50 years of working one learns that being content with what you have is a major factor in life.

Earl
 
Upvote 0
My partner TopHat can't write for toffee. The very thought that he might do the copy for our site gives me shivers. However he makes a good site and I can't do that.

I do the best I can and try to incorporate what I have learnt over the years and read about copywriting. So in our case a copywriter is employed and it's me. I'm wracked with doubt over whether I do it properly though.

I liked the fact that it was a post by a copywriter, presumably written using his scoffed at skills, which produced the most thanks on this thread, including Sir Earls.
Morning...

Your post made me smile as sometimes we think we can do everything but in reality it's better to be honest with ourselves. I'd love to be able to design websites, for instance. But, I stick to copy, as that's where my strengths lie. That said, I have an eye for design and often suggest ideas to a client's wed-developer. (To ensure the copy fits with the design)

Copywriting is so diverse: One minute I could be writing a descriptive travel guide, full of juicy adjectives to create pictures in a reader's mind. The next could be spent creating copy which is factual and punchy. An hour later, the copy required might be technical and not need either of these styles.

My personal view is we should respect one another for what we contribute to keeping this country afloat (!) instead of slating people.

Between you and I (And the gatepost...) I'm sure Earl is an astute guy who does listen and take on board what people say. To thank me for my post shows the measure of him.

Anyway, I'm off to London. So, have a great day everyone. :D
 
Upvote 0
I thought I'd repost a post I made in March:

------------------

To give an idea of how much difference copy can make, I'll share something Clayton Makepeace said back in December.

Clayton is believed to be the world's highest paid copywriter - which tells you he knows his stuff.

(especially as most of his > $1m per year is from royalties)

But, he got a 2-1 beating from other copywriters, then wrote a new version and beat the control 3-1.

What this means is, having seen the version that beat him, he was able to write copy that had 6 times the conversion rate of his original.

In his words:

This “24-Hour Wonder” took one day to write, process crits and finalize ... and worked quite well.

We then tested this copy against a promo for the same product created by
an outside team of excellent writers who had much more time to perfect
their copy – and the outside copy beat this version by nearly two to one.

After studying what the outside writers had done and determining a few
key factors that I believed caused the lift, I took one day to write a new
sales page (page 15 of this document) which beat the team copy by three
to one and beat my Version #1 by six to one.

I then spent another day polishing my second version – mostly working
on the price presentation, guarantee and closing copy. The tests are still
ongoing, but on its first outing, Version #3 (page 27 of this document)
beat my Version #2 by eight to one.

(the page references are for the PDF he sent with the different versions of the copy)

I said recently that people don't buy your product, they buy your marketing/copy. And these numbers show how even two versions by the same world class copywriter can produce hugely different results.

Which is why you split-test stuff - only the market really knows which version is best.

If Weiss (Clayton's client) had just gone with Clayton's original copy - it was written by one of the best, after all - he'd have made good money, but he'd have thrown away 83% of his sales.

-------------------

Question: is copywriting important?

Answer: would increasing your conversion rate by 500% make a difference to your life?

Steve
 
  • Like
Reactions: fisicx and Ali-v-8
Upvote 0
As a relative newcomer to copywriting and an absolute newcomer to UKBF I've followed this thread with varying degrees of interest.

Was it a good investment of my time? Polarised debates are often entertaining but rarely productive - in my experience.

Time for a coffee, I think...
 
Upvote 0
Question: is copywriting important?

Answer: would increasing your conversion rate by 500% make a difference to your life?


When you put it like that steve I whole heartedly agree.

Hands up all those that would prefer there conversion rate to increase 500%

Or there Traffic to increase 500%.

Earl
 
Upvote 0

Latest Articles