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Seo and Do You Really Need It?

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fz04

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Jan 12, 2011
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i have seen that alot of new business people are confused about what seo is how it works and whether they even need it

after a long hard look at the many posts in the last few threads i am thinking to write a few threads tomorrow explaining all these things in seo so hopefully new businesses will be able to do the following

first be able to make a decision on whether they really need seo before money is wasted buying seo services they dont need

second is that you will know what is going on when you do visit an seo company and they start coming out with their many catchy seo phrases

thirdly once i write the posts if you need some suggestions on what you could do for seo then just ask away
 
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OldWelshGuy said:
A friendly word, please understand that the posting of articles on the forum is not allowed under the rules, so don't waste your time writing articles that are going to be removed. :)
Click to expand...

hi owg

ohhh not at all, i am not intending to make any articles

i am simply going to answer all the numerous questions posted in the last few threads and some of these questions were even posted by you

i will then explain how these answers fit in with seo and how new businesses can learn from simple seo techniques related to the questions

there will be absolutely no article in site!

or maybe i could do a thread simply to answer any questions on seo anyone asks

i mean that is what this forum is for right?

to help new business people
 
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fz04 said:
hi owg

ohhh not at all, i am not intending to make any articles

i am simply going to answer all the numerous questions posted in the last few threads and some of these questions were even posted by you

i will then explain how these answers fit in with seo and how new businesses can learn from simple seo techniques related to the questions

there will be absolutely no article in site!

or maybe i could do a thread simply to answer any questions on seo anyone asks

i mean that is what this forum is for right?

to help new business people
Click to expand...

yep, to help each other :)
 
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fz04 said:
hi owg

ohhh not at all, i am not intending to make any articles

i am simply going to answer all the numerous questions posted in the last few threads and some of these questions were even posted by you

i will then explain how these answers fit in with seo and how new businesses can learn from simple seo techniques related to the questions

there will be absolutely no article in site!

or maybe i could do a thread simply to answer any questions on seo anyone asks

i mean that is what this forum is for right?

to help new business people
Click to expand...
looking forward yr new post. it must be very valuable to me.
 
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fz04 said:
iafter a long hard look at the many posts in the last few threads i am thinking to write a few threads tomorrow explaining all these things in seo so hopefully new businesses will be able to do the following

first be able to make a decision on whether they really need seo before money is wasted buying seo services they dont need

second is that you will know what is going on when you do visit an seo company and they start coming out with their many catchy seo phrases

thirdly once i write the posts if you need some suggestions on what you could do for seo then just ask away
Click to expand...

That's some build up, especially in the company of genuine industry experts and seasoned fish oil practitioners like myself... I await your advice with baited breath :D
 
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OldWelshGuy said:
A friendly word, please understand that the posting of articles on the forum is not allowed under the rules, so don't waste your time writing articles that are going to be removed. :)
Click to expand...

hi owg

after having a think about it and reading your post again i think you are 100% right

if i write about seo it will just take too long because you have to actually explain what is happening which does not take a couple of words

you have to give a detailed explanation plus some diagrams

i will take your words of advice and not do it because i dont want to be writing stuff only to have it took down and deleted because it would be considered to be an article or very close to an article

the main reason i joined this site was to maybe learn something myself or to be able to help new businesses who are new to business and just getting their foot on the ladder

i still want to help new businesses with seo so i am thinking of just providing them with free seo

do i have to first register as a paid up member and then post in the market place or because i am just helping out for free is it ok to post in the market place without signing up
 
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No offers are allowed outside the marketplace.

Why not simply contribute to the various SEO threads? if people are going to trust you with the future of their business, then I would imagine they would like to have something to judge that service on. After all, a bad SEO can get a site banned. (not saying this is you of course) :)
 
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fz04 said:
if i write about seo it will just take too long because you have to actually explain what is happening which does not take a couple of words

you have to give a detailed explanation plus some diagrams
Click to expand...
What complete tosh.

The are hundreds of threads in the SEO forum stuffed full of useful advice. Rarely is there an image and the explanations can be very brief. If you want to help then answer the questions that are posted. It's not that difficult.

In any case, in another thread you stated you were going to stay clear of the SEO forum.
 
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It's me spolling again.

I meant to say (and have now corrected) that there are rarely any images in the replies to the SEO threads and the written explnations are often quite short. If fizzy can't answer a simple question on a forum I wonder how they are going to manage to help a struggling business.

I need a neu spoll chucker
 
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OldWelshGuy said:
No offers are allowed outside the marketplace.

Why not simply contribute to the various SEO threads? if people are going to trust you with the future of their business, then I would imagine they would like to have something to judge that service on. After all, a bad SEO can get a site banned. (not saying this is you of course) :)
Click to expand...

i have contributed but you made a very good point about the posts looking like articles because they would have to be quite long

if i did the free seo i would do it in a professional manner and i would definately not get a site banned for the simple reason that to employ site banning methods you need to spend money

and for free seo i wouldnt be spending money and from my experiences you do not even need to

you do not even need to submit a site to any search engine to get it ranked

the best advice i could give to anyone interested in doing the seo themselves is to read about the www and how it works technically

the www was made by geeks all the underlying dynamics of the www has been made by students usually doing it for research or study purposes

like with google, the founders were computer science students at mit

if your not technically minded you might learn how to do a few things but u will never have an idea of how its all working

is it also possible to have a signature or is it only for paid membership
 
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fz04 said:
and for free seo i wouldnt be spending money and from my experiences you do not even need to

you do not even need to submit a site to any search engine to get it ranked
Click to expand...

Are you aware that to talk about what you might or might not do is not contributing to a thread, but instead providing us with a less than inciteful monologue :|
 
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quikshop said:
Are you aware that to talk about what you might or might not do is not contributing to a thread, but instead providing us with a less than inciteful monologue :|
Click to expand...

hi quik

i was intending to make a very useful thread but owg said not to.....

on another note

i like your site on martial arts sportswear

i know quite alot of the importers of these products really really well

very very good margins to be made on these products good line to be in!
 
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fz04 said:
i have contributed but you made a very good point about the posts looking like articles because they would have to be quite long

if i did the free seo i would do it in a professional manner and i would definately not get a site banned for the simple reason that to employ site banning methods you need to spend money

and for free seo i wouldnt be spending money and from my experiences you do not even need to

you do not even need to submit a site to any search engine to get it ranked

the best advice i could give to anyone interested in doing the seo themselves is to read about the www and how it works technically

the www was made by geeks all the underlying dynamics of the www has been made by students usually doing it for research or study purposes

like with google, the founders were computer science students at mit

if your not technically minded you might learn how to do a few things but u will never have an idea of how its all working

is it also possible to have a signature or is it only for paid membership
Click to expand...

This is a common misconception that only paid links get you banned.

if you want to get a client banned then simply trade links with sites that are in bad neghbourhoods, that will drag you into the bad neighbourhood (as you are citing them as a resource), and before you know it. Robert is your mothers brother) Bobs your uncle for the non Science graduates out there) :D

It is a shame that you choose not to debate as there is so much.

A point or two though. YEP, Google was invented by students as part of their course. The original algorithm was nicknames 'backrub' and it was based mainly on the value of pages created by academic citation. PageRank was actually named not by connection to a web page, but after Larry Page (one of the founders). it was actually part funded by Stanford university who made a killing when Google floated.

Another point however is wrong. the World wide web was not created by students, it was created by CERN which is the European nuclear research centre. it was pretty much invented by Tim berners lee * Bob Calliau <sp> so wrong on that point

As for non science degree graduates being unable to understand the fundamentals, i think that is a little ungracious. many SEO's spend a LOT of time researching, and reading the numerous patent filings by hi tech companies owned by the main search engines.

Sadly many people confuse education with Intelligence, mostly at their own expense :)
 
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fz04 said:
hi quik

i was intending to make a very useful thread but owg said not to.....

on another note

i like your site on martial arts sportswear

i know quite alot of the importers of these products really really well

very very good margins to be made on these products good line to be in!
Click to expand...

Please don't misquote me. I said be aware that article posting is not allowed. At no time did I tell you not to post, I would never do that :)
 
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OldWelshGuy said:
Please don't misquote me. I said be aware that article posting is not allowed. At no time did I tell you not to post, I would never do that :)
Click to expand...

apologies i misunderstood

and thanks for the heads up on the www, i didnt know page rank was named after Larry Page, guess he had the right name to be in search engine business

but coming to google again from my experiences i am certain that google uses a weighting system for websites where various variables are assigned values such as those you find in a system of counting cards in a black jack system (hope that made sense)
 
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fz04 said:
apologies i misunderstood

and thanks for the heads up on the www, i didnt know page rank was named after Larry Page, guess he had the right name to be in search engine business

but coming to google again from my experiences i am certain that google uses a weighting system for websites where various variables are assigned values such as those you find in a system of counting cards in a black jack system (hope that made sense)
Click to expand...

WARNING... Geeky Content about to be posted!!!

The Google algorithm is a base5 sliding scale (+or-) using over 250 variable value elements. Do the maths and you will quickly work out that the number of variations on the base values is hundreds of millions.

Many elements are inter related. and also there is a large element of 'trsut rank' which impacts on how the algorithm behaves.

Sites are ranked on 2 base elements
1. Importance
2. relevance


Importance is a pure numeric value and it is page rank. Not the silly green toolbar page rank, but LIVE page rank that is constantly updating through the datacentres via a system called everflux. Live page rank impacts on your ranking. Toolbar page rank does not. Live page rank runs from zero to just under 11, and is counted to 13 decimal places. Toolbar Pr is displayed as a whole number and is rounded down.

Relevance (and this is where it gets fun) is the key to all of this seo thingy. A while ago (around 2004 I think) Google bought a company called applied semantics. This company was a natural language company (as the name suggests) . Initially it was bought for implementation into the adsense contextual advertising system, but the 100 or so PHD's they ahve at google quicly realised that this could radically change the old ranking system. and so topic sensitive page rank was born. TSPR has resulted in different amounts of page rank being 'cited' to target pages from links on the same page and site. (back to the 250 elements)

I could go on and bore the pants off everyone but hey ho.

so if anyone is interested. do a google for topic sensitive page rank (TSPR), the hilltop algorithm, and the HITS algorithm. That will give you a real eye opener on the core fundamentals of search engine algorithms, also research 'the anatomy of a search engine' this is an early document from Stanford by paige and brinn. Finally look up a document called combating web spam with trust rank. this is another Stanford document but was written in association with Yahoo.

Finally finally :D have a quick look at BLLA, block level link analysis. this is apatended technology developed by Microsoft.
 
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wow i cant believe it

i wasnt too far off with what i thought and i came to that conclusion from absolutely no reading on the google algorithm but just by using cs common sense

but 13 decimal places that is crazy no wonder there is never a clash in whos number 1 spot and at one time i was thinking the page rank overall score was more like a credit score with a whole number i guess that system would be too simple for the boffins at google

another thing out of those 250 i think if you could narrow down even 20 which have a higher relevance to the others and just concentrated on those you would end up with a good rank

thanks for that owg that was a very good post where i learnt alot

thank you
 
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There are a number of good books covering this I believe. Have been advised to read 'The Art of SEO' by many contributors now and 2 chapters in - I can see why.

Try some solid research as well as hitting the forums.

Gedge
 
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FZ04

Without sounding too negative, why should people listen to you, what have you bought to the forum In this very short 2 weeks you have been a member, and although i have not read all your posts this one springs to mind http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=190281

you now tell us you want to help but that thread you wont tell :|

I totally agree with all thats been said contribute to the problems and solve those issues which in turn will give you more credibility to make such bold statments and claims

Its been done to death how to do Seo and the content you are going to write will be based on your thinking which may be totally wrong.

I suppose the contributers on this site need a some kind of authority badge and its somthing you dont get in 2 weeks of being a member it is earned by contributing to peoples question and helping them solve issues.

Not by adding Just another Article or thread in the name of glory.

I really have no reason to doubt your working practices but me as a member who has been lurking here for the last 2 years know nothing of you, or your work i only have your word your as knowledgable as you want us to believe

Keep contributing but from what i have read so far you have a lot of work to do befor you convince me that i should read your advice over the many others here

Redevo
OWG
Earl
I, brian

and the many others i respect and listen to what they say
 
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fz04 said:
and thanks for the heads up on the www, i didnt know page rank was named after Larry Page, guess he had the right name to be in search engine business
Click to expand...
I thought you studied the algo as part of your education? Since this is a fundamental part of the Google technology I'm amazed you didn't know this.
 
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fisicx said:
I thought you studied the algo as part of your education? Since this is a fundamental part of the Google technology I'm amazed you didn't know this.
Click to expand...

i didnt study the google algo because its closed source





and i have made many helpful posts such as this one here

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=189838&page=2

and many others mostly in the international business section

i think your right it looks like i made a mistake by wandering over to the seo section

i did enter it with what i intended to be a helpful post to new businesses on the www

but i guess with so many seo companies here its been a mistake


"FZ04

Without sounding too negative, why should people listen to you, what have you bought to the forum In this very short 2 weeks you have been a member, and although i have not read all your posts this one springs to mind http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/fo...d.php?t=190281

you now tell us you want to help but that thread you wont tell :|

I totally agree with all thats been said contribute to the problems and solve those issues which in turn will give you more credibility to make such bold statments and claims

Its been done to death how to do Seo and the content you are going to write will be based on your thinking which may be totally wrong.

I suppose the contributers on this site need a some kind of authority badge and its somthing you dont get in 2 weeks of being a member it is earned by contributing to peoples question and helping them solve issues.

Not by adding Just another Article or thread in the name of glory.

I really have no reason to doubt your working practices but me as a member who has been lurking here for the last 2 years know nothing of you, or your work i only have your word your as knowledgable as you want us to believe

Keep contributing but from what i have read so far you have a lot of work to do befor you convince me that i should read your advice over the many others here

Redevo
OWG
Earl
I, brian

and the many others i respect and listen to what they say"
 
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fz04 said:
and i have made many helpful posts such as this one here

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=189838&page=2
Click to expand...

Please please dont take what i put as negative towards your contribution,

the point i was making is there are numerous guides its done to death, doing another is a waste of time, your a new member, even if your right it wont seem that way untill you earn your authority as a contributer

The point i made about the other thread is you cannot dangle a carrot then say im not telling, its better to say nothing then say you know but i aint telling.

Keep up with the contributions, people will always debate on here who is and who is not right as no one really knows.
 
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I think SEO is one of those things where people will always swear by methods they have used and seen work.

SEO needs a lot of testing, fiddling, split testing and I think it can be helped only so far by a book and knowing in theory but you really need to practise and play around with things and get sites ranked and challenging yourself to get sites ranked etc.

I personally think experience is much better than education as anybody could read a book but putting it into action and making it work is the vital part.
 
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fz04 said:
i didnt study the google algo because its closed source
Click to expand...

I did suggest reading this in my previous post, I am really surprised that they did not use this as this is backrub which is the basis for Google. :)

http://infolab.stanford.edu/~backrub/google.html

Now many people have sdaid that the Page rank algorithm was secret sauce, but those of us who have beena round since before google know that not to be the case. in fact they published the core calculations

We assume page A has pages T1...Tn which point to it (i.e., are citations). The parameter d is a damping factor which can be set between 0 and 1. We usually set d to 0.85. There are more details about d in the next section. Also C(A) is defined as the number of links going out of page A. The PageRank of a page A is given as follows: PR(A) = (1-d) + d (PR(T1)/C(T1) + ... + PR(Tn)/C(Tn))
Note that the PageRanks form a probability distribution over web pages, so the sum of all web pages' PageRanks will be one.
​
Click to expand...

If you read the last bit, it gives you a clue as to how PR works with the toolbar. If the sum of all pages pageranks will be 1, this means that every page starts life with a pagerank of 1, otherwise there could be no page rank. This is how sites can gain PR without links, and why internal linking architecture is crucial to SEO.

Also simply by reading that little snippet I (and others) worked out that PR doesn't in fact CAN NOT stop at 10, because if it did then there could be no PR10 pages, as ToolbarPR only shows a value rolled back to the whole number when the whole number has been passed.

Congratulations on your assumption with regard factors and values, but with respect, there is a long road to go down if you are not certain about these core elements in SEO.

You are an academic, so I assume that as Computer Science grad, you are aware of the importance of the need for structure. Google works best if you have a clear file and folder structure which is pyramid and mdular pyramid in layout.

Anything to discuss so far?

Apologies for the long posts, but I am trying to show you that trade secrets and misering information is not what forums are all about.

I have posted a load of information in this thread, cited some fantastic references, but I don't feel threatened, why should I?

If a carpenter explains what a spoke shave does, has he risked his future? nope, not at all. :)
 
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thanks for that mystro

just had a look at your website

you need to center some of the links at the bottom

apart from that it is very good, one of the best ones i have seen on this site


Mystro said:
Please please dont take what i put as negative towards your contribution,

the point i was making is there are numerous guides its done to death, doing another is a waste of time, your a new member, even if your right it wont seem that way untill you earn your authority as a contributer

The point i made about the other thread is you cannot dangle a carrot then say im not telling, its better to say nothing then say you know but i aint telling.

Keep up with the contributions, people will always debate on here who is and who is not right as no one really knows.
Click to expand...
 
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Oh, I meant to add, that all that fancy namby pamby scientific calculus means absolutely zip to a client, they want to make money, plain and simple, nothing more. Although some clients like to know more than others, but it is all about making money.

As has been said, you read the theory, then you test it. you make a change to a page and observe, you need control sites in your tests just as in any scientific experiment.

You test and test and test but NEVER test on a client site.
 
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i think you have made one of the most important points which affect seo in this post

ty

OldWelshGuy said:
I did suggest reading this in my previous post, I am really surprised that they did not use this as this is backrub which is the basis for Google. :)

http://infolab.stanford.edu/~backrub/google.html

Now many people have sdaid that the Page rank algorithm was secret sauce, but those of us who have beena round since before google know that not to be the case. in fact they published the core calculations
Click to expand...
 
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OldWelshGuy said:
Oh, I meant to add, that all that fancy namby pamby scientific calculus means absolutely zip to a client, they want to make money, plain and simple, nothing more. Although some clients like to know more than others, but it is all about making money.

As has been said, you read the theory, then you test it. you make a change to a page and observe, you need control sites in your tests just as in any scientific experiment.

You test and test and test but NEVER test on a client site.
Click to expand...

your right i dont really know about seo from a business perspective for me it was just a challenge to see if i could apply simple techniques to help boost a websites place

if you are doing it for a paid client you will have to take a different approach as you will also be under pressure to provide results
 
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I would say try Affiliate Marketing or even site flipping for testing.

If you find a keyword, make a little site with Adsense on it and then get it ranked and sell it on.

You can test all you want to get the site ranking then without making promises or letting anybody down :)
 
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Smarter Webdesign said:
I would say try Affiliate Marketing or even site flipping for testing.

If you find a keyword, make a little site with Adsense on it and then get it ranked and sell it on.

You can test all you want to get the site ranking then without making promises or letting anybody down :)
Click to expand...

thanks i never knew about that
 
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fz04:after a long hard look at the many posts in the last few threads i am thinking to write a few threads tomorrow explaining all these things in seo
Click to expand...
fz04: your right i dont really know about seo from a business perspective
Click to expand...
:| Something appears to be not quite right here? :|

.
 
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