Will digital ID cards tackle illegal working?

[bizvids]

Personally I think "no" as anybody working illegally in the Black Economy still won't be documented and will likely be paid in cash, but what do others think?

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Personally I think "no" as anybody working illegally in the Black Economy still won't be documented and will likely be paid in cash, but what do others think?

Totally agree plus no need for digital, just open to crime at some point in the future plus theft of phones. far to much use of phones to make buying easy for some others prefer cards

 

[fisicx]

Probably not.

The blokes doing the building work next door couldn't speak a word of English, were delivered by minibus and paid in cash (and apparently crates of beer). I doubt anyone except their mum knows they are here.

 

[japancool]

No, and it's not going to convince anyone to change their minds about immigration either.

 

[Ozzy]

As an employer acting legal, you already have to do right to work checks, and verify employees ID and residence status.
So companies who employ people legally now will just have an extra check, and those who don't employ people legally will just have an extra check to ignore.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Could always just close down any company found to have illegal workers or increase the fine to about £50,000 which most likely do the same effect

 

[FreddyG]

In a word - No!

The time to introduce a central register of all citizens was after the war in 1945. Now it is far too late! A completely viable labour black market has developed since then. That cat is out of the bag ages ago! All this talk of a digital register is total BS, as if the word 'digital' is somehow a magic bullet!

It's time that the various UK governments grew up and grew a pair! Every other European country has had a central register without it being a threat to democracy and freedom since the war, but here it is regarded as somehow a dreadful threat to our way of life! Bonkers, just bonkers!

 

[fisicx]

In Germany right now there are tens of thousands all working illegally. Having a central register doesn’t stop this.

 

[WaveJumper]

No its all BS and like a magician whilst we are all watching and discussing this hand I am very concerned about what the other hand is hiding and what is really coming down the road.

 

[tony84]

Looking at half the car washes, turkish barbers, vape shops, just eat riders etc...
If they can work without a valid visa, NI number, bank account and are prepared to work for half the cost of someone who is allowed to work here without having to pay NI, pension etc etc then no, short of a cashless society you are not going to stop these people working and certainly not with an ID card.

I dont have any strong feelings on the card myself, google send messages to my phone asking what such and such a place was like and to review it because they know I have been there. They also send me notification when I pay for something contactless. They display ads about things I was talking about with mates. Also monthly they send me a summary of places I have been, walks I have taken, bike rides I have been on whether that is local or abroad. Why would I be bothered about a card? If the govt want to know anything about me, they just need to ask google, it will know far more about me. I think they also have my finger print?

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

I don't like it one bit
Discussing it on here will get us into a lot of trouble.
Take care of yourselves my good comrades

 

[Newchodge]

Of course not. There are already perfectly adequate right to work checks. The problem is employers who do not check, either because they cannot be bothered (some on here a while ago) or because they are willing to take the risk. Current fines are unlimited or can be 5 years jail.

 

[Nathanto]

Personally I think "no" as anybody working illegally in the Black Economy still won't be documented and will likely be paid in cash, but what do others think?

I disagree with most posters here.

Digital ID cards obviously won't fix the problem but I do think that they will reduce the problem to an extent. The reason being that I think it will make investigating and enforcing the current rules much quicker and easier.

Hardly anyone carries their passport or birth certificate around with them but almost everyone has their smartphone with them at all times, including at work.

Even if the only benefit was that enforcement officers can immediately weed out those who do have a right to work then that in itself is a cost and time saving. In reality the illegals are as human as the rest of us and many will always have their phone with them; make it an offence to refuse to unlock your phone to prove you have a right to work and dodgy individuals can quickly be detained for further investigation.

The problem is employers who do not check, either because they cannot be bothered (some on here a while ago) or because they are willing to take the risk.

Having proof of your right to work on your smartphone will make it quicker and easier for employers to check while at the same time making it harder for employers to claim they did correctly check when they didn't.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

How long do you think it will take for fake authorisations to be on illegals phones in one way or another, nothing these days is fool proof

 

[Nathanto]

How long do you think it will take for fake authorisations to be on illegals phones in one way or another, nothing these days is fool proof

Nothing is foolproof but there are ways and means for authorities and employers to quickly and easily validate any authorisation a phone may show on screen - obviously we don't yet have any detail on how the IDs will be implemented but you would hope that such things will be addressed beforehand.

 

[Newchodge]

I disagree with most posters here.

Digital ID cards obviously won't fix the problem but I do think that they will reduce the problem to an extent. The reason being that I think it will make investigating and enforcing the current rules much quicker and easier.

Hardly anyone carries their passport or birth certificate around with them but almost everyone has their smartphone with them at all times, including at work.

Even if the only benefit was that enforcement officers can immediately weed out those who do have a right to work then that in itself is a cost and time saving. In reality the illegals are as human as the rest of us and many will always have their phone with them; make it an offence to refuse to unlock your phone to prove you have a right to work and dodgy individuals can quickly be detained for further investigation.



Having proof of your right to work on your smartphone will make it quicker and easier for employers to check while at the same time making it harder for employers to claim they did correctly check when they didn't.

The employer has to prove they checked properly if enforcement officer find illegal workers. The enforcement officers do not rely on the workers producing their ID, so neither of those work.

I, personally, would like a proper ID card, and have no problem with carrying one, although there must be a physical as well as a smart version. As long as it is never a criminal offence to not carry it.

 

[japancool]

In itself, a universal mandatory ID card is a good idea. It would give you a way to access services without having to remember 24 different numbers - NI number, NHS number, UTR, etc. etc. Believe it or not, there are some people who don't have a passport and don't drive. Have you ever tried to even open a Google Ads account without one of those two?

But curbing illegal working? No. No one who currently doesn't carry out the mandatory checks is going to start doing it now that it's digital. And this assumes that all the systems are set up to allow the checks to happen. When eVisas came in, I nearly got stuck in Amsterdam because my airline couldn't check mine online because their systems weren't properly integrated with the UK system. If I hadn't been carrying an expired paper document as well, I would have been stuck. And phones get stolen more often than physical ID does.

Right now though, I'm more worried about being deported in 4 years time if ILR is abolished, because that's what I'm here on.

 

[Nathanto]

The employer has to prove they checked properly if enforcement officer find illegal workers. The enforcement officers do not rely on the workers producing their ID, so neither of those work.

That may be current rules but I'm assuming new rules and legislation will be introduced alongside digital IDs and surely one of the objectives is to use biometric data to identify people?

I, personally, would like a proper ID card, and have no problem with carrying one, although there must be a physical as well as a smart version. As long as it is never a criminal offence to not carry it.

Agreed although like car insurance or a driving licence, it should be a criminal offence not to produce one within say 7 days if reasonably required to do so by the authorities.

 

[DontAsk]

In itself, a universal mandatory ID card is a good idea. It would give you a way to access services without having to remember 24 different numbers - NI number, NHS number, UTR, etc. etc.

Therein lies the problem. Once you've been hacked, they have access to EVERYTHING.

Identity theft becomes so much easier.

If someone manages to find my NHS number, they do not have NI number, UTR, driving license details, etc., ...

It needs to be thought through and planned way more thoroughly than any partisan government can be trusted to do so, not as publicity stunt to divert attention from the real problems.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

nothing these days is fool proof

Which is not a reason not to do anything!!

I have no issue with a digital/physical ID card or even 'citizen card' (i.e. one system for all access), as long as everything worked seamlessly together.

I have a bad shoulder and needed an MRI. Had it last week and wanted to check on it. Log into NHS app - sorry, go to Patient Knows Best. Sorry, not us, try Dr Doctor (or whatever)....... Why can't we just have one medical app?

Anyway, I have a passport, driving licence (albeit paper, still) and a string of other 'ID's. Why wouldn't it make sense to combine these?

Will it stop the boats? Of course not. Will it reduce under-the-table employment? Unlikely - that is an enforcement issue, not ID one.

 

[Newchodge]

That may be current rules but I'm assuming new rules and legislation will be introduced alongside digital IDs and surely one of the objectives is to use biometric data to identify people?

How? The employer may use the ID card to do the check, but how does the employer check the card belongs to the holder? They won't use fingerprints.

 

[MikeJ]

Can't you build a facial recognition and fingerprint check into the digital ID? Someone has to provide their phone with a Right To Work ID on it, and then verify it in front of the employer with their fingerprint?

 

[Nathanto]

How? The employer may use the ID card to do the check, but how does the employer check the card belongs to the holder? They won't use fingerprints.

Obviously we don't know the details of how or what form a digital ID will actually take but there could be any number of verification options available.

One option would be face-ID verification of the digital ID you are claiming is yours - the technology is already in use with HSBC and Starling Bank as well as other commercial organisations.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

How? The employer may use the ID card to do the check, but how does the employer check the card belongs to the holder?

If you apply for an online bank account and use your passport (or, I seem to remember, apply for DBS), you enter your passport number and it then asks for a live photo to authenticate.

 

[japancool]

That may be current rules but I'm assuming new rules and legislation will be introduced alongside digital IDs and surely one of the objectives is to use biometric data to identify people?

Those things used to exist, with the biometric residence permits, which was only ever supplied to some people when applying for new visas. All the infrastructure was also already there. Non-British citizens could voluntarily apply for one at quite a significant cost. Then, in their wisdom, the government withdrew them all at the end of 2024 (this was planned under the previous Tory government). Now we will need new investment to make it work, and we all know how well government IT projects go.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

A ID Card would be great for stopping the miss use of foreigners using NHS benefits

 

[japancool]

A ID Card would be great for stopping the miss use of foreigners using NHS benefits

NHS benefits?

 

[Chris Ashdown]

NHS benefits?

Free medical care by illegals as well as those not entitled including giving birth to gain uk citizenship (often on holiday from overseas)

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

Are you sure that children born in the UK to foreign parents (no passport or ILR) get citizenship?

 

[japancool]

Free medical care by illegals as well as those not entitled including giving birth to gain uk citizenship (often on holiday from overseas)

Err... the UK doesn't provide jus soli.

Apply for citizenship if you were born in the UK

Apply for British citizenship if you were born in the UK - who's eligible, fees and how to apply

www.gov.uk

 

[Newchodge]

Free medical care by illegals as well as those not entitled including giving birth to gain uk citizenship (often on holiday from overseas)

You do not gain UK citizenship by being born in the UK. That ended in 1983. There are very few illegals. By law they are people who have been refused permission to stay. Anyone awaiting permission to stay is here perfectly legally

 

[Newchodge]

Obviously we don't know the details of how or what form a digital ID will actually take but there could be any number of verification options available.

One option would be face-ID verification of the digital ID you are claiming is yours - the technology is already in use with HSBC and Starling Bank as well as other commercial organisations.

Bearing in mind the employer will only look at this information when employing the individual. They do not check the ID every day they turn up to see if someone else is there in their place.

 

[Gecko001]

A big system, no doubt creating "high value" jobs in the IT industry, to do what? You still need the men and women on the ground going to the firms they suspect of employing workers illegally and collecting evidence. It will not make their jobs any easier as far as I can see.

 

[gpietersz]

Its not going to help, and it is going to introduce a whole lot of IT securities (increasing attack surface) for no benefit.

Personally I think the solution is to give illegal workers a right to be paid the usual pay for a British worker doing the same job, and to sue the employer for that they would have to turn them in. That would give them an incentive to do so.

Alternatively pay a bounty and a free flight home if they turn in the employer.

I am against an ID card as it will greatly increase tracking, and once its introduced it will get used for everything. There is a serious reduction in privacy, especially coming on top of the Online Safety Act and the Children's Wellbing and Schools Bill.

IMO they are just using illegal immigration to try and con the public to back a policy that has been tried an rejected before (by Blair, IIRC).

 

[japancool]

There is a serious reduction in privacy

It doesn't appear to have been an issue in Europe, most countries of which have an ID card.

 

[gpietersz]

It doesn't appear to have been an issue in Europe, most countries of which have an ID card.

It is a problem. Just a problem they already have and we have not had in the past. The move to digital makes it a lot worse, because it can be tracked a lot more. It also forces people to carry a smartphone everywhere - so telling citizens they must by a product from an American duopoly and carry it around with them.

Much of Europe has privacy issues. The EU's chat control plans are even worse than our legislation

 

[japancool]

It is a problem. Just a problem they already have

In what way? Give me some concrete examples, not "I think they have problems". Show me where people have actually suffered because of it.

 

[Newchodge]

In what way? Give me some concrete examples, not "I think they have problems". Show me where people have actually suffered because of it.

Many European countries have ID cards, not digital cards. The issues are very different.

 

[japancool]

Many European countries have ID cards, not digital cards. The issues are very different.

Other than Estonia. But more specifically, what are the issues?

 

[Newchodge]

Other than Estonia. But more specifically, what are the issues?

When the ID card is a piece of plastic containing basic personal data, the only issue is privacy, which was lost a long time ago anyway.