Where Have They All Gone

[The Byre]

That was my - frankly rather weak - reason for voting remain. It's also the reason for now being desparate to leave, seeing how entwined we have become with a bunch of greedy, corrupt, self-serving bureaucrats.

On a point of order - there are just 32,000 'Eurocrats' for the whole of the vast EU civil service - but within the bowels of central government, nearly half a million UK civil servants.

Or as Sir Humphrey put it "Please don't judge the Civil Service by results! It's activity that counts!"

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Bloody hell. How old are you as https://allcleartravel.co.uk/travel-insurance/over-90s/this company covers over 90s but maybe if you're over 100 there could be problems

Dear Ian

I've been on any number of these sites. They draw you in and then after spending ages on their website say 12 month policies not possible. As well as visiting the EU we also travel to places like Mexico and Costa Rica. All, and I mean all, insurance companies use just 2 US based companies to refer to for risks and hospital prices.

The European Health card was a very good deal for the UK. Other countries outside the EU have it. Why do the UK want to drop their commitment?

French, Spanish and other EU visitors will still get free treatment in the UK on the NHS as will visitors from the USA and Nigeria etc.

 

[Ian J]

I've been on any number of these sites. They draw you in and then after spending ages on their website say 12 month policies not possible. As well as visiting the EU we also travel to places like Mexico and Costa Rica.

Have a look at https://www.travelinsurancesaver.co.uk which is where I get my most recent annual policy from which includes a medical declaration. I have previously used Post Office but their premium shot up last year.

Mine is Europe only though

 

[Mark T Jones]

On a point of order - there are just 32,000 'Eurocrats' for the whole of the vast EU civil service - but within the bowels of central government, nearly half a million UK civil servants.

Or as Sir Humphrey put it "Please don't judge the Civil Service by results! It's activity that counts!"

On the other hand, that's 32,000 additional snouts in the trough, and a large percentage are in the category of those that can corrupt.

Government universally is corrupt, and in most countries is a job ceation scheme - I get that. I just don't want to add more tiers of bureaucracy

 

[alan1302]

You are agreeing with my original response which makes me wonder if you are just arguing for the sake of it

Your original response was that the EU assume everyone has a new phone - I said that they don't assume you do. You said that was wrong - I just don't see how they can bring in a standard for chargers if you want people with older/used phones to have to use the same chargers - you point makes no sense.

 

[Ian J]

Your original response was that the EU assume everyone has a new phone - I said that they don't assume you do. You said that was wrong - I just don't see how they can bring in a standard for chargers if you want people with older/used phones to have to use the same chargers - you point makes no sense.

As I said, you are agreeing with my original response if only you bother to read it properly.

Robin stated that "the EU created the mobile phone charger harmonisation rules -which is a benefit, no longer do we have a million different leads," to which I responded that it's only a benefit if we all have new phones

 

[simon field]

Please, just get a new phone, it’ll be quicker & easier!

 

[RobinBHM]

Remoaners don’t care about democracy, their selfish wishes comes above everyone else’s.

Hey, these vague encompass all quotes are easy...

the leave campaign sold a brexit that cant be delivered because its fantasy

so there was zero democracy on the referendum nor any of the 4 years of brexit lies given by brexiter politicians

last week Johnson said "a deal like Canada or Australia.....Australia is code for no deal and the UK has never negotiated or requested a Canada deal .... a lie

last week Gove said: "no customs border between NI and UK.....a lie

nothing vague there old bean -provable lies

 

[RobinBHM]

I absolutely understand this reasoning, and think it is a valid reason to leave the EU.

However, I fear we will just exchange one set of greedy, self serving and corrupt set of individuals for another. One only needs to look at our current government and cronies to arrive at that conclusion.

brexit was simply a vehicle for deregulation....theres a reason why the many brexit propaganda websites pushing out lies are all funded by libertarian groups

Matthew Elliot -top Tory advisor has close connections to Koch brothers

https://www.desmog.co.uk/2020/02/13...government-and-tufton-street-lobbying-network

 

[RobinBHM]

Then we should debate how we can reform politics.

Should we have PR voting? If so which system?

Do we need a written constitution?

Should we abolish the HoL? And if we do what should replace it?

Leaving the EU means that our electorate now has full power. 'We the people' as the Americans put it.

the electorate doesnt have full power -FPTP means only a minority is needed to win

democracy doesnt mean much in reality.

and government is influenced by the wealthy with the sole intention of them keeping hold of their dosh.

countires with PR governments seem to have more adult politics

 

[RobinBHM]

I suspect what will happen will be similar to just after the referendum.

A lot of speculative doom and gloom how the economy will tank overnight but in reality, life will continue pretty much as normal.

it wont tank overnight, but there will be a long decline

UK has decided it needs big trade barriers between itself and its biggest and nearest trade partner....and also the worlds largest harmonised customs union

theres no upside, just a bunch of people clinging to the empire.

 

[RobinBHM]

Business going where their customers are or where the business can survive?
Hardly unknown.

Setting up new supply chains etc inside the EU? Good business sense.
Just like UK companies will, where they can, have made arrangements to improve supply chain or take advantage of local supply & demand.

Why do you think Foreign Direct investment has dropped by 20% since 2016
and is forecast to drop by 40% next year

because the exact reason you have said:........

businesses are going where their customers are and a new business in the UK has a customer base that has is no longer 500 million people but 65 million people.

 

[Mr D]

the leave campaign sold a brexit that cant be delivered because its fantasy

so there was zero democracy on the referendum nor any of the 4 years of brexit lies given by brexiter politicians

last week Johnson said "a deal like Canada or Australia.....Australia is code for no deal and the UK has never negotiated or requested a Canada deal .... a lie

last week Gove said: "no customs border between NI and UK.....a lie

nothing vague there old bean -provable lies

Wow, the arguments against the referendum get more desperate.

Did you guys encourage Trump?

 

[Mr D]

Why do you think Foreign Direct investment has dropped by 20% since 2016
and is forecast to drop by 40% next year

because the exact reason you have said:........

businesses are going where their customers are and a new business in the UK has a customer base that has is no longer 500 million people but 65 million people.

Really?
That is a small customer base.

The company with that - it's HMRC?

 

[RobinBHM]

Wow, the arguments against the referendum get more desperate.

Did you guys encourage Trump?

"easiest deal in history" LIE
"we need them more than they need us" LIE
"German car industry" LIE
"get back sovereignty" LIE
"get back independence" LIE
"get back fishing" LIE
"make better trade deals" LIE
"lower prices" LIE
"whole of UK leaves EU" LIE
"unfettered access NI GB" LIE
"save £350M" LIE
"less red tape" LIE
"save EU membership fee" LIE
"oven ready deal" LIE

please do provide any examples of the leave campaign that stated something actually true

 

[RobinBHM]

Really?
That is a small customer base.

The company with that - it's HMRC?

many businesses set up in the UK to benefit from the frictionless Single Market

UK enjoyed decades of very significant FDI....not any more

the only route UK can do now is deregulate and turn UK into a tax haven.....thatll really benefit the majority of leave voters, esp from the industrial heartlands

 

[Mr D]

the electorate doesnt have full power -FPTP means only a minority is needed to win

democracy doesnt mean much in reality.

and government is influenced by the wealthy with the sole intention of them keeping hold of their dosh.

countires with PR governments seem to have more adult politics

FPTP means more need to vote for one candidate than any other single candidate in order for them to win.
Good old democracy. Person with the most votes wins.

Government can be influenced by lots of people. Not just the wealthy.
Ever met an MP?

 

[Mr D]

many businesses set up in the UK to benefit from the frictionless Single Market

UK enjoyed decades of very significant FDI....not any more

the only route UK can do now is deregulate and turn UK into a tax haven.....thatll really benefit the majority of leave voters, esp from the industrial heartlands

Cool.
Cannot offhand think of a poor tax haven with low standard of living.

 

[RobinBHM]

FPTP means more need to vote for one candidate than any other single candidate in order for them to win.
Good old democracy. Person with the most votes wins.

Government can be influenced by lots of people. Not just the wealthy.
Ever met an MP?

good try but no cigar.

FPTP means most of the country get no say

if you live in a constituency with a large majority you get zero say

the power of a government is determined by the number seats it has....which is not reflected by the number of votes it won.

 

[RobinBHM]

Cool.
Cannot offhand think of a poor tax haven with low standard of living.

Singapore

high gdp per capita and a problem with poverty

 

[RobinBHM]

Government can be influenced by lots of people. Not just the wealthy

No sorry untrue, at least on the right

Tory donors influence policy by paying money.
Tory MPs are influenced by vested self interest.

I dare say its true of the left too to an extent by unions

 

[Mr D]

No sorry untrue, at least on the right

Tory donors influence policy by paying money.
Tory MPs are influenced by vested self interest.

I dare say its true of the left too to an extent by unions

Then get some political influence. Meet MPs. Meet candidates. Become member of a party.
Support your mp.

You are thinking of one small aspect of influence.
It can be considerably wider.

You influence other people around you at times? It's no different.
The elected officials, whether in the government, in the biggest Westminster party, or one of the other parties, are all human. Influenced by those around them, by those they meet with, by those they read, those they watch.

But if you choose not to influence them that is your choice. Not because you cannot but because you choose not.

 

[simon field]

please do provide any examples of the leave campaign that stated something actually true

Me, me I have one!

“we will enact the will of the British people”?

 

[alan1302]

As I said, you are agreeing with my original response if only you bother to read it properly.

Robin stated that "the EU created the mobile phone charger harmonisation rules -which is a benefit, no longer do we have a million different leads," to which I responded that it's only a benefit if we all have new phones

You replied with 'Isn't there an assumption that people all have brand new phones' - don't think it's that clear - but ok

 

[alan1302]

last week Johnson said "a deal like Canada or Australia.....Australia is code for no deal and the UK has never negotiated or requested a Canada deal .... a lie

And the Australian PM (I think it was him) said the deal they have with the EU is not a particularly good one.

 

[MBE2017]

In the last year 58 out of 59 trade deals successful, seems the EU struggles with such things. Congrats to Liz Trust who must be the most productive MP in history.

The UK is going to boom going forward, the whole of the rest of the world seems to be beating a path to our door, happy to trade with us, happy to buy from us. The EU’s loss is the worlds gain.

 

[Ian J]

In the last year 58 out of 59 trade deals successful, seems the EU struggles with such things. Congrats to Liz Trust who must be the most productive MP in history.

Have you seen the list of those countries that we have trade deals with?

Chile, Ivory Coast, Faroe Islands, Georgia, Kosovo, Lebanon Palestinian Authority and Tunisia are included on the list. The bulk of our trade is with EU and USA and those are the two that matter

 

[Newchodge]

In the last year 58 out of 59 trade deals successful, seems the EU struggles with such things. Congrats to Liz Trust who must be the most productive MP in history.

The UK is going to boom going forward, the whole of the rest of the world seems to be beating a path to our door, happy to trade with us, happy to buy from us. The EU’s loss is the worlds gain.

Are they full trade deals or agreements to continue with existing EU agreements?

 

[MBE2017]

Are they full trade deals or agreements to continue with existing EU agreements?

Existing or better.

USA has signed a continuation deal to start when the transition period is finished, they are looking to have a full FTA with the UK next year.

 

[The Byre]

On a minor (maybe not so bloody minor!) point of order, any deal struck with the EU seems to be not going to be open to debate or scrutiny.

This is going to have Brexiteers and Remoaners alike all shouting 'Foul!'

MPs may have to sit until Christmas Eve to pass a deal with the EU, or, worse still, may not be able to vote until next year and will have to retrospectively 'correct' domestic law to recognise an agreement.

We can therefore safely say any proper scrutiny of whatever Boris brings back is for the birds.

Johnson and Co have repeatedly gone back on so-called hard-and-fast promises, such as -

• No border in the Irish Sea
• The ease of the oven-ready deal
• No checks on goods coming from Northern Ireland
• No EU officials overseeing checks on goods in NI.

This government has painted the UK into a corner by legally enshrining a total pig-in-a-poke. They were aided and abetted by the very politicians now fearing a great sell-out to Brussels, who were complicit in cheerleading the oven-ready deal that wasn't.

Whatever comes out of these talks on a deal will please nobody and may even cause a great deal of damage.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

We can therefore safely say any proper scrutiny of whatever Boris brings back is for the birds.

And as Brexiters will say, "We got back control in the name of democracy and sovreignity."

And if sovreignity is such a big deal how come we have US controlled nuclear weapons on our soil? And US citizens able to dodge manslaughter charges so easily?

 

[MBE2017]

On a minor (maybe not so bloody minor!) point of order, any deal struck with the EU seems to be not going to be open to debate or scrutiny.

This is going to have Brexiteers and Remoaners alike all shouting 'Foul!'

MPs may have to sit until Christmas Eve to pass a deal with the EU, or, worse still, may not be able to vote until next year and will have to retrospectively 'correct' domestic law to recognise an agreement.

The same applies for the EU, both parties will have little time to scrutinise the deal, MEP’s are just as angry as many UK MP’s. There is no guarantee any agreement will be ratified, personally I think it will be a bad deal for all.

Hopefully any agreement rushed now can be ripped up in the near future and start again.

 

[The Byre]

Hopefully any agreement rushed now can be ripped up in the near future and start again.

Oh goody, goody!

We can then go through all this madness all over again!

All we would need then is another pandemic and our lives would be complete!

 

[Mr D]

Oh goody, goody!

We can then go through all this madness all over again!

All we would need then is another pandemic and our lives would be complete!

Don't be silly, we are ready for a pandemic.

Its supervolcano next!

Followed by the grandson of Godzilla.

 

[thetiger2015]

And as Brexiters will say, "We got back control in the name of democracy and sovreignity."

And if sovreignity is such a big deal how come we have US controlled nuclear weapons on our soil? And US citizens able to dodge manslaughter charges so easily?

We're also potentially going to see the construction of a new Chinese embassy in London:
https://www.cbre.co.uk/services/bus...ent/new-chinese-embassy-site-royal-mint-court <<< over 5 acres of estate opposite the Tower of London. Not sure how that fits with the Brexiteer mindset of 'taking back control'. This combined with the new US embassy at Nine Elms means we're slap bang in the middle of two nations involved in a trade war. What could possibly go wrong? (Yes, I know we already have embassies but these are mega-embassies, they're huge, vast, with foreign staff and maximum security etc.)

As for the trade deals - they're just fluff. Mostly with countries that would agree to any trade deal, because they need to shift something. Japans deal is worse than what we had with the EU, we don't have an agreement with the EU our biggest trading partner for decades and the US is a continuation deal for trade. They're helping us out, as usual, just as mates. They will come back to the table next year and Biden is most certainly not going to be our 'best buddy'. He's made it clear. Any deals will involve gold plated promises on the NI border and his ancestry traces back to Ireland: https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/11/19/joe-biden-irish-ireland-special-relationship/ <<< it will be the Irish that benefit most from Brexit, not England. With US backing, access to the EU and access to the NI border which will remain clear of any British obstacles, they may well flourish.

The continual goading of Scotland isn't going to help either. Not sure what the plan is but it seems like they want Scotland to go for another vote?

I also don't understand the joy from Brexiteers, when they scream 'the EU will collapse in a few years' <<< how is that useful exactly? We've had peace in Europe for decades. This is a remarkable achievement, considering we all have differing opinions on virtually every subject. The UK is so far the only participant that has decided to row backwards and remove itself from the group completely. We haven't opted out of certain things, we've literally just thrown in the towel and gone home. Writing off any chance of a Norway/Canada style deal in the nearest future and tarnishing our reputation as negotiators.

 

[Ally Maxwell]

Me, me I have one!

“we will enact the will of the British people”?

And, like every other Brexiter claim, even that one isn't true.

They will enact the will of 37% of voting age adults.

 

[Mr D]

On a minor (maybe not so bloody minor!) point of order, any deal struck with the EU seems to be not going to be open to debate or scrutiny.

This is going to have Brexiteers and Remoaners alike all shouting 'Foul!'

MPs may have to sit until Christmas Eve to pass a deal with the EU, or, worse still, may not be able to vote until next year and will have to retrospectively 'correct' domestic law to recognise an agreement.

We can therefore safely say any proper scrutiny of whatever Boris brings back is for the birds.

Johnson and Co have repeatedly gone back on so-called hard-and-fast promises, such as -

• No border in the Irish Sea
• The ease of the oven-ready deal
• No checks on goods coming from Northern Ireland
• No EU officials overseeing checks on goods in NI.

This government has painted the UK into a corner by legally enshrining a total pig-in-a-poke. They were aided and abetted by the very politicians now fearing a great sell-out to Brussels, who were complicit in cheerleading the oven-ready deal that wasn't.

Whatever comes out of these talks on a deal will please nobody and may even cause a great deal of damage.

What would be the point of having several thousand people scrutinising and debating a deal before it could be signed? You'd never get anything signed!
Its negotiated. The 28 states either vote to accept it or to reject it. They can debate it as much as they want before the vote but they are not going to change anything in it.

Hey, that sounds exactly like a negotiation. As done thousands of times before by governments.

 

[simon field]

And, like every other Brexiter claim, even that one isn't true.

They will enact the will of 37% of voting age adults.

...that’s because the youngsters couldn’t be bothered to turn up though.

Hardly the Brexit party’s fault is it?

 

[Mr D]

...that’s because the youngsters couldn’t be bothered to turn up though.

Hardly the Brexit party’s fault is it?

As decisions are made by those who turn up....
Those who didn't bother turning up can't then complain when the decision is different to what they want.

Luckily we aren't a country requiring every adult to vote at gunpoint. Its choice.

 

[simon field]

Exactly.