What makes the Israeli Army the greatest in the world?

Why is it that most of the regular posters on these forums seem to think that vague one sentence replies is an adequate response? Please enlightened me on my 'extreme racial bias'? As far as I can tell I was stating facts as well as a fair and revealing personal opinion.

Economy of effort.:)

One wonders how you would have responded if you had had Jewish blood in your family.?

Your emotional response to a situation does not necessarily make them facts.

Its always nice to see a balanced view of a situation hence a post pointing out the faults of just one of the participants in what is a very complex situation.

I mean one did not hear a word about the intent of Isreal's neighbours to wipe them off the face of the earth along with the rest of western civilization.;)

Earl
 
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Sacha

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Economy of effort.:)

Personally I would see it as the opposite: as wasteful both of your time and the forum's database to post a vague, unsubstantiated attack (yes, you did call me racist after all) on a fellow member. A post that would doubtlessly require another post simply to clear up your original post. In my opinion, very uneconomic.

One wonders how you would have responded if you had had Jewish blood in your family.?

Well I can't answer this question with certainty, of course, but as of right now, if I had Jewish blood in my family I would feel the same way. I know many a Jew who are disgusted by the Israeli state and its actions.

Your emotional response to a situation does not necessarily make them facts.

Thanks for stating the obvious. If you would care to read my posts again you would see that I have made a clear distinction between what I stated as fact, and what I stated as my emotional opinion. My emotional opinion (that Israel should pay for its atrocities) - i like to believe - stem from being a proud member of the human race, rather than being of Muslin descent. Everything else in my post was in fact, fact. (please highlight if I am wrong)

Its always nice to see a balanced view of a situation hence a post pointing out the faults of just one of the participants in what is a very complex situation.

I mean one did not hear a word about the intent of Isreal's neighbours to wipe them off the face of the earth along with the rest of western civilization.;)

Earl

Where exactly is this balance that I should be aspiring to relate earl?

Israel is a terrorist state period. and nobody is doing anything about it.

iran is likewise a rogue (though not terrorist) regime and one I would also like to see radically changed (I have travelled to iran twice so I know what it's like there and revolution is not far off).

However when iran does something wrong, it isn't ignored by the international community. When israel build 70-150 illegal nuclear weapons (a war-hungry state bare in mind) nothing is done. I could go on and on about the other 1000 unfairnesses but I'm sure a clever gentleman as yourself is already aware of them.

please though earl, why do you think I am racially biased? you still haven't answered my that injustice :)
 
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Chunky Beagle

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Sacha you call Israel a terrorist state yet make no mention about the atrocoties that the majority of islamic states carry out.

Tens of millions of children are forced to embrace islam. If they don't they are threatened with violence and death.

Hundreds of millions of women are oppressed all in the name of islam.

Millions have been murdered in the name of islam.

Girls as young as 8 are married to much older men in arab states.

In Eygpt last year around 5000 young Christian girls were kidnapped and forced to marry muslim men, is this not an injustice?

You view Israel as a terrorist state from defending itself from being conquored by arab nations. Yet you have no problem with the horrors that many arab nations commit world wide every day?
 
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When israel build 70-150 illegal nuclear weapons (a war-hungry state bare in mind)

please though earl, why do you think I am racially biased? you still haven't answered my that injustice :)

WTF is an illegal nuclear weapon.:D

I could only define it as one made without the sanction of the government of a particular country failing that all nations that have nuclear weapons would have illegal ones.;)

I have empathy with all sides in the ME conflict,and do not support any particular nation .Western nations are just as responsible for the current situation as any other.

In fact I would say that the Wests treatment of third world countries is a perfect example of extreme racial prejudice.

I mean you are not going to see millions starving to death on the streets of Paris.?

Earl
 
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Sacha

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Sacha you call Israel a terrorist state yet make no mention about the atrocoties that the majority of islamic states carry out.

Tens of millions of children are forced to embrace islam. If they don't they are threatened with violence and death.

Hundreds of millions of women are oppressed all in the name of islam.

Millions have been murdered in the name of islam.

Girls as young as 8 are married to much older men in arab states.

In Eygpt last year around 5000 young Christian girls were kidnapped and forced to marry muslim men, is this not an injustice?

You view Israel as a terrorist state from defending itself from being conquored by arab nations. Yet you have no problem with the horrors that many arab nations commit world wide every day?

When did I say I had no problem with what Muslim nations do to their citizens? This topic is a discussion on the Israeli war machine - not arab atrocities. Why is it that I have to find a balance? this topic isn't called find a balance between israeli atrocities and muslim oppression is it.

Despite this I want to say I find your numbers questionable at best. Muslims are not bad people. Some of the safest places in the world for women are in Muslim countries. In my experience men in every other country can be as oppressive, no matter their religion. Domestic violence in England is worse than it is in Muslin nations.

Furthermore, as I stated, these arab nations you are detailing are mostly puppet American nations with corrupt leaders and police who are backed up by the west. It is my firm belief that if the Islamic world were ruled truly by themselves a lot of the issues that we are routinely told about in the west (true or not) would not be occurring - or at least be stamped out in time as they developed.

It is because these nations are ruled by individuals looking for their own glory or money that atrocities like your mention occur. Egypt and Saudi are prime examples of states ruled by western puppets with corrupt police to boot.

Islam is actually a very tolerant religion and historically was a lot more open minded and free than western nations. It is western stifling of the islamic world that is keeping it socially backward.

What a lot of western people don't understand is most issues we are told about in the news actually stem from the west - from either their oppression after 9/11 (which led to huge increase in the use of the hejjub for example) or their stifling of the islamic world which is keeping it in the middle ages (european nations at that time were a lot worse than arabs with underage marriage, kidnapping, etc.)
 
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Sacha

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WTF is an illegal nuclear weapon.:D

I could only define it as one made without the sanction of the government of a particular country failing that all nations that have nuclear weapons would have illegal ones.;)

I have empathy with all sides in the ME conflict,and do not support any particular nation .Western nations are just as responsible for the current situation as any other.

In fact I would say that the Wests treatment of third world countries is a perfect example of extreme racial prejudice.

I mean you are not going to see millions starving to death on the streets of Paris.?

Earl

Still not told me why I am racially biased then earl eh? lol I'll take your lack of response on this one as a manly apology. yo're one of my favourite regular members so i will forgive your offence to my pride which, had you been in my country, I would have been forced to provide you with 100 lashes for. ;)

an illegal nuclear weapon is a nuclear warhead developed by a country not sanctioned to build one by the nuclear non-proliferation treaty (anyone other than england, france, usa, china and russia). Israel not only illegally built nuclear weapons, but isn't a member of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty so hasn't signed anything saying it will use it in self defence only. this is no worse than north korea.

If you think it's alright for israel to build nuclear weapons then why is iran not allowed to build them?

Bare in mind that the only reason that we know about these weapons is because one of the scientists who helped build them came out with the story when he ran away from israel to england. the mossad then came to england and kidnapped this scientists from british protection off our soil, flew him out of england and he is still in israeli jail some 30 or whatever years later - for telling the world that israel had illegally built dozens of nuclear warheads.
 
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Friendly word here guys, one or two are attacking the person and not the argument. Please if we are going to keep this thread open, , show respect for the forum guidelines.

This is a very sensitive subject, and on every single occasion I have witnessed this topic being debated, it has resulted in name calling and thread removal.

I have yet to see it end otherwise.

My personal view is that we have two monsters in Israel & palestine. Until such time as Hamas drops their main aim of 'wiping out the state of israel', Israel will NEVER allow them any sort of freedom.

I think the israeli acts are deplorable, they as a state breached twice as many UN resolutions as iraq, yet remain at the top table. The simple fact is that Israel has the US in its pocket, and Hamas are playing right into their hands.

the INSTANT Hamas renounced violence, the rest of the world would turn on israel, but until such time, the israeli actions are seen to be largely justifiable.

The solution rests with hamas laying down the gun, and looking for a negotiated resolution. I fear that will never happen, and we might see Iran turn on Israel, and lord help us if iran fires their nukes at israel :(
 
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Chunky Beagle

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Islam is actually a very tolerant religion and historically was a lot more open minded and free than western nations. It is western stifling of the islamic world that is keeping it socially backward.

What a lot of western people don't understand is most issues we are told about in the news actually stem from the west - from either their oppression after 9/11 (which led to huge increase in the use of the hejjub for example) or their stifling of the islamic world which is keeping it in the middle ages (european nations at that time were a lot worse than arabs with underage marriage, kidnapping, etc.)

So answer me this - Why is islam spread with fear. Why can't children grow up and make there own decisions? Why can't other religions practice in arab nations? Why can't women wear what they want and have the right to choose who they marry?
 
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Sacha

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the INSTANT Hamas renounced violence, the rest of the world would turn on israel, but until such time, the israeli actions are seen to be largely justifiable.

The solution rests with hamas laying down the gun, and looking for a negotiated resolution. I fear that will never happen, and we might see Iran turn on Israel, and lord help us if iran fires their nukes at israel :(

This isn't true. Hamas has said it will stop violence on many an occasion. They even recently said they would enter peace talks with Israel if Israel stopped building illegal settlements on their land. Israel refused. Even though P. Obama and Biden demanded them to stop.

There was a cease fire not long ago. Israel attacked Palestine. You have to understand also that it isn't possible for Hamas to tell everyone to lay down their weapons. If my daughter had been killed by Israel, no one and I mean no one would stop me from doing what I cannot describe on these forums - I suspect chunky, sirearl and you yourself would do exactly the same. If Israel killed my daughter, or america, or china or any country I would do the same.

The point is a lot of terrorists acts against Israel are personal feuds for atrocities weeks, months, years ago. Israel then use disproportionate force in retaliation. What can hamas do after that? Turn the other cheek? They have to retaliate to defend their citizens.

Israel does not want to end violence, that is the point. They do not want to see peace. They do not want to share Jerusalem - they are wholly opposed to two states. They need more territory and they want more territory so they are using any excuse they can to continue expanding into illegally occupied land!! They are daily needlessly oppressing the Palestinian people, they are neglecting them water, food and other basic necessities (such as concrete). Palestinian children and suffering today because of Israel!

what do you guys not understand about this? israel even have plans drawn up for the third temple of Jerusalem with tens of millions of dollars reserved to build it on the site of the golden domed mosque the second holiest site in islam! They want to demolish it as they want to demolish all palestinian settlements! They want to kick out the palestinians because they see it as their divinely given land! despite the fact that Jews living in Israel (or palestine as it was historically called since the time of Julius Caesar) either left for greener pastures or converted to islam, or stayed put!! for thousands of years. Palestinians are the jewish descendants!
 
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Chunky Beagle

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Christian’s family murdered by Muslim mob - july 26th 2010

Pakistan (MNN) ― A Pakistani Christian mourns the loss of his family after a Muslim mob murdered his wife and four children, according to Compass Direct News.
Jamshed Masih, a police officer, moved his family to Mustafa Colony after he was transferred from Gujrat to Jhelum, Punjab Province.
When the predominantly-Muslim community learned of the family’s faith, Maulana Mahfooz Khan, a Muslim religious leader, approached Masih and told him and his family to leave, saying the community did not want “scum” in it. He said no non-Muslims had ever been able to live there and the residents feared the family would be a bad influence on their children.
Concerned, Masih shared these threats with the pastor of a local Presbyterian church, Saleem Mall. Mall also warned them of the danger and advised them to leave.
On June 21, Compass said Masih left for work, leaving his children singing hymns at home. Later that day, Masih’s wife sent one of their sons to the store for detergent. But when the shopkeeper asked if the boy was a Christian and he said “yes,” the shopkeeper refused to sell him anything and told him to never come back.
The boy returned home, relaying the events to his mother who called Masih, begging him to come home.
A short time later, a Muslim mob, led by Khan, arrived at the house, accusing him of blasphemy against Muhammad.
Before police or Masih arrived, the family was murdered.
Now, local authorities refuse to press charges against Khan and his mob because they fear what he will do to them.

This didn't make any mainstream news. This is the norm, what is expected in arab nations.

Could you imagine if this was a jewish or even christian family that commited these offences? The world outcry. But somehow the civilised world has come to expect this from arab nations.
 
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Sacha

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Is it not true that mohammed spread islam by the sword and married an 8 year old?

How can a religion that follows those morals survive in todays society?

It is true that mohammed spread islam by the sword and married a young girl. What you have to put into context is that he was in a very different age to ours, in a very different culture. when a girl begins to menstruate is when they were allowed to marry. As for the spread of Islam by the sword - back then you either lived by the sword or you died by the sword.


So answer me this - Why is islam spread with fear. Why can't children grow up and make there own decisions? Why can't other religions practice in arab nations? Why can't women wear what they want and have the right to choose who they marry?

I agree that Islam is a religion that is based on fear, fear of Allah rather than love of God (as in christianity). I think the use of fear (though love was also used) was to help harmonise and keep social order in a vast multi-racial empire. fear of the afterlife is very effective in keeping people in check from doing whatever they wanted and in developing an advanced society.

Children grow up to make their own decisions like they do in any other religion. One can say the same thing about American christians, thai buddhists, etc. Other religions are, and certainly were, very tolerated in arab nations. Much more so than in the west.

Women should be able to wear what they want because all it says in the koran is that they should cover themselves modestly (i.e. breasts and other private part). women should be able to marry whomever they want in real islamic law.
 
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Sacha

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But they are building them ,as would any country if that wanted to and had the technology.:D

Who or how can anyone stop them.?:|

I mean who stopped North Korea or the UK or the US.?:)

Earl

Israel will likely use a tactical nuke to stop them. que ww3 shortly thereafter. And everyone is trying to stop them, apart from China and the other axis of evil states I believe.

Chunky, I'm not going to bother to respond to your posts if all you can do is come up with a one off news article of a muslim attacking a christian. please man... if i could be bothered you know as well as I we'd be here forever posting competing articles about christian, jewish and islamic violence to each other. It doesn't really stop israel from being a terrorist state, oppressors who were the oppressed under a century ago.
 
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Israel will likely use a tactical nuke to stop them. que ww3 shortly thereafter. And everyone is trying to stop them, apart from China and the other axis of evil states I believe.

Right thats it I'm off to put another prawn on the Barbie.:eek::)

See ther you go again calling people names.Thats O'barmy's type of diplomacy .:rolleyes:

I suspect the US were part of the axis of evil during the Vietnam war.

Its all about where you are at and where you live.:)

Earl
 
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Sacha

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Right thats it I'm off to put another prawn on the Barbie.:eek::)

See ther you go again calling people names.Thats O'barmy's type of diplomacy .:rolleyes:

I suspect the US were part of the axis of evil during the Vietnam war.

Its all about where you are at and where you live.:)

Earl

What's so hard to believe about that? America and Israel has said as much: that they will consider using ground penetrating nuclear war-heads to stop Iran building nuclear weapons. it was even stated that it would cause negligible environmental damage because it would explode underground. oh and I wasn't saying china was in the axis of evil, just using your example of economy of time by grouping north korea, Venezuela and iran in together - clearly this economy of time tactic isn't very effective.
 
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What's so hard to believe about that? America and Israel has said as much: that they will consider using ground penetrating nuclear war-heads to stop Iran building nuclear weapons. it was even stated that it would cause negligible environmental damage .

Obviously the person who said that has never stood beside one when it went bang,:D

Now where did I put me tin hat.:|

Earl
 
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directmarketingadvice

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My personal view is that we have two monsters in Israel & palestine. Until such time as Hamas drops their main aim of 'wiping out the state of israel', Israel will NEVER allow them any sort of freedom.

I think the only end to this is going to be when one side wipes the other side out. There's too much bad blood and bad history for it to be any other way.

Chances are that it'll be the Arabs that wipe out the Isrealis - just based on the numbers.

However... I have a solution...

Israel is roughly 1/30th of the size of Texas. Why doesn't America sell some land to the Israelis so they can build a new country far away from the Middle East?

I realise some people will say "why should the Jews move, they're always being forced to move?".

To which my answer would be "if the alternative would be certain death, isn't it worth it?".

Steve
 
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Chunky Beagle

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I think the only end to this is going to be when one side wipes the other side out. There's too much bad blood and bad history for it to be any other way.

Chances are that it'll be the Arabs that wipe out the Isrealis - just based on the numbers.

However... I have a solution...

Israel is roughly 1/30th of the size of Texas. Why doesn't America sell some land to the Israelis so they can build a new country far away from the Middle East?

I realise some people will say "why should the Jews move, they're always being forced to move?".

To which my answer would be "if the alternative would be certain death, isn't it worth it?".

Steve

Or why not give them Scotland? I'm sure they'd make alot better use of the land than the natives.
 
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I think the only end to this is going to be when one side wipes the other side out. There's too much bad blood and bad history for it to be any other way.

Chances are that it'll be the Arabs that wipe out the Isrealis - just based on the numbers.

However... I have a solution...

Israel is roughly 1/30th of the size of Texas. Why doesn't America sell some land to the Israelis so they can build a new country far away from the Middle East?

I realise some people will say "why should the Jews move, they're always being forced to move?".

To which my answer would be "if the alternative would be certain death, isn't it worth it?".

Steve

Great shame the original settlement for the jews in Uganda was rejected.

I feel sure there would have been mutual benefit to all parties in that region and maybe even peace.

Earl
 
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directmarketingadvice

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Or why not give them Scotland? I'm sure they'd make alot better use of the land than the natives.

Yes, why not give Israel a different land that's already well-populated. That way, they can spend the next 50 years oppressing a different indigenous population.

That's a far better solution than moving to a land with large, barely populated areas.

Steve
 
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Chunky Beagle

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Not at all. Maybe your idea of humour is not what anyone else thinks is funny?

So let me ask you, why are you so angry towards my suggestion?

Steve

It is completly absurd.

Israel is the most advanced and civilised ME state, why should they have to move because of surriounding hostile, jealous arab nations?
 
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directmarketingadvice

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why should they have to move because of surriounding hostile, jealous arab nations?

I already gave an explicit - and very simple - answer to that question (in the post where I brought up this idea). If you didn't understand it then, I'd be wasting my breath trying to explain it to you.

Steve

Ps Earl's suggestion that you answered your own question, within your question, also makes the point.
 
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R

Rhyl Lightworks

It's all very well proposing high falluting political solutions, whether in jest or seriously, but it is the people on the ground that determine what happens. If you saw as a child, either in person, or in pictures beamed around the world, your parents being beaten up by a well armed army, what would your reaction be? I suspect you what not think of nuclear options, the rights or wrongs of the situation, etc., but would vow to fight to the death what you would see as unjustified aggression.

Barrie
 
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Palestinians are the jewish descendants!
Some clarification is needed here.

1) There is no such ethnic group as 'Palestinian'.

2) Before the turn of the 20th century, there was virtually no one living in the land that today we call Israel (read Mark Twain's journals).

3) When Balfour (cousin of Rudyard Kipling, by the way) made his famous declaration, neighbouring Arab states encouraged their citizens to settle the region in an attempt to stop the formation of Israel. That's where a big majority of Arab residents came from.

4) When Israel was declared a state, a coalition of Arab forces attacked. Those countries called on the Arab settlers to move out. Some did (and remain in refugee camps to this day). Others stayed, and have been an integral part of Israel since then.

Now, I might not like many aspects of history, and I may disagree with much of what has happened, but I hate propaganda and the rewriting of history even more. The line we hear all the time about Israel stealing the land of Palestine and herding Palestinians into refugee camps was a conscious propaganda story put out by Mr. Arafat and his team in the 1960s. It's quite amazing how many people around the world no longer know the truth of the matter. Misinformation is a large part of the problem there. Neither side serves its cause by promoting outright lies.

I don't mean to imply you meant to mislead, but I did think some clarification was needed - in particular that there's no such ethnic group as Palestinian.

And, yes, I have visited that region on several occasions. My heart goes out to the many innocents who suffer there. The poverty in some of the Palestinian regions is heart-breaking, and so is seeing an Israeli bus carrying children, of the type sometimes blown up.
 
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Sacha

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Some clarification is needed here.

1) There is no such ethnic group as 'Palestinian'.

The people's living in Palestine therefore are...?

True, after 1948 (or whenever) everyone started calling them Palestinians. But beforehand? beforehand they were called Palestinian Arabs.. wow big difference there right!

Before WW1 there was no such country as Iraq, Turkey or Saudi. They were one nation and one people but they did self-indentify themselves differently. The Palestinians, as we know them today, were part of the Muslim caliphate but they were in the palestinian area (there is ottoman administrative papers left terming palestine... you guessed it.... palestine) while a lot of other countries, like Iraq, was totally manufactured by the English/French! Not Palestine though!

So by your logic Iraqis are not Iraqis.

Ethnic identification is self imposed. The people of Palestine can call themselves Arabs, or they can call themselves Palestinians. Clearly they prefer the later, so who are we to say they don't exist?

In any case Palestine is an ancient name given to the area that encompasses Palestine and Israel today. It derives from the Philistines. The name was used even in ancient Egyptian times right through until today, despite being ruled by dozens of different peoples. The Israeli Orchestra was called the Palestinian Orchestra once, and I think a famous jewish paper was similarly called Palestinian Times (or the corresponding).

2) Before the turn of the 20th century, there was virtually no one living in the land that today we call Israel (read Mark Twain's journals).

This is complete bull I'm afraid. Palestine has been continuously populated from before recorded history! in 1860 there was approximately 500,000 people living in modern day palestine (possibly many more). Jerusalem also has always been populated. I have seen Palestinians on TV holding up documents of property they owned before Israel was declared a state which was demolished and now an Israeli home sits on his land!

3) When Balfour (cousin of Rudyard Kipling, by the way) made his famous declaration, neighbouring Arab states encouraged their citizens to settle the region in an attempt to stop the formation of Israel. That's where a big majority of Arab residents came from.

Lies spread by Zionists my friend. Find me proof from a non-Jewish source please.


4) When Israel was declared a state, a coalition of Arab forces attacked. Those countries called on the Arab settlers to move out. Some did (and remain in refugee camps to this day). Others stayed, and have been an integral part of Israel since then.

Again, where is thine source? I have never heard this before.
 
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The people's living in Palestine therefore are...?
Before Arab countries pushed settlers into the region (after the Balfour Declaration), it was almost all Druze (in the north) and Bedouins (all over). It was a wasteland. You can't call settlers who move for a few years 'Palestinians'.

True, after 1948 (or whenever) everyone started calling them Palestinians. But beforehand? beforehand they were called Palestinian Arabs.. wow big difference there right!
Nope. They were from Jordan and Syria and other countries. Today, we'd call them Jordanian and Syrian settlers. In their refugee camps, the honest name would be Jordanian and Syrian refugees. Calling them Palestinian is meaningless.

Before WW1 there was no such country as Iraq, Turkey or Saudi. They were one nation and one people but they did self-indentify themselves differently. The Palestinians, as we know them today, were part of the Muslim caliphate but they were in the palestinian area (there is ottoman administrative papers left terming palestine... you guessed it.... palestine) while a lot of other countries, like Iraq, was totally manufactured by the English/French! Not Palestine though!
Very true, but not relevant.

In any case Palestine is an ancient name given to the area that encompasses Palestine and Israel today.
Yes. It's a name promoted by the Romans.

It derives from the Philistines.
Yes. There's no 'p' in Arabic, so they call themselves Philistinians (something I learned on one of my trips there). Fascinating stuff.

This is complete bull I'm afraid. Palestine has been continuously populated from before recorded history!
Then you need to do a little reading. Mark Twain would make a good start. I agree there's little point in reading modern works because they are slanted one way or the other. There are so many colours in the story, it's rather difficult to know which to believe. Older books don't have those biases.

Lies spread by Zionists my friend. Find me proof from a non-Jewish source please.
I don't want to get into an argument on this topic. Previously, I was simply clarifying some issues that are often blown over because of various propaganda machines (from all sides). There are plenty of reliable sources of what happened in 1948 with the migrations, the war, and the refugees. The resources are out there for anyone who seeks to uncover the truth of the matter.

Sadly, your two sentences here reveal your purpose in writing. Personally, I try hard not to be biased, and visiting the region helps. I have no axe to grind, and I really feel sorry for the children of all sides caught in this conflict.
 
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Sacha

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http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf1.html

I found this website and it does back up a lot of what you are saying Steve - but still, it is a Jewish work. One point it makes that put doubt in my mind was when attempting to prove that Zionism isn't racist the website says that anyone can be a Zionist, Jewish or Non-Jewish... Sort of like saying that anyone can the the leader of the BNP no matter their background when really we know that's not true. So whether any of it is is true or not I don't know.

The thing is even if the Palestinians aren't as native as some of us have always thought, that still doesn't qualify for the Israeli state to perform a lot of the atrocities it commits and as that website states a lot of Arabs thought that Palestinians/Syrians/Jordanians would live in harmony with the supplanted Jewish population and learn from their expertise. somewhere something went wrong.

As for your book recommendation is it a worthy read?
 
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http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf1.html

I found this website and it does back up a lot of what you are saying Steve - but still, it is a Jewish work. One point it makes that put doubt in my mind was when attempting to prove that Zionism isn't racist the website says that anyone can be a Zionist, Jewish or Non-Jewish... Sort of like saying that anyone can the the leader of the BNP no matter their background when really we know that's not true. So whether any of it is is true or not I don't know.
Yes. Today, very few sources can claim to be truly objective. Indeed, most news channels have become promoters of commentary and opinions, telling us who will say what later in the day. How is that news? You're right to be suspicious of source, but one source can be balanced by other sources, and then you get a better picture.

The thing is even if the Palestinians aren't as native as some of us have always thought, that still doesn't qualify for the Israeli state to perform a lot of the atrocities
True, but atrocities have been committed on all sides. Of course, one group focuses on atrocities committed by Israel, while another group will focus on atrocities committed against Israel. It depends to which source or news channel we turn.

It's a very difficult, almost intractable, situation. It's the quiet stories not often publicized that give me hope: The Arab players on the Israeli soccer team, the Arab Israeli who saved a Jewish Israeli from drowning, a Jewish Israeli investment group funding Arab Israeli startups, and so on. Thankfully, below the surface, a lot of this goes on. Contrary to what we hear on the news, most of the people living there are decent human beings.
 
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Sacha

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But one side is in a lot better position than the other Steve.

You don't see Jewish children lacking food and water do you? You don't see Palestine building a wall around Israel or blockading essential products from entering Israel, like concrete? Palestine aren't building settlements on Israeli land are they?

Why should we root for the Israelis when they live comfortable lives while the Palestinians suffer on a daily basis without electricity. By being fair we should be demanding that Israel treat the Palestinian people fairly and justly. Being fair doesn't mean for every injustice Israel commits there surely must be an equal and opposing injustice Palestine committed? The world doesn't work the same way as does a BBC reporter.
 
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But one side is in a lot better position than the other Steve.

You don't see Jewish children lacking food and water do you?
That is a very good question! Huge amounts of money are sent to the Palestinian leaders, so where does it go? We can all guess!

As for blockades, yes there are some - but humanitarian groups, and Israel too, deliver a lot of food and medical equipment and utilities free of charge.

Israel has become a successful modern country for a few reasons:

1) The people work incredibly hard for the good of their nation
2) They have an open and democratic form of government
3) They have the structures of good government: justice system, free press, and so on
4) They have invested a huge amount in education
5) They have support from Jewish communities around the globe

If the money sent to the Palestinian authorities was spent in the same way, and if the people living in the Palestinian territories worked just as hard and invested just as much in education, they would thrive. They would have just as much support from Arab and Muslim communities around the globe. Instead, we all know what is taught in their primary schools - and it doesn't do anything to help the situation. There are thousands of small Israeli companies that lead their field, especially in advanced technology. Where are those companies among the Palestinian communities? Their people are just as smart and capable, so why are there none? It's a matter of leadership and having a vision for your country.

If ever you get the chance, walk the streets of Jerusalem and then walk the streets of Bethlehem. The contrast is striking in so many ways. In the latter, very many people are just sitting around doing nothing. If they had inspiring leaders who encouraged them to work hard for their own success, they would do well. But that's not the goal of their leaders.

Another anecdote is quite revealing. In Tel Aviv, you can see several Palestinian flags flying from housetops. They are tolerated. What do you think would happen to residents in one of the Palestinian towns if they flew an Israeli flag from their rooftop? An open society can tolerate such things. An oppressed society never will.

And that brings us full circle. A strong army can be supported only when it's underpinned by a strong economy. Focus on liberating and educating your people, and your power and influence will grow.
 
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It's a very difficult, almost intractable, situation. It's the quiet stories not often publicized that give me hope: The Arab players on the Israeli soccer team, the Arab Israeli who saved a Jewish Israeli from drowning, a Jewish Israeli investment group funding Arab Israeli startups, and so on. Thankfully, below the surface, a lot of this goes on. Contrary to what we hear on the news, most of the people living there are decent human beings.

Quite ,always astounds me how the hearts and minds of a country can be controled by half a dozen individuals at the top.:eek:

About time we stopped being tribal nations if the planet is to survive.IMHO

Earl
 
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Sacha

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Dec 23, 2009
296
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West Bromwich
That is a very good question! Huge amounts of money are sent to the Palestinian leaders, so where does it go? We can all guess!

As for blockades, yes there are some - but humanitarian groups, and Israel too, deliver a lot of food and medical equipment and utilities free of charge.

Right. Sorry I don't buy this.

Palestine does receive money from international donors but how can they utilise this money when basic equipment is not allowed to enter Palestine? How can they effectively build new schools, hospitals and develop a tolerant society when they are unable to trade freely either to import or export??

How can you insinuate that the Palestinians are wasting the money when they have rebuilt their territory umpteen times following Israeli invasions destroying roads, schools, factories and other buildings?? Israel only allow a fraction of what is actually need on the ground in Palestine to pass through their borders as the UN has continuously tried to tell the world.

3,500 items are not allowed in Palestine at all. I can't find a full list of this anywhere (coincidence?) but some of the items include livestock, sewage cleaning equipment, kitchen utilities and construction materials.

Seriously Steve what are you on about? Are you deluded man? I don't know what you have been told when you travelled through Israel but it doesn't add up to me man. It doesn't correlate with what is out there for us to read man.

Did you ever travel through Palestine? I don't think you can relate what it's like on the ground in Palestine by asking Israeli citizens, I'm sorry. They don't provide utilities free of charge because Palestinians don't have enough water (because Israel control all the rivers running through Palestine), don't have electricity (because power stations were destroyed by Israel and Israel do not allow construction material into Palestine), do not have a proper sewage system (again because of the black list), etc. etc. etc.


Israel has become a successful modern country for a few reasons:

1) The people work incredibly hard for the good of their nation
2) They have an open and democratic form of government
3) They have the structures of good government: justice system, free press, and so on
4) They have invested a huge amount in education
5) They have support from Jewish communities around the globe

If the money sent to the Palestinian authorities was spent in the same way, and if the people living in the Palestinian territories worked just as hard and invested just as much in education, they would thrive. They would have just as much support from Arab and Muslim communities around the globe. Instead, we all know what is taught in their primary schools - and it doesn't do anything to help the situation. There are thousands of small Israeli companies that lead their field, especially in advanced technology. Where are those companies among the Palestinian communities? Their people are just as smart and capable, so why are there none? It's a matter of leadership and having a vision for your country.

If ever you get the chance, walk the streets of Jerusalem and then walk the streets of Bethlehem. The contrast is striking in so many ways. In the latter, very many people are just sitting around doing nothing. If they had inspiring leaders who encouraged them to work hard for their own success, they would do well. But that's not the goal of their leaders.

I am not denying that the Israeli people have done very well for themselves, one reason you neglected is because they much feel grateful to be in Palestine, the holiest place in the world for them, while Palestinians (or whatever you want to call them) probably all want to go to the West or America. The same goes for Iran, all the smartest Iranians are in America and the UK. All the smartest Palestinians are abroad.

The thing is though, how can the money be 'spent in the same way' when they have been persecuted for the past 50 years Steve?? How can it be spent when they are in constant fear of being invaded again? I don't understand you man. You came across all open minded and fair, but to me it suddenly seems very clear that you are pro-israeli and why are you pro-Israeli? Because you spoke to people in Israel... Do you not know what they have done to the Palestinian people? Are you not aware of the wall they have built? Do you not know what the Israeli army does to the Palestinian people? Did you not see the new Israeli houses being built on Palestinian territory?

No wonder you think that the Arabs sent all the Palestinians in to push out the Israelis!!! I've really tried hard to find any evidence of that for the past few hours and it never happened man!! Some Israeli told you crap.

Read this link: http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

It's a brief history of the Israel, Palestine and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It's by far the most open minded account most of your theories about lack of indigenous palestinian population down the drain man.

Another anecdote is quite revealing. In Tel Aviv, you can see several Palestinian flags flying from housetops. They are tolerated. What do you think would happen to residents in one of the Palestinian towns if they flew an Israeli flag from their rooftop? An open society can tolerate such things. An oppressed society never will.

And that brings us full circle. A strong army can be supported only when it's underpinned by a strong economy. Focus on liberating and educating your people, and your power and influence will grow.

How is that revealing Steve? Do you not know about the children that have been killed by Israel? Do you not know about the parents beaten up by Israeli soldiers? The innocent family homes destroyed? Would you tolerate your next door neighbour flying the flag of the nation that murdered your children, destroyed your house, ruined your business and that causes you hunger, ill health and suffering on a daily basis??
 
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