What is it with these "work for free" trials?

[maxine]

Maxine...
Whats the latest news today... hope things worked out ok in the end

Thanks Tej

Well, he phoned up today and the manager was too busy to take his call so my nephew explained that he needed to talk about his shift this evening or he would not be turning up. I overheard him use the phrase "I think that doing 15 hours for a trial on washing up is too much".

He got a call back from someone else at the restaurant to say that he would get paid for the trial even though they don't normally do this. He then asked questions that he should have asked in the beginning about what the rate of pay was and she didn't know. And she advised he would get paid weekly in arrears.

He also said that he was only prepared to do 15 hours this week until they gave him a written letter setting out the details and until he has been paid for his first week and he explained that he could not come off his jobseekers allowance and run the risk of having no money at all.

So all seems fine. He has gone off to do his shift this evening.

But... He is really irritated about this now. I think he has really been stewing on not being able to get a straight answer and has got it into his head that they are going to let him down.

Don't get me wrong what I have said on here is one thing but to him I have been very upbeat and positve

I also did a credit check and it doesn't look good.

I am half expecting there to be some sort of a reason for him to walk out tonight as I think he is just looking for an excuse now to walk away.

 

[thebigIAM]

Aw. Good luck anyway, and thanks for the update.

One of my kids is autistic and his first pay packet for an agency was docked by 50%. I had an idea there was a legal maximum of 10% but I kept quiet because I would have preferred him to be out there doing something rather than on the playstation.

He, however, came to his own conclusions and didn't work an extra minute longer for this agency. It took him two years to find something else. He's stuck at the low paid something else for four years so far and has built up some impressive savings.

 

[maxine]

When we start to go down these bunny trails, regulation dictates everything: How many days in a trial? How many hours in a day? What can be done and what cannot be done? Does it include a lunch break? Does it include expenses? Is there a maximum number of trials a week? a month? a year? Is there a minimum age limit? Is there a maximum age limit? Is there a gender difference? Is there health and safety coverage? Can you sneeze? Far better is to use plain common sense. If someone doesn't work to work more than 4 hours on a trial, then don't volunteer for one. Honestly - what is the big deal? Have we forgotten that we're grown-ups?

No... we have forgotten it is not legal

 

[Cornish Steve]

Thanks Tej

Well, he phoned up today and the manager was too busy to take his call so my nephew explained that he needed to talk about his shift this evening or he would not be turning up. I overheard him use the phrase "I think that doing 15 hours for a trial on washing up is too much".

He got a call back from someone else at the restaurant to say that he would get paid for the trial even though they don't normally do this. He then asked questions that he should have asked in the beginning about what the rate of pay was and she didn't know. And she advised he would get paid weekly in arrears.

He also said that he was only prepared to do 15 hours this week until they gave him a written letter setting out the details and until he has been paid for his first week and he explained that he could not come off his jobseekers allowance and run the risk of having no money at all.

So all seems fine. He has gone off to do his shift this evening.

But... He is really irritated about this now. I think he has really been stewing on not being able to get a straight answer and has got it into his head that they are going to let him down.

Don't get me wrong what I have said on here is one thing but to him I have been very upbeat and positve

I also did a credit check and it doesn't look good.

I am half expecting there to be some sort of a reason for him to walk out tonight as I think he is just looking for an excuse now to walk away.

Just a note to say that IMO you're doing everything right with this young man: encouragement, support, reliability. As you point out, he's now asking those questions he should have asked at the very beginning and wants to see the answers in writing. He won't forget this. In the future, he'll know exactly how to handle things.

 

[Mya Tanark]

Thanks for the update Maxine. It is good to see that your nephew has strength of character and is able to assess the situation based on his own thoughts & convictions. I think he will be able to make the decision that he feels is right for him in the end.

Good luck to him.

 

[maxine]

Thanks Steve & Mya

Further update... he stayed the duration and in his words "worked his ass off" and came home with a free pizza (which was very nice by the way) lol

His trial is now over and he has a meeting with the manager at 4pm tomorrow so we shall see if it is thanks but no thanks or otherwise

Thanks for support everyone

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

Karl, you seem to react to every post I have made...

Richie,

I haven’t consciously or deliberately reacted to every post you have made, but given your position in & knowledge of the industry, I may (unintentionally) have picked up on your insight & the posts you’ve made; there is a wider discussion going on here about the need for regulation, but in respect of the actual practices you've mentioned are adopted in the industry, I’ve tried to clarify the law.

As Cornish Steve has mentioned, there are thousands of people registered at these forums, and I often do endeavour to highlight to business owners what the law actually is. If your posts have given me something useful to latch onto to highlight where employment law may be broken, I’ll respond & quote you (or anyone else) to assist readers.

It’s comments like

I do agree 16hrs is inappropriate for a working free trial, however this is down to the individual to speak up and suggest they can only do a lesser amount of time.
It is the industry norm, as I have said before that a working trial is part of the interview process in the catering industry.
I called a skills assessment as it's very similar, where the trial is used to assess the skills of the applicant.
I would say more or less any operational position in the industry would require a trial shift, some employers pay for this and others dont.

&

Every Chef or Waiter or Porter would be expected to do a free trial in order to get the job.
It's part of the interview process and you could call it an assessment but it is a working trial.
I think it's down to the individual whether or not they wish to work what is offered, most trials are usually 4-5 hours, anything more then it should really be paid for.

that expose something seriously wrong in the industry – although while I have some familiarity with the industry, this is not something I’ve ever seen or heard of before. For a chef to fillet a fish, or debone a rabbit during an interview process is one thing; to work a shift (or more) without even paid the minimum wage (particularly to demonstrate an ability to wash up) is quite another, and I would recommend to anyone in the industry that engages in this practice that it is only a matter of time that the law will catch up with them. It’s not anything more than 4-5 hours that should be paid, it’s anything more than a simple test as part of the interview to demonstrate an ability that should be paid. If the employee’s ability is later found to be wanting, they can be quickly dismissed, but employers cannot get away with free work trials as part of an assessment.


Karl Limpert

 

[yorkshirejames]

Thanks Steve & Mya

Further update... he stayed the duration and in his words "worked his ass off" and came home with a free pizza (which was very nice by the way) lol

To be fair, I think nice little touches like this go some way to soften the mind over what we all know is an illegal practice. Okay the pizza probably costs £10 and 16 hours at minimum wage is £80... but its better than nothing.

 

[maxine]

To be fair, I think nice little touches like this go some way to soften the mind over what we all know is an illegal practice. Okay the pizza probably costs £10 and 16 hours at minimum wage is £80... but its better than nothing.

Yeah (and my husband said they probably spat on it!) lol

 

[Richie N]

Richie,

I haven’t consciously or deliberately reacted to every post you have made, but given your position in & knowledge of the industry, I may (unintentionally) have picked up on your insight & the posts you’ve made; there is a wider discussion going on here about the need for regulation, but in respect of the actual practices you've mentioned are adopted in the industry, I’ve tried to clarify the law.

As Cornish Steve has mentioned, there are thousands of people registered at these forums, and I often do endeavour to highlight to business owners what the law actually is. If your posts have given me something useful to latch onto to highlight where employment law may be broken, I’ll respond & quote you (or anyone else) to assist readers.

It’s comments like
&
that expose something seriously wrong in the industry – although while I have some familiarity with the industry, this is not something I’ve ever seen or heard of before. For a chef to fillet a fish, or debone a rabbit during an interview process is one thing; to work a shift (or more) without even paid the minimum wage (particularly to demonstrate an ability to wash up) is quite another, and I would recommend to anyone in the industry that engages in this practice that it is only a matter of time that the law will catch up with them. It’s not anything more than 4-5 hours that should be paid, it’s anything more than a simple test as part of the interview to demonstrate an ability that should be paid. If the employee’s ability is later found to be wanting, they can be quickly dismissed, but employers cannot get away with free work trials as part of an assessment.


Karl Limpert

As mentioned it is down the applicant whether or not they decide to attend a trial.
You cannot assess a chef whether he is good or not just by filleting a fish, they need to be assessed during service times and this is where the trial comes in to it.
The trial also usually consists of an interview so it is part of the process.

 

[yorkshirejames]

As mentioned it is down the applicant whether or not they decide to attend a trial.
You cannot assess a chef whether he is good or not just by filleting a fish, they need to be assessed during service times and this is where the trial comes in to it.
The trial also usually consists of an interview so it is part of the process.

There is another way of looking at this. I couldn't pick a good accountant during a 45 minute interview. I would need to trial them doing a month end, doing a reporting period, then doing a quarter end, doing the VAT returns, and doing a year end, then doing the statutory accounts. This would take 11 months most probably. Would you send me a chap to work 45 hours a week on a free trial basis for 11 months please.

 

[Richie N]

There is another way of looking at this. I couldn't pick a good accountant during a 45 minute interview. I would need to trial them doing a month end, doing a reporting period, then doing a quarter end, doing the VAT returns, and doing a year end, then doing the statutory accounts. This would take 11 months most probably. Would you send me a chap to work 45 hours a week on a free trial basis for 11 months please.

A trial is usually a cook off. I never said I agree with this, I just stated it's the norm in the industry and if you can change it then you have my backing...
Another way looking at it, is that most interviews are usually 2 or 3 stages, which in total can add up to 5hours with testing or assessments etc, a trial is usually enough and rather than waste the applicants time and money going backwards and forwards to the employer, the interview is completed in one day.

 

[maxine]

Further update... my nephew went in for a meeting with the manager today at 5pm and was told that he had not got the job as he was not quick enough. The manager explained that they do not pay for training time which was the trial hours of 13 1/2 hours worked on the Saturday and Monday but he would pay him £25. (so this works out at £1.85 per hour) which then means that he is out of pocket by £40.20!

Good eh?

There was me thinking for a minute that this was industry norm and to show a bit of good faith. I don't believe for a minute he wasn't quick enough as he has worked for us as a plastering labourer which is very physical and he has always been quick and reliable.

So I am reverting back to my original view that this is nothing but a scam and these sorts of methods to rip off vulnerable people should be enforced a lot more.

I have thought about the comments made about people thinking for themselves and not doing it if they don't want to... it's their choice etc but I still firmly believe that if employers and agencies did not behave as if this was the norm then vulnerable people would not be duped.

Right then... where's that press release and ET1 form

 

[Richie N]

Further update... my nephew went in for a meeting with the manager today at 5pm and was told that he had not got the job as he was not quick enough. The manager explained that they do not pay for training time which was the trial hours of 13 1/2 hours worked on the Saturday and Monday but he would pay him £25. (so this works out at £1.85 per hour) which then means that he is out of pocket by £40.20!

Good eh?

There was me thinking for a minute that this was industry norm and to show a bit of good faith. I don't believe for a minute he wasn't quick enough as he has worked for us as a plastering labourer which is very physical and he has always been quick and reliable.

So I am reverting back to my original view that this is nothing but a scam and these sorts of methods to rip off vulnerable people should be enforced a lot more.

I have thought about the comments made about people thinking for themselves and not doing it if they don't want to... it's their choice etc but I still firmly believe that if employers and agencies did not behave as if this was the norm then vulnerable people would not be duped.

Right then... where's that press release and ET1 form

Maxine, you mention agencies but agencies act on client's instructions and are not involved with this situation.
If I was requested by a client that a candidate of mine had to do a trial that long given to your nephew, then I would argue his case and get the trial to a minimum amount of time and if it was for this length of time then I would request they pay for it or go via an agency as a temporary worker.
This is where the benefit of using an agency comes into it, as an agency acts as a representative in order to ensure both parties are happy with the working conditions and interview process.

My advice would be to write a letter detailing the hours worked and request payment suitable for that.
If you still feel this is unfair and they refuse to pay, then report them.

 

[Hattey]

I don't think that is right at all!! It doesn't take 13 1/2 hours to work out the washer upper isn't fast enough!

Do you fancy a meal out this week Maxine?

 

[maxine]

Richie

I agree with what Karl said before about you giving a really useful insight into the industry you work with. I would not have known that this was perceived by those within the industry to be the norm and I wouldn't have known about the legal side without Karl's input.

What should be for every employer a process of 1) Interview 2) Job offer subject to a "trial period" and 3) Get rid of the person if not suitable for every other industry on this planet seems to have been bent to suit catering for 1) Work for free for however long that employer decides 2) If no good then no job offer or 3) If good enough then make the job offer after having a period of free work.

If as an agency or as an employer this is referred to as the norm in any capacity at all then it is misleading and mistreating people in my view.

It's like me saying that I am allowed to go and rob peoples houses.

Obviously I am not as it is against the law and the only reason people don't believe me when I say that is because they know about this legal rule.

For these work for free trials, people do not realise that they are illegal... look at the comments on this thread so if anyone like my nephew was offered this kind of arrangement I'm afraid they probably would not know any better and would unfortunately trust what the employer or the agency said.

I don't mean to direct this at you in particular I am just making the point that I think we all have a responsibility to knock this sort of practise on the head

 

[maxine]

I don't think that is right at all!! It doesn't take 13 1/2 hours to work out the washer upper isn't fast enough!

Do you fancy a meal out this week Maxine?

Don't. Just don't. You would get me into far too much trouble

He did a Saturday night which was the busy night so you would think that would test his speed, yet he did a shift on Monday which was the quiet night and he came home early coz he finished early.

Anyway.. primarily my nephew is my prime concern

 

[Richie N]

Richie

I agree with what Karl said before about you giving a really useful insight into the industry you work with. I would not have known that this was perceived by those within the industry to be the norm and I wouldn't have known about the legal side without Karl's input.

What should be for every employer a process of 1) Interview 2) Job offer subject to a "trial period" and 3) Get rid of the person if not suitable for every other industry on this planet seems to have been bent to suit catering for 1) Work for free for however long that employer decides 2) If no good then no job offer or 3) If good enough then make the job offer after having a period of free work.

If as an agency or as an employer this is referred to as the norm in any capacity at all then it is misleading and mistreating people in my view.

It's like me saying that I am allowed to go and rob peoples houses.

Obviously I am not as it is against the law and the only reason people don't believe me when I say that is because they know about this legal rule.

For these work for free trials, people do not realise that they are illegal... look at the comments on this thread so if anyone like my nephew was offered this kind of arrangement I'm afraid they probably would not know any better and would unfortunately trust what the employer or the agency said.

I don't mean to direct this at you in particular I am just making the point that I think we all have a responsibility to knock this sort of practise on the head

As I said earlier to Yorkshire James;

Another way looking at it, is that most interviews are usually 2 or 3 stages, which in total can add up to 5hours with testing or assessments etc, a trial is usually enough and rather than waste the applicants time and money going backwards and forwards to the employer, the interview is completed in one day.

I understand what you are saying but your nephew shouldn't have really agreed to the trial without knowing if he would be paid or the amount he would be paid prior to working those hours.
He should have really got this in writing prior to completing the trial and I am sure he has learned a valuable lesson by this.

Please also bear in mind I don't place kitchen porters, I place Chefs and those are required to do a working trial interview, which shows their skills and ability to cope with service. Some call it a skills assessment and others may call it a cook off, it's all part of the interview process.
Any kitchen porters we supply are hired as a temp.

 

[Hattey]

Anyway.. primarily my nephew is my prime concern

And so he should be!

I just think he has worked the hours and he should be paid for them, more than £1.85 & a free 'spat on' Pizza anyway!

Good luck to him and I hope he finds something soon and doesn't get demoralised or demotivated over this first hurdle!

 

[maxine]

But Richie, you wouldn't have a 2 or 3 stage interview for a washing up position. Maybe half an hour to an hours conversation at most.

And he was told he would be paid originally and only when he turned up was he told by a duty manager that he wouldn't be and it is natural to assume it was in line with national minimum wage as a minimum and a verbal contract just as good as a written one.

Can you honestly say with your experience of the industry that if he had a phone call on a Friday to come in for a trial shift on a Saturday as a washer upper that he should have said not until I get it in writing from you? He took a gamble with whether it would work out and lead to longer term employment but he should not have had to take a gamble that it was illegal.

 

sounds like they needed a cheap washer for the weekend to me maxine.
the cheeky tw*ts,they are just plain wrong doing this to people.
hope you kick up a stink !

 

[Matt1959]

you could always send someone else in for the "position" . If the same thing happens again, you know its dodgy but then I think you know that it is anyway....

 

[KDMINX]

If the same thing happens again, you know its dodgy.

It's Dodgy! Make a claim under minimum wage regs.

As I say, I'm all for work trials, if they're no good, give them the news halfway through their first shift and pay them £20.

 

[Richie N]

But Richie, you wouldn't have a 2 or 3 stage interview for a washing up position. Maybe half an hour to an hours conversation at most.

And he was told he would be paid originally and only when he turned up was he told by a duty manager that he wouldn't be and it is natural to assume it was in line with national minimum wage as a minimum and a verbal contract just as good as a written one.

Can you honestly say with your experience of the industry that if he had a phone call on a Friday to come in for a trial shift on a Saturday as a washer upper that he should have said not until I get it in writing from you? He took a gamble with whether it would work out and lead to longer term employment but he should not have had to take a gamble that it was illegal.

I never said a porter requires 2 or 3 stage interview, I am talking generalist here.
I am not defending them either, as he should get paid for that amount of time worked.
As I suggested earlier, write a letter and request payment for the full amount of hours worked, especially address it to the person who told him he would get paid originally.

Just to mention as well, applicants do usually get the choice of attending an interview first followed by a trial, most choose to do the two in one day to get the interview over with in one go. Also, with this they are usually given immediate feedback rather than waiting days, if not weeks for the outcome.
No one forces applicants do to these trials, it is up to the individual whether they choose to or not but also gives them an insight into the kitchen whether or not they like working there before starting work.
So it is in the benefit of both parties they see how the kitchen operates.
I am speaking from chefs here, not kitchen porters.

I have no further input to add....

 

[hendyphilhendy]

This sounds very dodgy to me. It is quite a clear case of employers taking advantage of weaker minded individuals and you are right to stick up for your nephew.

Having read through the whole thread I would definitely recommend you put the EFT claim and press release out there!

 

[thebigIAM]

Are we allowed to name and shame the establishment on here?

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

Are we allowed to name and shame the establishment on here?

If I'm invited to take on the case & given the claimant's authority to issue a press release, I will be delighted to do that, and would certainly seek to get an audience for the press release!

The most important thing though is to remember that, while wanting to get a level playing field for businesses & 'out' these unscrupulous employers, there is a young, vulnerable man at the heart of this, and he has to be treated as a lot more than a pawn in this process; his feelings & interests have to be the first concern.



Karl Limpert

 

[yorkshirejames]

Maxine - Karl has probably offered already, but I'd be more than pleased to look over an ET1 for you prior to submitting it.

Be wary of press though. They will say "nephew wasn't good/quick enough" - and given you live in a smallish town you don't want that getting around.

 

[maxine]

Are we allowed to name and shame the establishment on here?

It might be a bit more fairer to give the establishment an opportunity to cough up his minimum wages and take stock of what has happened first as there is a chance that they didn't know this was unfair/illegal if it is an industry norm

If I'm invited to take on the case & given the claimant's authority to issue a press release, I will be delighted to do that, and would certainly seek to get an audience for the press release!

The most important thing though is to remember that, while wanting to get a level playing field for businesses & 'out' these unscrupulous employers, there is a young, vulnerable man at the heart of this, and he has to be treated as a lot more than a pawn in this process; his feelings & interests have to be the first concern.

Karl Limpert

Karl... fill your boots It's all yours to do with what you will (prob need to have a chat first). My nephew is absolutely fine and has come out of this with confidence intact. He was very down and depressed yesterday but he has had a good talking to by various people.

He also went for an interview as a cleaner at a hospital and got offered the job today subject to a 2 hour trial... and the first thing he did was to ask if he was getting paid!! lol (mission accomplished) They said of course and they would not rip him off as it would be illegal not to pay, plus the pay is £6 per hour which is more than NMW for his age of £4.83 and it's £9 per hour on a Saturday so he is a very happy chappy indeed at the moment.

Maxine - Karl has probably offered already, but I'd be more than pleased to look over an ET1 for you prior to submitting it.

Be wary of press though. They will say "nephew wasn't good/quick enough" - and given you live in a smallish town you don't want that getting around.

Thanks for the offer As for press, I guess that's inevitable but if it helps prevent someone else being used as an unpaid skivvy for a weekend and to improve employers awareness then good in my opinion. He doesn't care about smallish town and has got over his initial confidence blip

Thanks again everyone

 

[Tom McClelland]

Any half-sensible potential employer will see the "not good/quick enough" line as a lie. If he wasn't good enough then they'd have picked that up after the *first* busy trial shift. Or in fact within the first hour. There is no reason for them not to pay him (or anyone else on a trial like this) for the full time that he was present. This wasn't the kind of process where professional skill has to be demonstrated.

The whole thing was just a scam to get some cheap/free washing up done. They never had the slightest intention of taking him on.

A good lesson learned. When going for this kind of trial establish the parameters at the start of the trial. Even if not in writing find out what the manager's intentions are, face to face, including the actual pay rate, before you start, not after you've done 15 hours work.

 

[KDMINX]

It's a cold hard world out there. We all need to learn that for ourselves we cannot be taught it.

I think that the person in question will be fine. Anybody willing to wash dishes for 15 hours will not be short of work for long.

Too many people sit at home (on benefits that are *FAR* too generous) complaining about how there are no jobs out there when, in fact, there are plenty of jobs for those willing to work and aren't too fussed as to what they do.

 

[maxine]

Thanks Tom and KDMINX... He was up at 4am to walk 1/2 hour to start a shift for 5am but when he got there they were not expecting him so he has to do the same again tomorrow... but he is very happy and prepared to do what he needs to do to get a job. Like you say KDMINX there are jobs out there if people want them enough.

 

[Rainbow Chasers']

The hospitality trade has always been a low wage payer, when minimum wage came in, they found a 'back door' - they call it 'Training Wage'. This allows them to pay a lower wage for a period of training/assessment.

By the nature of many of these businesses being seasonal - it works well for them. 6 month seasons, high staff turnover etc.

As has been said, at least he has found a job, albeit poor pay at the moment. It may be an idea for him to save as much as he can, and invest this in his own future by training for a trade. If he has a look around and decides what he wants to do, he could buy his own course training as either a plumber, computer programmer etc. He would have a target to meet, and a reason to go to work!

At least that way - he is working for something, and the time isn't wasted - just used as a stepping stone!

 

[maxine]

The hospitality trade has always been a low wage payer, when minimum wage came in, they found a 'back door' - they call it 'Training Wage'. This allows them to pay a lower wage for a period of training/assessment.

By the nature of many of these businesses being seasonal - it works well for them. 6 month seasons, high staff turnover etc.

As has been said, at least he has found a job, albeit poor pay at the moment. It may be an idea for him to save as much as he can, and invest this in his own future by training for a trade. If he has a look around and decides what he wants to do, he could buy his own course training as either a plumber, computer programmer etc. He would have a target to meet, and a reason to go to work!

At least that way - he is working for something, and the time isn't wasted - just used as a stepping stone!

Good point you make about seasonal free work

The plan at the moment is for him to go to college in September to do a painting and decorating course and we will take him on as an apprentice (can't take him on as plumbing as we already have enough people). He is saving his money at the moment for driving lessons as first priority (which is what some of that other money was for) and he does seem to be quite focused and motivated (at the moment.. you know what teenagers are like) and we are getting him to help us out in our business with bits and pieces like leaflet drops etc where we can (and paying him of course!).

 

[Rainbow Chasers']

Sounds like a plan - get him into painting and dec, you have your plumbers, by the time he is qualified, you could have a nice lil property development partnership on the go!

Just keep him away from beer and women! Nothing saps your savings like that! lol! We have all done it when young!

While he is on a budget, it might be worth getting him into financial forecasts etc. Sounds droll to a teenager, but will help him budget, and it will be easier when he is self employed!