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What are your thoughts on Brexit?

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RPower

RPower

Free Member
Oct 15, 2012
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Bristol
Morning all,

I was hoping you could lend me your insights into what you think of a potential EU exit? I spotted a survey this morning which said a third of small businesses would like to remain within the EU.

They also called for a reduction in business tax rates and for the government to sort out late payments, in addition to a simplified PAYE system.

But what do you think - and why?

Rachael
 
The undemocratic nature of the EU political union is the clincher for me. Dictatorships never end well, and as a citizen of the country that founded parliamentary democracy, I resent out govt being handed over to an undemocratic foreign power.

We do not need to be in a political union to trade with European countries, nor them with us.
 
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Thanks for your comment KM-Tiger!

So you're very much for an exit then - are you operating as a small business, if you don't mind me asking?
 
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But apparently the existence of the EU has prevented war in Europe since, well, the last one. And the Euro has prevented a collapse in European Trade while only slightly stiffing the southern economies, well, a bit more than slightly in the case of Greece. And Spain. And Italy.

And as 12 out of every 10 economists (sic) agree that Brexit would be a disaster, with some of them disagreeing with themselves, and the cocky jocks wanting to stay, we need a new nelogism: Engxit or something.

Which, to borrow from "1066 and all that" would be a good thing.
 
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Nuno said:
It isn't Scotland's oil, so the union would be in much the same place.

Please remember: you lost the Independence vote. You were not independent before it and you aren't now.
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And while we're on, please remember you get more of a subsidy per head vs. the rest of the UK (free prescription anyone?)....so purlease...
 
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given that Scots represent 8.4 per cent of the UK's total population, but we generate 9.4 per cent of its annual revenues in tax - then it would only be right that we got more per head.
 
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Hammur IT said:
given that Scots represent 8.4 per cent of the UK's total population, but we generate 9.4 per cent of its annual revenues in tax - then it would only be right that we got more per head.
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Are you arguing that any poor region should only get the tax revenues it raises? And any rich region should get to keep all the revenue it raises?
Basically an argument for letting the poor starve. Good chap. Now we know where you stand on things.
 
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I personally do not think that leaving the EU will do much harm. It will mean that we do not have some of the big brother rules and regulations, but that will not change over night. Business with other EU countries will not stop. We will still need them as much as they need us. Most of our imports come from outside the EU and lots of our exports go to outside the EU.

It currently is a lot of speculation as no one really knows what is going to happen. There are those that said we would have a close election and a coalition again. No one knows for sure.

I do think that maybe its time that England had a vote on whether it wanted to keep Scotland. If they do get more powers over Scottish affairs I do hope they get less control over England only affairs as they cant have it all. What ever happens it does show that regardless of a in/out vote no one is taking any notice of the result, especially the scots.
 
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Surely if the plan is to stop Scottish MPs having a say on purely English matters - rightfully so in my opinion - it begs the question of just what a Scottish MP will do in London? With Scotland by-and-large accounting for a small percentage of any "British" matter, however you measure it, what exactly will constitute something being "English" or "British" - and who will make the rules/decisions on this?

Lines on maps really thoug lads. I'll always be Scottish. You'll always be English. And the only thing Made in Britain are Stoves!!

The business implications, either way, will be interesting.
 
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:eek: Interesting how a question about leaving the EU has turned into an issue over Scotland remaining in the UK. Is this symbolic of where the strongest sentiments lie in the UK vis-a-vis any form of trade/political separation/isolation?
 
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KM-Tiger said:
One day it will occur to them to wonder where the money really comes from.
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I realise this is an EU debate, so I was hesitant on commenting on this, but oh well.

Scotland put's in a higher % of taxes into the pot than it receives from Westminster. That is a 100% undeniable fact. Surely you, or anyone else for that matter, is bored of trying to argue against this?

As for the EU - I hope the UK leaves, or at least votes to leave. That will be the moment needed to get a second referendum vote so us Scots can get away from the tories once and for all, and then stay in the EU.
 
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Does that higher % of tax include the tax on oil? If so, it doesn't count as a Scottish tax.
Will you answer? Do you know? I doubt it in both cases.

As for butting in an an EU thread it's like the joke: How can you tell if someone is Scottish? You don't have to, they'll tell you in the first 10 seconds.
Yawn.
 
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Walkol said:
I realise this is an EU debate, so I was hesitant on commenting on this, but oh well.

Scotland put's in a higher % of taxes into the pot than it receives from Westminster. That is a 100% undeniable fact. Surely you, or anyone else for that matter, is bored of trying to argue against this?

As for the EU - I hope the UK leaves, or at least votes to leave. That will be the moment needed to get a second referendum vote so us Scots can get away from the tories once and for all, and then stay in the EU.
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I'm wondering why you're on a UK Business Forum when you obviously don't want to be part of the UK?
 
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Thanks for all your comments! Really interesting debate and I suppose Scotland is linked in a way. I guess there's also a wider question as to what the impact would be on other countries within (and without) the UK, such as Wales, Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland.

But with everything being simply political speculation at the moment I suppose we won't know until at least 2016!
 
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Behave children. :D

Speaking for myself I'm all in favour of leaving the EU. On balance I really can't see it's done us any favours, if anything it's just been an expensive bureaucratic nightmare.

I'm a small business owner - Sole Trader.
 
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KM-Tiger said:
The undemocratic nature of the EU political union is the clincher for me....

We do not need to be in a political union to trade with European countries, nor them with us.
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So what will change. You'll get the current democracy every 5 years where the politicians make extravagant promises to win your vote. They then rack up even more debt to fulfill the unaffordable promises that they either wanted to keep or feel they need to, to keep up the illusion of being faithful to their message. Then all those empty promises that they never intended to fulfill get discarded along with democracy. If anybody disagrees with what they then do, its a problem of them not getting their message across to the dumb electorate.

Trading into Europe will be a lot more expensive outside the EU. Check any courier's delivery prices. All countries outside the EU have a £25 surcharge (DPD, other couriers similar amounts) for customs clearance. Parcel to Germany about a tenner, to Norway or Switzerland its over £40 - which is why online businesses sell little to those countries). And that includes Norway and Switzerland. So our one success story, online sales to Europe (not down to any great sales skill, but the advantage we have in speaking English - English language websites get the bulk of the traffic from people looking for better deals outside their own country because they're far more likely to speak English than any other language - Even Poles are far more likely to Speak English even though they're next door to Germany), is going to suffer big time. Some say that the lower pound will mean that we can export our way to success - fat chance. The pounds down over 25% against the dollar over the last few years - a massive currency advantage - yet exports have not increased by anything like the levels you would expect.

Most marked will be the reduction of the money in your pocket due to higher prices. Almost everything has a cost element that is defined in dollars. The pounds already dropping and is expected to drop a lot more if we vote to leave. Your petrol will be more expensive, your electricity bill be more expensive, almost everything you buy will be more expensive, and your flights and overseas holidays will be more expensive.
 
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silvermusic said:
Behave children. :D

Speaking for myself I'm all in favour of leaving the EU. On balance I really can't see it's done us any favours, if anything it's just been an expensive bureaucratic nightmare.

I'm a small business owner - Sole Trader.
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What we've gained in trade and relative stability outweighs the costs by far. It will cost us a great deal more when the pound continues its already substantial devaluation if we leave. Everything priced in dollars has already seen a 10 cent loss in the pound against the dollar, and we haven't even left yet.
 
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Nuno said:
Are you arguing that any poor region should only get the tax revenues it raises? And any rich region should get to keep all the revenue it raises?
Basically an argument for letting the poor starve.
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I thought from your removed post that you were in favour of out, yet here you seem to be making the argument for in - we shouldn't want out so we don't have to help the poorer nations and can keep the extra cash for ourselves (and as we know from Norway's example the cost of keeping free trade is the same as being in, so there's no saving anyway).
 
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For what it is worth, on the original topic, my thoughts are that the talk about bureaucracy, red tape and democracy are misplaced and that Brexit would not achieve what it's supporters want anyway.

As a business owner in the UK and EU I have to say that I feel that I have pretty much complete freedom to run my business as I like. There is precious little red-tape. What bureaucracy and red tape exists comes from HMRC and Westminster and not from the EU. I would not want to run a business without decent employment and health and safety laws anyway. If we leave the EU then all of these regulations will remain the same. Remember that the UK is always the most enthusiastic driver of EU laws and also that Westminster is very enthusiastic about translating these into UK laws.

On the related point about democracy, we live in a democracy as do all other EU citizens. The EU sometimes appears to be undemocratic because our duly elected politicians out-source to the EU the legislation that they know we need but that they don't want to get grief from their constituents and lobbyists about. This is the source of the myth about EU driven red tape, we would have that red tape anyway and always will in the future irrespective of membership of EU. In the end we are still in a democracy, always will be and we have some minimal red-tape, always will.

Not that the EU is perfect. I would like to see much more of the H2020 and ERDF budget going to SME's and rather than large companies. I would also limit the size of the consortia that win these contracts, large consortia lead to old boys clubs that monopolise the funding. But I am immensely thankful for the free market and the free movement of people. All in all we need free trade and free movement of workers to do business. The best thing for the UK is to stay in the EU.

Last point: If UK leaves the EU my feeling is that we will have some, hopefully minor, extra barriers to free trade but likely no extra barriers to movement of workers at all. The migration discussion will slide off the agenda. If your personal motivation for voting brexit is to prevent movement of EU workers to UK then my feeling is that brexit is unlikely to facilitate this. The economy needs workers, all kinds, qualified hard to find workers and cheap unqualified workers, the government knows this. My guess is that the business lobby groups and above all the Treasury will make sure that we keep our borders open.
 
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krupuk said:
So what will change. You'll get the current democracy every 5 years where the politicians make extravagant promises to win your vote..
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But that's is the point...we (the electorate can kick the UK Government out via the ballot box)...we can't with the EU leaders....with the present EU you've got a top level structure akin to FIFA (irreproachable)....but without the footie.
 
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On the subject of democracy no one in the UK have ever voted to join the EU or to give the EU powers over the UK. That was all done by politicians. The only thing the public voted on was the European Community. So the whole thing started on a very undemocratic footing in my opinion.

The laws created in the EU are not created by our elected MEP's, they are created by a body of people no one voted for, are totally unaccountable and we cant get rid of. MEP's act as House of Lords in that they can send laws back for amendments etc, but they cant actually write laws. Getting even less democratic in my opinion.
 
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I personally find this whole EU Referendum lark, a lesson in pointlessness.

Honestly neither side, has been able to convince me of the merits of either way. The statesman put forward by both sides lack any credibility and their arguments are worthless.

In my view, the Brexiters are akin to Trump in that their arguments boil down to nothing more than Wall Building . Basing the arguments on Sovereignty and some outdated notion that Britain should somehow have a special place in the world, mostly based on nothing else than it's because we're British.

I found it ironic, when Boris Johnson went for the Godwin point in the debate and brought the Nazi's into it. Citing that somehow the EU is actually Germany's masked attempt of reigniting the Charlemagne reich dream. As I continued to read, I found the rest of his argument started make the sound of black boots and brown uniform noises!

The argument that foreigners are coming here and stealing British jobs from British workers, just doesn't have any form of validity. In my opinion, it is truly are rare art form to be unemployed in Britain today. The fact that is further cemented by the fact that a Foreigner can travel 100's or even 1000's of miles to a country where the possibly have no contacts, learn the language of the country and is able to find employment by a British registered company, whose owner or managers may be British, who may have made the decision to choose the foreigner. I don't think the EU held any guns to the decision makers head forcing him to make the decision. The last time I checked, there doesn't appear to be any EU mandated legislature forcing business owners to employ foreigners?

I really don't buy into the argument that, we will be able to negotiate better trade deals with other countries based on that we're out of the EU. I don't for one minute think any of the EU nations will want to negotiate any better deals with us, than what we already receive from being in the EU.

As far as negotiating better deals with other nations outside of the EU well I would have to say there are some already very thin pickings there. We're already negotiating with the most viable nations as it is.

Hubert said:
As a business owner in the UK and EU I have to say that I feel that I have pretty much complete freedom to run my business as I like. There is precious little red-tape. What bureaucracy and red tape exists comes from HMRC and Westminster and not from the EU
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I completely agree with this statement. The most pointless and time consuming legislature I have to deal with as a business owner here, is in fact from from HMRC and Westminster. IR35 etc. None of this comes from the EU.

The fact that most of the biggest customers I have dealt with over the years, have all been European Based companies and I have been able to freely supply services to these companies with little to no impact, other than supplying my UK VAT no, and some box ticking on their side.

I have to laugh at all these so called celebrities who are all based outside the UK, flying in here and telling us we should vote leave, only to fly out and go live in their Tax Haven of choice!

If we are to leave, then it appears that this will only be signal to the other "home nations", to up their rhetoric and intensify the debate with an aim of breaking away from the UK, just so that they can apply to join the EU. Where does our Sovereignty get us then?

This whole debate has been pointless and futile from the very beginning, I truly think that the best the British people can do in this case is to not bother casting a ballot, or their should of been another box on the ballot paper, with the option "I really don't care"
 
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Why wouldnt we be able to negotiate deals with the EU or any other country?

We are the 5th biggest economy in the world and we have been in the 4th to 6th region since at least the 50's (I havent seen data from before then). We did that without the help of the EU who didnt come along until 93. So I cant see us falling from that position.

Germany for example is not going to want to stop selling cars in to the UK, France is not going to want to stop selling its food and cars to us and so on. We buy far more from them than they do us, so to cut us off would mean doing more damage to themselves than us.

On the flip side what trade deals do the EU have to offer us. Firstly we have the open market place which is a big tick, but it does not necessarily go away if there is there a Brexit. Secondly we have the trade deals in the pipeline and none of them are good for the UK

The first deal to worry about is TIPP which is going to let the Americans run rampant through our market places. We are giving American corporations the right to sue our governments for any perceived impacts on their profits should our government lock them out of a market (e.g. the NHS or running local councils)

Then secondly they are looking at giving China special international trading status. That means they will also be given far greater access to our economy. We have seen what they can do to our steel industry with limited access to our market place, imagine what they could do with greater freedoms in every sector. It will be carnage - all the work that is being put in to the steel works will be for nothing. Other sectors will go to the wall as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-36446381

To me, the riskier trade deal situation is inside the EU not outside.
 
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Carl "Excel-Expert" Nixon said:
EU who didnt come along until 93.
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Try 73 , the EU as an entity only came into being 93, but the EEC and Britain joining that happened in 73.

There you go banging on like the rest of them about Germany and France wanting to sell us cars! Yawn! Yawn Yawn! Absolute garbage

Only 2 of the Big Six Utility companies are actually "British" owned. Of which I would love to see the percentage which is actual British Money?

To me, it's riskier having this pointless debate than it is not!
 
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Regardless of when you want to start the clock ticking on the EU, the UK have constantly been the 4th-5th biggest economy in the world. Having done some digging this goes back over a century and includes a period where Britain was repaying its war debts (a huge drain on the economy)

You may think its garbage but the fact is Britain is currently Germany's biggest trade partner (regardless of if it is cars or sausages being bought or sold). So what would be Germany's incentive to cut or even reduce that trade? Especially as we buy more from them than we sell to them. The only thing that could possibly achieve is damage to their own economy and create job losses. Similar story with France and the other main EU countries.

Do you think the fact that 4 of our 6 big utility companies being foreign owned may have been contributed to by having such on open marketplace? Would the French be building nuclear power stations here if we were outside the EU? We will never know the answer to that but it has to be a contributing factor.

Do you see a big risk in letting the Americans and the Chinese have so much free access to our economy? Keeping in mind that the Chinese have had a deliberate steel dumping policy to kill off competition. A plan that is working right across the EU and has only failed in the US because of 550% tariffs. They will apply the same techniques to other industries soon enough and we will see even more mass redundancies.

The TIPP agreement is being done in totally secrecy, no one knows its real contents other than the enormous powers it will give the US. Such big powers the UK has been left scrambling to protect the NHS from it.
 
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Do you honestly believe that the legion of bumbling oafs, that huddle together in a palace in Westminster would be able to negotiate any better deals?

I have zero confidence in any of them! I think our political system is broken and is in dire need of some modernization and out the box thinking.

Holding a referendum, in which if the result is a Leave, will effectively take our political system back, possibly a century or two. It may even alienate trading partners.

I for one am very proud of Britain's place in the world and I am proud of Britain's position in Europe. I think Britain should have a bigger say in Europe and we should have greater influence. We should be working on that more.

Our broken political system has nothing to do with EU.

Please don't try and cast the blame for the NHS failing onto the EU. It's failure entirely stems from the mismanagement from our own government. I really don't think we'll save the NHS by either leaving the EU or staying in it. I for one can't see the NHS surviving much past the next decade, which I think will be a travesty!

The reality of the situation is, as has been played out in Port Talbot, by Tata steel, an Indian owned company, is that they wanted some modification to the Pension rules here in the UK. They flexed a little muscle, beat a little on their chest and won. Our system failed us. We bent over backwards to accommodate
 
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Thankfully the mass of the negotiating work will be down to civil servants and diplomats, and not the bumbling oafs in Westminster. Your concerns about the likes of the PM (and the vast majority of our MPs) negotiating deals is one we share.

I dont believe I blamed the EU for anything to do with the broken NHS - again I share your thought that that is down to our own idiot PM and MPs. The point I'm raising is the FUTURE danger from TIPP, which the EU is currently negotiating us in to (behind closed doors). It will give the Americans the opportunity to basically take over the NHS and run it as a private company. Under TIPP, if any American company is denied access to a market by the UK government it can sue the UK government for perceived losses. It will also prevent the UK government from re-nationalising any element of the NHS that has been privatised.

TIPP Will effect every EU market that the Americans can get their hands on. The EU has admitted that it will cause job losses across Europe as jobs get moved to the states.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/07/ttip-eu-us-trade-deal-nhs-cameron_n_5657210.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html
 
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In response to the OP, I shall be voting to remain.

Here, in the North of England, we have in many ways a closer relationship with Europe than with London.

The North East, without Europe, could potentially become economically very desolate. Of course, The Tory government could actually support the regions, but that would be a first, and I am not willing to rely on that.

As for Scotland, I suspect that an exit vote would accelerate their almost inevitable departure from UK - a move I would not welcome, but would understand. Were they to take that move, it is likely I would move 50 miles further north!
 
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Scotland voted to remain. The outcome on the EU referendum should not trigger another independence vote for them.
 
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@paul - Are you referring to the money the EU invests in the poorer areas of the UK (North East, Wales, Devon etc). That all expires in 2020 and so far no moves have been made to replace it, which is a big worry down here in Wales.

In theory, if we leave the EU and regain control of our own funds, the Barnett Formula should put the NE and Wales back on a similar footing money wise.
 
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