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Web Design problems poss legal advice

  • Thread starter Thread starter cmjim
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cmjim

Hi
I'm a newbie to the forum.

I am a partner in a small chocolate manufacturer and part of our busines was to sell our products online.

We designed our own website using a basic page builder package and knew we needed a profesional eccommerce site.

We live in a remote area and qualified for a 50 % grant for our website from the local enterprise agency. The enterprise agency recommended a local company (we are are in a rural and remote area with few Web companies operating here) who we approached. They quoted around the maximan grant 3700 which included an eccommerce platform with worldpay, this include a content management system, 8 static pages, shopping basket and a backend mangement system for orders etc.

We thought the company the company quoted in the region as they knew we qualified fot the grant.

Thus being a small start up we looked for a cheaper alternative.

We approached a chap who had moved into our village who we knewran a company with a business partner. He does the programming and his partner graphic/web design.

Our looked the quote and spec and thought it was on the high side and said his company would develop a bespoke system for our business.

Thus the we decided to go with them although no contarct was signed.
They worked on the website to be lauched in time for Christmas sales (end Dec)

Thy siad time was an issue and the site would be basic but we could take the orders and payment was via paypal.

We had a number of complaints from customers regarding the site as many felt it was confusing. We also had issues with paypal.

At the end of December we recieved a invoice for an amount close to 3700 including VAT. They originally ommited the VAT in their original quote. The hosting cost had gone from £25 per annum to £50.

After recieving the bill I discusssed these issues with our neighbour. He said the project had taken them longer and we had only been billed for half the time they had worked on the project. He said the VAT was an error on their part but still sought the payment for it.
HE also said that the project was 2/3 complete.
Iasked about a content management system so that we could update the site our new page etc. He said it wasn't part of the spec and would cost extra. We took this for given and we updated our news on a weekly basis on our old site. He was happy because this was their first eccommrce site aand the experience gained would make it easier when it comes to thier next project.
He also mentioned that their houly rate had gon up from £25 to £30 (+VAT)
previously they had failed to mention VAT as above.

I feel we are paying for their learning curve and they have been unfair. We are held over a barrel as they are hosting our website on their servers. We feel stuck as we can ill afford to go over budget and wary if cost spiral as they encounter more problems with our web site.

Any advice would be graetly appreciated
James
cocoamountain.co.uk
 
well you get what you pay for. Theres always a punishment to be had if you try to get it too cheap. Normally this may be bad service or poor quality but in your case a bunch of unethical traders.

Should have taken the first quote £3700 sounds about right.
 
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Generally, if you've not got a contract and not signed anything you wouldn't have to pay as they cannot prove that you requested them to do the work (From my learning curve when we first started).

If you've not paid anything already, then speak to Antonia, and then start looking for an alternative company.

Rgds,
Chris

Small Plug: we'd be more then interested in this project as we are looking to break into the Manufacturing market.
 
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Hi James,
I am an ECommerce developer.
Am not sure if you have resolved the issues you have had with your developers.
If you want me to look at the overall ecommerce site to provide my recommedations and comments regarding the quality of coding etc. i would be more than pleased to help.
Please do not hesitate to contact me if you need my assistance.
Regards
CSWALES
 
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Hi , kind of similar problem. I need advice. long story.
I employed developer based on seeing site he had built. Been managing own site for years but lucky enough to be very busy so needed updating with comprehensive database and automation of some of the tasks. Plus the Perl was out of date (out of my league)
Told him I wanted to keep current site structure. Gave access to old site. sent pictures of other companies payment pages basket structures etc saying why they were good.
Used my own ISP. wrote very specific requirements (but as bullet points) like import old customer data etc. First problem - lack of e-commerce understanding. He wanted to send password to customers before they could buy. (like on this site) I said definately not. (in 9 email replies very patiently explaining how e-commerce works - and they kept saying I had to) Next he changed the user log-on. I said must be the same and he refused to change it unless I paid for the extra work. Job was due to take 5 weeks and time was not of the essence but every single bit was like pulling teeth. Sent them simple front page design after they sent me one I hated and they said No. They didn't like it.
Had big rant after six weeks about it being my site and them being in breach of contract 'to promptly comply' They used my front page. Nothing else really changed.

Finally, 3 months after starting they said they wanted me to sign off all the work on back end by next day. They were moving onto front end and would do nothing else to code after that. I refused saying until data was added & site was live it couldn't be tested. Front page displayed incorrectly in ie (My fault for supplying design apparently) and once catalogue items were added the layout vanished. everything was in plain text. When I asked why no design on any of the pages I was told since I'd provided front page, they expected me to design the rest.

I'd had enough. I was so tired. but I'd paid £2000 up front. It looked like he'd done a fair job on the database but didn't have a clue on DDA etc.
I didn't want a row so I offered to take site as it was. They could keep £2000. If new developer could use database I'd pay full amount. They said No. I thought they'd misunderstood me but they refused two more times.

So I said fine. It's not within a reasonable time, you weren't diligent, you didn't comply with contract, I withdraw my offer. Take everything away from site unless you plan to plead mitigation and return the advance.

They took it away. I found new developer. Excellent understanding of what I want. Listens. Inputs good ideas. etc etc. Everything he says highlights previous failings.

We deliberately used different protocol to avoid any charge of using previous design.

Sent them request for refund followed by LBA and now they're saying they wont pay. They say they're committed to finishing the job(!)

I know they're nuts. I know they dont know the first thing about customer service. Please tell me if I'm right to say they have to refund me. Surely holding me to ransom was also illegal & meant they effectively terminated the contract.
I have all this stuff in emails but I know my rights are limited by the fact it was a bespoke service and if I'm going to have to go to court I need to know that I'm going to win. (being busy doesn't mean making money in my case)
I need to pay the new developer as well.
I need advice.
 
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well you get what you pay for. Theres always a punishment to be had if you try to get it too cheap. Normally this may be bad service or poor quality but in your case a bunch of unethical traders.
Click to expand...
I would disagree that no matter what you pay you should not expect poor quality or service, even If you pay only £100 or £100,000.
You are given protection under law from poor services under the SUPPLY OF SERVICES AND GOODS ACT 1982;

www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/Acts/ukpga/1982/cukpga_19820029_en_1
 
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Complaints about web design are very common. As with IT contracting disputes generally, its all about not setting down a clear and detailed specification in one document of exactly what is to be done.

Its crazy for the designers to not try to settle a deal because:-
* they lose a client
* they lose all potential for future revenue from that client
* they risk adverse comment about them thus losing them more prospective clients

However there are often intervening factors that lock in the dispute such as the unpaid designer hosting the site and /or registering the domain name.

Because of the mutual interest in resolving, web design disputes as with all IT disputes, we set up a dedicated IT dispute mediation service in which independenet expert advisors assist the mediator on any technical issues. Its all done in confidence and online with the mediator and expert able to be taken through the element of the site in dispute. I can explain more if you email me - [email protected] or complete our enquiry form.
 
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Thanks! It's undeniably vague. What is a question of fact?
Because I'm a trader, I have to know consumer law but it's not so much the theory as the practice I'm worried about. We have a kind of 'if it's possible we'll do it' policy but I regularly encounter and tolerate poor service. Generally, I'd say it's the product that counts.
The boss was a nightmare from the start. I just thought I could handle it. He was so full of it. I'm sure that they broke the law in a criminal way (under the May legislation) when they threatened no more work unless I approved the jobs done so far. Luckily, I know that a site needs strenuous testing in a live environment before all the glitches can be identified.
I think that under normal circumstances the contract would be void by me not receiving 'consideration' but I've read somewhere that 'bespoke' items are seen differently.
Truth is, I hate arguments. If I'm forced to go to court I'd rather do it on something factual. Within a reasonable time is so vague and in all honesty if he had looked like coming up with the goods, any timescale would have been reasonable.

My new developer would happily act as expert witness to the developer's ability but he wouldn't be eligible (says some bits are good but obvious he's working to a template that he can't deviate from)

I agree with you. It shouldn't matter how much a customer is paying you. However, the law relates the cost to the standard of the goods. Is £3000 cheap for a database driven site?
 
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I paid a lot less for mine 2 years ago and even with a large amount of changes over the last 2 years the total amount I have paid hasn't reached that amount.

And I am very happy with my site and my designer and would happily have paid a little more. He works from home so doesn't have the overheads of an office etc. Does that make a difference?

He acknowledges that much of the site was a learning curve for him and after all, many of the ideas were mine in terms of how the site should operate from a structural and detail point of view, so he is benefitting from my input which he can use for the future.
 
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Thanks! Very helpful. (To both of you)- I've emailed Graham as sadly, mediation is out of the question. They were wrong from the start.
 
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