Vehicle respray - satisfactory quality

[Mark T Jones]

A bit specialist, but perhaps someone can add experience here?

Brief background.

March 20, took my car for a freshen-up, which included respraying 3 panels.

Jan 22, lacquer on one sprayed panel (bumper) started peeling. Foolishly I did nothing about it.

June 22, lacquer on roof (also sprayed) started peeling.

Returned to body shop to ask what they would do. They acknowledged the issue saying their warranty expired after 2 years (yes, I know!). Offered a tiny 'goodwill' discount.

In truth I'd I have no faith in their workmanship so am considering a claim

So the question - would paint peeling in 2 years and 3 months constitute 'satisfactory quality?'

 

[WaveJumper]

The short answer No .... I have a 24 year old Mercedes don't see the lacquer pealing of that. My guess is the surface was damp when applied but worth a google on the topic

 

[fisicx]

It’s peeling because the surface wasn’t prepped and maybe even because the vehicle was too cold when they did the prep.

Paint will fade but should never peel.

 

[WaveJumper]

Just been reading through this over lunch:

Key Causes and Solutions for Fixing Peeling Clear Coat

The carnage inflicted by COVID-19 goes well beyond filled hospital beds, or the interruptions in the lifestyles we humans hold so dear. All told, global vehicle production was down a whopping 20% across the board in 2020. Fractured supply chains, low customer demand, shaky economies, and poorly...

uk.avalonking.com

 

[kulture]

Perhaps worth getting an independent expert report.

 

[Mark T Jones]

Just been reading through this over lunch:

Key Causes and Solutions for Fixing Peeling Clear Coat

The carnage inflicted by COVID-19 goes well beyond filled hospital beds, or the interruptions in the lifestyles we humans hold so dear. All told, global vehicle production was down a whopping 20% across the board in 2020. Fractured supply chains, low customer demand, shaky economies, and poorly...

uk.avalonking.com

Thanks for this

Its probably relevant that the peeling is very much starting from the edges, so weather and birds are unlikely to be the culprits

 

[Mark T Jones]

Perhaps worth getting an independent expert report.

Sensible, but TBH I'd take my chance on the courts for a relatively small sum.

I've given them a first 'legal' warning shot, so see how they repond.

 

[MBE2017]

I think any normal judge or person would expect paint repairs to last 5/10 years.

Your paint shop probably know this as well, I have never heard of a two year warranty, I have know British Rail sandwiches to last longer than that.

 

[Nico Albrecht]

respraying 3 panels.

How much did they charge for those 3 panels to respray and how long did it take?

Why was the roof resprayed? I get bumpers and door but roof panel is quite unusual.

 

[Nico Albrecht]

I think any normal judge or person would expect paint repairs to last 5/10 years

There is no base for it. Most car manufacturers warranties in the UK cover 3 - 8 years. VW is 3 years max for paint. Not sure where 5/10 years is based on or coming from.

 

[Mark T Jones]

How much did they charge for those 3 panels to respray and how long did it take?

Why was the roof resprayed? I get bumpers and door but roof panel is quite unusual.

The roof was resprayed - its not in question

 

[Nico Albrecht]

The roof was resprayed - its not in question

Misunderstanding. Why was the roof resprayed? What damage was on the roof panel before the respray.

For costs I would expect around 1k for such a job on a low to midrange car and 3 panels included.

£400 per panel to blend paint in and the bumper around £300. Together min £1000 it's about 12 - 16 hours labour to do it right plus paint cost for a good job that's gonna last.

It takes time to prep the old panels, do some minor tlc, cleaning, primer and several coats, dry time wet sanding and buffing.

How much did you pay?

 

[Mark T Jones]

Misunderstanding. Why was the roof resprayed? What damage was on the roof panel before the respray.

For costs I would expect around 1k for such a job on a low to midrange car and 3 panels included.

£400 per panel to blend paint in and the bumper around £300. Together min £1000 it's about 12 - 16 hours labour to do it right plus paint cost for a good job that's gonna last.

It takes time to prep the old panels, do some minor tlc, cleaning, primer and several coats, dry time wet sanding and buffing.

How much did you pay?

I'm not seeing the relevance?

The roof was resprayed because it needed a respray.

I payed in line with their quote

 

[MOIC]

I would take it to your local brand dealer for an opinion, and try to get it in writing.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

It is simply crap there are some real chancers running body shops these days
Their business model is to look after the insurance companies and nobody will care as the chances are that the car will have been moved on in 3 years and there will be no come back !

 

[MBE2017]

There is no base for it. Most car manufacturers warranties in the UK cover 3 - 8 years. VW is 3 years max for paint. Not sure where 5/10 years is based on or coming from.

I never said it was based on anything other than my opinion that a normal person would expect such a repair to last 5/10 years.

Looking around the web, there are repair places quoting 2 years, but I still think that is very low. From a legal point of view, more and more contracts are running fowl of the “normal perception” question. A company can state such terms, but that does not mean if challenged a court would agree they were fair, and if not, they can become invalid.

I am not expert enough of legal matters to say where this lies, I doubt Mark would test such a case for the amount involved. Anyway, to answer the question, I would not consider personally a paint job becoming defective after 2 years 3 months satisfactory quality.

It sounds like poor prep or some reaction re the materials used, but I only do diy repair and am no expert. That said, I have never had to repair any paint more than once myself.

Chipsaway offer a lifetime warranty on paint repairs whilst you own the vehicle, maybe of use to others in the future.

 

[DontAsk]

I had a call from my garage the day I was due to collect my new (2nd hand) car. When the valet was done it became apparent that they needed to respray the roof as the car had been parked under trees and the tree sap had caused damage. Didn't cost me anything and it lasted a good 8 years, and was still good as new, when I got rid of it.

 

[Nico Albrecht]

I'm not seeing the relevance?

There is a lot of relevance to it. A roof is hard to damage compared to a bumper or door. So nobody knows what happened to the roof. From an angry neighbour poring brake fluid over it to trees scratching it and what prep work would be required rust treatment etc....


All in I'd say it comes down to what was written in the contract, quoted and how much was paid for the job.

I'd argue this was a "repair only " not like "new" and 2 years is acceptable for a repair to last. ( my opinion ) Most car manufactures give 3 years paint warranty on new cars. 2 years on a repair seems reasonable to me. See it that way Apple provides on 5K laptops / machines a 1 year warranty in the UK I would expect a computer to last more than 1 year but seen plenty of cases 14 months in warranty refused

After that it comes down to how much was paid to get it down repair dirty alley job £75 / panel or proper repair plus prep work £300 - 500 / panel based on pre existing damage.

3rd point is not reporting it on time within warranty period this might be the kicker they can use in court to argue their case too.

Anyway good luck in court

 

[Mark T Jones]

There is a lot of relevance to it. A roof is hard to damage compared to a bumper or door. So nobody knows what happened to the roof. From an angry neighbour poring brake fluid over it to trees scratching it and what prep work would be required rust treatment etc....


All in I'd say it comes down to what was written in the contract, quoted and how much was paid for the job.

I'd argue this was a "repair only " not like "new" and 2 years is acceptable for a repair to last. ( my opinion ) Most car manufactures give 3 years paint warranty on new cars. 2 years on a repair seems reasonable to me. See it that way Apple provides on 5K laptops / machines a 1 year warranty in the UK I would expect a computer to last more than 1 year but seen plenty of cases 14 months in warranty refused

After that it comes down to how much was paid to get it down repair dirty alley job £75 / panel or proper repair plus prep work £300 - 500 / panel based on pre existing damage.

3rd point is not reporting it on time within warranty period this might be the kicker they can use in court to argue their case too.

Anyway good luck in court

The roof was scratched. Work was done as quoted and paid for.

There is absolutely no debate on these things.

You are correct, as per my thread the whole thing ultimately boils down to what a judge deems to be satisfactory quality for a bodyshop to do this work (which trumps their warranty).

Experience tells me there is no certainty on court outcomes, but I'll chance it if I sense its 51% in my favour

 

[DontAsk]

See it that way Apple provides on 5K laptops / machines a 1 year warranty in the UK I would expect a computer to last more than 1 year but seen plenty of cases 14 months in warranty refused

They don't have to offer any warranty. As a consumer, your legal rights trump any manufacturer's warranty. Action is against the supplier, if not bought direct from the manufacturer and you may need to go to court.

 

[kulture]

The roof was scratched. Work was done as quoted and paid for.

There is absolutely no debate on these things.

You are correct, as per my thread the whole thing ultimately boils down to what a judge deems to be satisfactory quality for a bodyshop to do this work (which trumps their warranty).

Experience tells me there is no certainty on court outcomes, but I'll chance it if I sense its 51% in my favour

Lack of an independent expert report may hinder your case. Also it depends on how much you originally paid. If you paid significantly less than the going rate then a judge may well decide that 2years is long enough. If however you paid a lot more then the expectation of a longer life for the repair is justified.

 

[Mark T Jones]

Thanks for all your feedback - I'm sufficiently confident that this isn't satisfactory quality to proceed (what's the worst that can happen?)

To be clear, I used an established (apparently) reputable bodyshop, whose quotes were in line with others. There were no 'funnies'.

I have fired the legal warning shot, so will see how they respond.

If they won't play ball it will be LBA then straight to online claim after 14 days. (Amusingly, none of their correspondence shows the company name, number or registered address, they might be surprised that I have this information)

Will let you know how it goes.

 

[smallclaimsassistance]

We all know, from our position as "lay" consumers, that this should not happen, possibly ever, and certainly not within 10 years or maybe more.

BUT, as Kulture says, this is a matter of expert evidence. Without an expert report which looks at the work that was done, explains how it was different from how it SHOULD have been done, had it been done properly, and opines that the work done was not of satisfactory quality, the court is likely to follow the defendant, who ARE experts (that's what they do, so the court would accept their opinion).

That last word is the crucial word here - "Opinion".

Opinion from a lay witness - any opinion - (you, me, NOT vehicle repairers and resprayers), is inadmissable. Only factual evidence from the likes of us is admissable, unless we are giving evidence in a field in which the court accepts our expertise, such as our work.

However obvious this may seem, the court will not accept your view that the work done was not satisfactory. You should be able to get an expert report for £200-£300, and if you succeed, you can recover the cost of the report.

Dean

 

[The Byre]

As Dean states - courts need evidence. I've been through this situation many times, albeit not in the UK and nothing to do with peeling paint. I have been an expert witness and I have litigated against agencies claiming that our work was inadequate. The court is not going to stagger out into the car park to look at your paint and they are only going to smile politely at photos of the paint.

In unsubstantiated claims like this one, courts are forced to clutch at straws. What they want is evidence and a reason why something is the way it is claimed. You will not be able to tell the court why the paint peeled. The defendants will be able to say why it has peeled and claim that it is no fault of theirs. That is the (biased) straw they will be forced to clutch.

An expert witness statement giving a reason why the peeling could have taken place seems vital.

 

[IanSuth]

As Dean states - courts need evidence. I've been through this situation many times, albeit not in the UK and nothing to do with peeling paint. I have been an expert witness and I have litigated against agencies claiming that our work was inadequate. The court is not going to stagger out into the car park to look at your paint and they are only going to smile politely at photos of the paint.

In unsubstantiated claims like this one, courts are forced to clutch at straws. What they want is evidence and a reason why something is the way it is claimed. You will not be able to tell the court why the paint peeled. The defendants will be able to say why it has peeled and claim that it is no fault of theirs. That is the (biased) straw they will be forced to clutch.

An expert witness statement giving a reason why the peeling could have taken place seems vital.

Yes what you want is something like

"in my expert opinion as an auto paint sprayer of 20+ yrs experience and member of the NBRA this paint job has peeled in less time than I would expect of a competently administered paint job, likely because a, b or c"

 

[Paul Norman]

During my time in the motor trade, we ran several bodyshops, usually, but not always, attached to a main dealership.

Respraying a car is a pricey, and skilled job, and if done properly the outcome should match the result achieved by the manufacturor. It certain should not be peeling after just two years.

So point one is plain. The job, it seems certain, was not done to a high standand. Sadly, a lot of bodyshops do low quality work, the quality driven down by a small number of insurance companies demanding cost cutting. The lower standards become habit. The bigger body shops can afford to tell those insurance companies to go away.

Point two is more complex - what should now happen. We used to issue 5 year warranties with our repairs. But our obligations were defined by those warranties. In your case, the warranty given has expired and you are into the vague arena of consumer protection. Personally, I would push harder and see if they crumble. The problem is that even if they do, you cannot be sure they will do a better job in fixing their error.

 

[smallclaimsassistance]

Yes what you want is something like

"in my expert opinion as an auto paint sprayer of 20+ yrs experience and member of the NBRA this paint job has peeled in less time than I would expect of a competently administered paint job, likely because a, b or c"

It will indeed need to say something along those lines, but you need to find someone who understands the requirements of Part 35 of the Civil Procedure Rules, is used to writing expert reports, and knows what must go into them. Specifically, the form and content of the report needs to comply with this.

I'd start by doing a search for expert vehicle engineering reports. When choosing, select an established company that advertises reports for court use. To be clear, this is not just a glorified estimate or letter you're after.

 

[Mark T Jones]

The problem is that even if they do, you cannot be sure they will do a better job in fixing their error.

This point has occured to me - either they think 'best get it right' or '**** him'.

In reality I know that if they offer to do the job (which might well happen) any legal action will become very fragile.

 

[smallclaimsassistance]

Mark, check PM.

 

[Colourmy]

Having been to court recently as a defendant, I’d say you’ll have a good chance. The consumer rights act 2015 trumps everything apparently, even the right to breathe!
Joking aside, two years isn’t long but, critically, you didn’t contact them.
In essence, they would have had to organise to repair or plan to resolve the issue at the first contact.
There of course could be faulty lacquer but the likelihood is the ratio of hardener wasn’t right if the paint is still in place and adhered.
Spraying anything is 85% preparation, and if that is done correctly, then things should last for a long while, regardless of the warranty period.
An expert report from an unbiased source will help too but obviously not from another garage that may have a financial interest should you win your claim.
I’d just badger the garage to redo it- it’ll be cheaper for both parties.
Cheers

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

Contact your local Trading Standards?

 

[Mark T Jones]

I’d just badger the garage to redo it- it’ll be cheaper for both parties.
Cheers

Very much my current course - unfortunately their MO appears to be ignore it and hope it goes away.

 

[MBE2017]

Very much my current course - unfortunately their MO appears to be ignore it and hope it goes away.

Maybe a carefully worded comment on social media with photos, tagging the garage in question might increase their willingness to do the right thing.

 

[Mark T Jones]

Thank you all for your input, which I took on board

After a little 'chat' (using some feedback from here), he has agreed to respray the panels at no costs.

I'll just have to hope he raises his game rather than dropping it!

 

[MBE2017]

Thank you all for your input, which I took on board

After a little 'chat' (using some feedback from here), he has agreed to respray the panels at no costs.

I'll just have to hope he raises his game rather than dropping it!

Hopefully you will get 1 to 2 years decent finish, so sell the car within that time frame.