VAT returns "to be submitted digitally"

Mr D

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How far do you want to go with this ? You`re not arguing for the sake of it surely ? If I need a heart bypass on the NHS, I don`t as it happens, should I pay for it directly, after all, I`m paying one way or another anyway ? The fact is HMRC want to save some money and/or increase the tax take which amounts to the same thing. They are then asking me to pay extra so they can do the latter and for the privilege of me being able to pay them thousands of pounds ?

Basically I`m a business not that far over the VAT threshold, but a retail business. A retail business just over the VAT threshold is not a big business, yet I`m being lumped in with multi million t/o businesses to whom the extra overhead of this is a minor issue. In fact it probably isn`t an issue at all because all businesses of that size will use an accountant or even have their own. These are the facts of the matter, and I`ve a right to feel p1ssed off.

Lots of things are paid for and we expect government to pick up the bill. Health for example. You still pay for it just not personally charged for the high expense you have caused. Most people over time if they live long enough will have a high expense service on the NHS so pretty much expected that people don't resent paying for your heart op.

Does that mean something new being brought in that you personally are using should be paid for by others when they won't gain any benefit and won't ever have use of it?

Saving money and increasing tax take are very different things as any business owner should well know.
Reducing costs and increasing income - very different things in your business? Certainly I would expect your accountant to think so.

Yes I get that you are a business just over the VAT threshold. Been there done that. Its not the nicest place to be but can go beyond it. The sky is the limit.
And you are lumped in with big business. Yes, that's the joy of being bigger than the smaller businesses, on the matter of VAT you are treated the same way as the big businesses. Because you are acting the same way as them.
Any extra overhead should be an issue - as should any extra tax! One way or another you WILL pay for software provided by government.

Yes businesses who are VAT registered may well use an accountant. By choice.
Be somewhat surprised if an accountant for a business doing such high turnover doesn't save the company money too.
Up to you as to whether you use an accountant, you know whether its worth it or not.

Be annoyed by all means. Just don't expect everyone else to agree with you about who should pay for what you have to use.
Do you expect government to pay for your computer too? For your phone?
 
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Clinton

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    @Justin Smith, I complete agree with you.

    No, seriously! It's a bloody outrage, a power grab and an imposition. It's bad enough that they're not paying us to collect their goddamn taxes!

    However, most people don't see it that way (as you probably discovered in this thread ;))

    But, if you feel strongly enough, stand up and fight!

    Many years ago, HMRC told me they wouldn't be sending me paper returns for my VAT any more and that I'd have to file online.

    I refused. (I won't go into the reasons, that's a long story, it's not that I'm incapable of filing online - I'm an accountant and I'm very clued up with technology.)

    They told me that new legislation had been passed and that I had no choice.

    I still refused (and I sent them my reasons).

    They stopped sending me paper forms... so I stopped sending them VAT returns.

    They started imposing fines. The fines kept going up and up, quarter after quarter, till they reached several tens of thousands of pounds (probably about £50K).

    I told them to get lost, I wouldn't pay. Everyone laughed at me and told me I was being stupid and argumentative and that I'd lose. But...

    Eventually, HMRC backtracked, waived all the fines and started sending me paper returns. They still do.

    So if you feel strongly enough, find others who think like you and do something about it!
     
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    Justin Smith

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    That sounds all very helpful, but I must admit my eyes just glazed over. Most of that doesn`t mean anything to me. I suspect there`ll be a few older business owners who are pushed to bring forward their retirement...... I cannot overemphasise how effing out of order I think the HMRC are being, let`s not forget the basic principle here, I`m paying them, they aren`t "doing me a favour". I`m particularly surprised it`s the so called "business friendly" Tories who are bringing this in. As I remember it flat rate VAT, to make life easier for smaller VAT registered businesses, was bought out under Labour (albeit Blair`s Labour, a rather different beast form Corbyn`s). What`s going on here ?
     
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    SteveHa

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    PS: If you want to see how I dissected their terms and conditions and formally objected to individual terms as the grounds for my refusal

    MTD is rather a different beast. The whole process is legislated, including the penalty regime for failing to comply. It is NOT simply a case of HMRC having an arbitrary procedure. Unless someone genuinely fits into the legislated exceptions, no tribunal or court would overturn the penalties for failure in MTD.
     
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    Justin Smith

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    @Justin Smith, I complete agree with you.

    No, seriously! It's a bloody outrage, a power grab and an imposition. It's bad enough that they're not paying us to collect their goddamn taxes!

    However, most people don't see it that way (as you probably discovered in this thread ;))

    But, if you feel strongly enough, stand up and fight!

    Many years ago, HMRC told me they wouldn't be sending me paper returns for my VAT any more and that I'd have to file online.

    I refused. (I won't go into the reasons, that's a long story, it's not that I'm incapable of filing online - I'm an accountant and I'm very clued up with technology.)

    They told me that new legislation had been passed and that I had no choice.

    I still refused (and I sent them my reasons).

    They stopped sending me paper forms... so I stopped sending them VAT returns.

    They started imposing fines. The fines kept going up and up, quarter after quarter, till they reached several tens of thousands of pounds (probably about £50K).

    I told them to get lost, I wouldn't pay. Everyone laughed at me and told me I was being stupid and argumentative and that I'd lose. But...

    Eventually, HMRC backtracked, waived all the fines and started sending me paper returns. They still do.

    So if you feel strongly enough, find others who think like you and do something about it!

    Doing something similar did occur to me, but if the page on their site for one to file ones VAT return (that`s filing your VAT return online anyway, let`s remember) is removed, how would you file your return ? If, by some oddity, you were still able to fill in that online return, then pay them what you owe, one wonders what they`d actually do about it, and what the courts would do about it if it ever got that far. After all, you are paying the VAT people what you owe them.
    The fact we`re even talking about this for something bought in by a supposedly "business friendly" Tory Govt would be hilarious, if it weren't worrying and upsetting me so much.....
     
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    Clinton

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    MTD is rather a different beast. The whole process is legislated, including the penalty regime ....
    Nothing, but nothing is beyond challenge!

    If, by some oddity, you were still able to fill in that online return, then pay them what you owe, one wonders what they`d actually do about i.....
    They'd still do something about it.

    If you want to challenge these things you need to be prepared to read the legislation, find holes in the wording, find where it conflicts with other legislation, whatever. It's your job to find holes.

    When the DfE banned flexischooling in 2012 I got together with other campaigners and got the decision overturned on the grounds that the DfE hadn't done a proper assessment on how that would affect children with SEN. It was a technicality but it worked and the DfE reversed their decision within a month.

    When our local secondary was earmarked for closure we challenged it and as the decision was relying largely on demographic stats provided by the LA we set out to prove that the LA was crap at stats and found evidence that they had screwed up on stats numerous times in the past. The closure decision was reversed.

    Think less about being outraged and more like how Mr Loophole would think.

    Or just fall in with everybody else and ...comply!
     
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    Clinton

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    Here's a small extract from the 10 page document I sent HMRC when I refused to comply with filing online VAT

    19.2 If you register on the HMRC or Business Link websites, the details you provide will be passed to the Government Gateway for verification (on behalf of HMRC). If successful, your registration details, including your name and email address (optional), will be stored securely on the Government Gateway system, in accordance with the Gateway privacy policy. You can view the Government Gateway privacy policy on their website.

    You have provided no details of the privacy policy from this Gateway site. You are asking me to agree to a privacy policy on a third party site that can change at any time without my prior acceptance. I won't do that. Further, the privacy policy on the gateway.gov.uk site requires me to have cookies enabled. They won't allow me to use their site if I don't have cookies enabled. For security reasons I do not browse the internet with cookies enabled. I have no intention of dropping my security just so I can use that site. Your own privacy policy (19.4) also requires I enable cookies. What's more, you use “persistent” cookies that are stored on my computer for five years. That's excessive, unwarranted and unacceptable to me.

    19.3 Your email address, if provided, may be used by the Government Gateway to communicate with you and to forward messages to you in relation to other Government online services if you choose to register for those services.


    You say “if provided” but there is no option – I have to provide it to register. I have several thousand email addresses that I monitor on a daily basis as I own and manage hundreds of websites. Important messages sent to me by email could easily go missing in that flood of tens of thousands of emails I get every day most of which are spam. Agreeing to these terms implies agreement to getting email messages from other government services I'm registered for. I'm not willing for notices - including important/critical ones - to come via the medium of email where they can get lost or accidentally marked as spam and blocked from reaching me.

    ....


    25.2 If you would prefer to continue receiving PAYE notices and reminders by Electronic Data Interchange (EDI), magnetic media or paper, you can opt out of receiving these over the internet. You can do this on the HMRC website by following the 'Change notice options' link from your 'PAYE At a glance' page. However, HMRC reserve the right to continue sending other information, such as customer service messages and information about tax-free payments, to your online mailbox. If you later wish to change preferences, follow 'Change notice options' link from your 'PAYE At a glance' page.

    The change notice options link may offer the options I need to ensure you send all notices by post ... or it may not. However, there's a catch 22 as I can't see what the options are till I've accepted your terms and registered. That is unfair.
    ....
     
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    Mr D

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    When our local secondary was earmarked for closure we challenged it and as the decision was relying largely on demographic stats provided by the LA we set out to prove that the LA was crap at stats and found evidence that they had screwed up on stats numerous times in the past. The closure decision was reversed.

    It appears to be something of a joke, LA and stats.
    Sadly some campaign groups appear to be worse at stats, going for the headline rather than useful reality.

    Many years ago I had to disassemble some homeless statistics and one LA area I knew pretty well.
    How many homeless did they record living at one of the busiest road junctions in the borough? None.
    The stats say what the LA want them to say when the collection is rigged. Multiple LAs rig the stats.
     
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    Clinton

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    Another bit:

    ...
    >>General: HMRC may withdraw or add services and features or change the way in which you may access those services without prior notice - although HMRC shall try to give you notice of any changes

    I am not willing to accept this. "Trying" is not good enough.

    24.1 When you register for the first time, a secure online mailbox will be set up for you on the Government Gateway. Some online services may make use of the secure mailbox to send you communications and replies to email questions. For these services, you can view the contents of your secure mailbox on the HMRC website.

    24.2 You should regularly check your mailbox and delete old messages. Read messages that have been on the system for up to three months from delivery will be archived and removed from your mailbox. Unread messages that have been on the system for up to 12 months from delivery will be archived and removed from your mailbox.

    That puts the onus on me to regularly sign on to your site, read notices and "maintain" my mailbox. I'd prefer that notices are sent to me by the usual method of postal mail i.e. so you continue to be responsible for delivering them and not make it my responsibility to collect messages and notices. This is especially significant considering 25.1

    ...

    30.1: ....However access to the service may be suspended without notice. If the service is disrupted, it remains your responsibility to comply with any statutory time limits regarding the filing of statements and returns.

    I don't have an alternate route to file statements/returns. If your service is disrupted I shall end up getting fined for not making my returns on time. I do not see how it's in my interest to agree to this. If it's your decision that I can only file online then it's your responsibility to ensure that your service is always operational or you extend deadlines appropriately if the online service goes down.

    31.2 Updates to this information will be placed in the Legal conditions area which can be accessed via the 'Your account' area. You should ensure that you keep yourself updated as to your legal obligations by checking this area regularly.

    So in addition to requiring me to monitor my emails from you and the notices you send to the inbox of my account on your site, you also expect me to keep a constant watch on changes to the terms and conditions by logging into your site and going to the appropriate area? That is an undue burden on me and I am not willing to do that.

    32.4 HMRC will not be liable for any disruption or failure to make the system available.

    If you are requiring that I use the system to submit returns then it's unfair to absolve yourself of responsibility to keep the system available.

    You need to be patient, you need to be persistent, you need to be a pain.

    Change can be achieved but it's takes awkward sods to achieve it. I am an awkward sod. Are you one? If not, give up, just go and get assimilated!
     
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    Justin Smith

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    "This is especially significant considering 25.1"

    I Wonder what 25.1 was all about;)

    One of my clients didn't go to all the trouble - they just phoned HMRC up said they were not going to file online, the internet is not safe, so they just sent out paper VAT Returns for completion.

    Ahh, so they are flexible......
     
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    Clinton

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    Sorry, Clinton. All you argued against were HMRC processes and procedures. That is a very different prospect than arguing against what is written down in law. Your stated success has no bearing on arguing against MTD penalties.
    Nope, they had the legislation to back it up. It was a long time ago and I don't have all the details, but all the arguments that accountants (and ex-HMRC staff ;) ) offered were based on legislation passed at that time. The approach that seemed best at the time was to challenge HMRC's implementation rather than the law so that is what I did.

    Besides, I don't care what's "written down in law". The law says you should pay a fine when you get caught speeding. Ask David Beckham how much he paid. There have been numerous occasions I have challenged the law - including immigration law and corporate law. Most times I have won (even when lawyers told me I had no chance in hell and I decided to fight the case myself).

    But, hey, I'm sure there are lots of accountants all over the country telling people they have no option. Like they told me back in the day.
     
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    Ahh, so they are flexible......
    thats when online vat filing came in. No idea what they are going to be like with MTD. Like everything HMRC touches it will a shambles for sure with penalties flying about all over the place spuriously churned out by their computer systems.

    I think there was some case law a few months back where the judge throw out HMRC's penalties demand as they were not issued by a 'human'. Not sure if went to appeal. @SteLacca should know.
     
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    paulears

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    Well - it's pushed me to talk to my accountant, and he explained it simply, and I was able to try the popular versions of compliant software in his office. Accepting that the simple software I've used for years has to go, I've got used to the idea and am switching to FreeAgent on Jan 1st. I have large amounts of receipts to process, many for very small amounts and the idea that I can use my phone to photo them, and this goes into the accounts, and then I can get rid of the receipts seems pretty attractive. Looking after receipts has been a real pain for years. I can use the system on any computer and phone. The accountant doesn't;t have to charge me for checking all my receipts, saving money which will pay for what I now have to give him each month to provide the software. He can give me a package cheaper than I can get from FreeAgent, so probably it will eat up the saving - leaving me with a small extra outgoing. For the phone scanning of receipts this seems worth it. Invoices can be emailed direct from the system, and automated reminders sent for unpaid ones. It can match up invoices against entries in my bank account. I quite like this. Not so sure about cloud storage, but I'm told this is fine. I'm more annoyed HMRC have not sent me anything in the post about this - pure luck I found out!
     
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    SteveHa

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    The approach that seemed best at the time was to challenge HMRC's implementation rather than the law so that is what I did.

    That's a different thing than challenging the law. HMRC are far from infallible, and given that the front line staff work from HMRC internal manuals rather than the law, they rarely know what the law itself says, and never seem to know where their manuals are patently wrong.

    I would have no problem taking a case to the tribunal where I believe that HMRC and the legislation are contrary to each other (and, in fact, I'm defending an enquiry at the moment that may finish up in me doing exactly that).

    However, where the law is clear and unambiguous (which is the case with fixed filing penalties), unless you can demonstrate the legislated terms for appeal (reasonable excuse, incorrect process by HMRC etc.) then you will not win, no matter how loud you shout.
     
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    Justin Smith

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    That's a different thing than challenging the law. HMRC are far from infallible, and given that the front line staff work from HMRC internal manuals rather than the law, they rarely know what the law itself says, and never seem to know where their manuals are patently wrong.

    I would have no problem taking a case to the tribunal where I believe that HMRC and the legislation are contrary to each other (and, in fact, I'm defending an enquiry at the moment that may finish up in me doing exactly that).

    However, where the law is clear and unambiguous (which is the case with fixed filing penalties), unless you can demonstrate the legislated terms for appeal (reasonable excuse, incorrect process by HMRC etc.) then you will not win, no matter how loud you shout.

    There`s something deeply wrong where the HMRC can insist you change all your systems and pay extra money as well, juts so you can pay them. I`m surprised anyone thinks this is a reasonable state of affairs.
     
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    Mr D

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    There`s something deeply wrong where the HMRC can insist you change all your systems and pay extra money as well, juts so you can pay them. I`m surprised anyone thinks this is a reasonable state of affairs.

    Why not?
    They got people to do that with VAT and payroll taxes. Not to mention government requiring you to supply certain information in the format they wanted.

    Perhaps they should go back to you simply showing a set of books to the local bailiff and him agreeing an amount for you to pay in taxes?
     
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    Another bit:



    You need to be patient, you need to be persistent, you need to be a pain.

    Change can be achieved but it's takes awkward sods to achieve it. I am an awkward sod. Are you one? If not, give up, just go and get assimilated!

    But seriously, what is the potential upside to the OP, versus the potential downside?

    Upside

    • Gets to continue using archaic systems.
    • Makes a point.
    Downside

    • Risk of heavy fines
    • Significant time and effort (far more than adopting new systems)
    • Legal costs.
    • potential unwanted attention to the nice people at HMRC.
    If the OP wants to be a crusader this might be the way to go. If they want to run a business it's just a distraction.
     
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    Mr D

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    Is this a genuine thread or a political rant?

    The time it has taken the OP to post on here and reject change they could have become a certified Xero adviser!

    Perhaps a strongly worded letter sent to HMRC and carried by an employed messenger working for the OP to the address he has for HMRC direct, staying in coaching inns and travelling by horse. Or a bit slower perhaps, pay someone going in the right direction to carry the letter to someone closer to the address who can get someone going in the right direction to carry it closer etc until HMRC eventually receive it.
    None of this new fangled postal service stuff.
     
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    Justin Smith

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    Why not?
    They got people to do that with VAT and payroll taxes. Not to mention government requiring you to supply certain information in the format they wanted.

    Perhaps they should go back to you simply showing a set of books to the local bailiff and him agreeing an amount for you to pay in taxes?

    I`ve been running this business for 25 years, and VAT registered for well over 20. I`ve never been put in a situation where the HMRC has required me to change my system with no support AND pay for the privilege of doing so, so that I can continue to pay them.
    Any reasonable person would consider it unreasonable, particularly for a small business not that far over the VAT threshold.
     
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    Mr D

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    I`ve been running this business for 25 years, and VAT registered for well over 20. I`ve never been put in a situation where the HMRC has required me to change my system with no support AND pay for the privilege of doing so, so that I can continue to pay them.
    Any reasonable person would consider it unreasonable, particularly for a small business not that far over the VAT threshold.

    Yes you have. You have been required to become VAT registered - that for pretty much every business is a change in system and pay for the privilege of doing so.
    Your own time, your own costs associated with collecting VAT. Your own bank charges for payments etc.

    You were willing enough to do stuff for free over 20 years ago. What changed?
     
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    Justin Smith

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    I can remember the dim and distant past when VAT was introduced. More than one taxpayer threatened to make a deduction from the payment they had to make to Customers and Excise to compensate for the additional time they needed to compile their VAT returns.

    To be quite honest he had a point, he was acting as the Governments tax collector for free. But this digital VAT is even worse, it`s actually requiring the business to pay out money in order to be able to pay the HMRC.
     
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    Justin Smith

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    Yes you have. You have been required to become VAT registered - that for pretty much every business is a change in system and pay for the privilege of doing so.
    Your own time, your own costs associated with collecting VAT. Your own bank charges for payments etc.

    You were willing enough to do stuff for free over 20 years ago. What changed?

    I`m sorry but you`re wrong, you might like to apologise, particularly after coming on here with all your trolling.

    When we became VAT registered the VAT office sent someone round here to show us all the ins and outs of paying VAT and how it might affect our systems. One thing she said which I`ve never forgotten is "we [the VAT office] aren't really that interested in collecting VAT from small businesses" (the implication was businesses just over the VAT threshold).

    When online paying of PAYE came on stream a few years ago the HMRC provided phone support, and the software ("Basic PAYE tools") to do it, critically there was, and still is, phone support for the Basic PAYE tool, something I needed when I couldn`t seem to claim back some sick pay the other month. I thought there was an error on their software, whereas in actual fact the Govt had stopped paying sick pay a few years back. They kept that quiet didn`t they.....
     
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    Mr D

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    I`m sorry but you`re wrong, you might like to apologise, particularly after coming on here with all your trolling.

    When we became VAT registered the VAT office sent someone round here to show us all the ins and outs of paying VAT and how it might affect our systems. One thing she said which I`ve never forgotten is "we [the VAT office] aren't really that interested in collecting VAT from small businesses" (the implication was businesses just over the VAT threshold).

    When online paying of PAYE came on stream a few years ago the HMRC provided phone support, and the software ("Basic PAYE tools") to do it, critically there was, and still is, phone support for the Basic PAYE tool, something I needed when I couldn`t seem to claim back some sick pay the other month. I thought there was an error on their software, whereas in actual fact the Govt had stopped paying sick pay a few years back. They kept that quiet didn`t they.....

    Oh sorry it wasn't you then that agreed to be an unpaid tax collector for HMRC and do additional work for free? Must have been my mistake.

    You pay for HMRC. You have done all along, just you aren't getting a separate bill for it. All that time and effort they put into helping you? Paid for from …. taxation?

    There is no trolling, there is disagreement with you. Very big difference.
    You want a whinge, OK I can get that. Too much whinge and not enough action is not attractive.
     
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    GillespieBS

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    I highly recommend putting your energy into improving your systems and adopting an electronic system. You will not make silly mistakes like this one. Free (and very cheap) software is available.

    I accidentally put the figure for net VAT due into the VAT return box for reclaimable VAT but didn`t realise my error till I`d already filed the return and had the pdf back. In the dim an distant past I remembered that trying to correct VAT error is a nightmare, and that is what it seemed to be when I tried to fill out a VAT652 form.... To be frank I didn`t even understand half the questions and when I tried to phone the help line I was throwing the phone against the wall being forced to talk a bleedin` computer (I can`t stand having to do that) so I gave up on that one. Can I not just make a compensatory error on the next return to balance it ? It`d be far simpler and it`s only for £850 anyway.
     
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    Justin Smith

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    Justin

    I highly recommend putting your energy into improving your systems and adopting an electronic system. You will not make silly mistakes like this one. Free (and very cheap) software is available.

    Which free software would you recommend ?
    Is it HMRC approved ? ! ?
    Is there any support available ?
    I`d have thought I`d most want a free package but with (I assume chargeable) phone support for the first year or so.
     
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    Justin Smith

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    Oh sorry it wasn't you then that agreed to be an unpaid tax collector for HMRC and do additional work for free? Must have been my mistake.

    You pay for HMRC. You have done all along, just you aren't getting a separate bill for it. All that time and effort they put into helping you? Paid for from …. taxation?

    There is no trolling, there is disagreement with you. Very big difference.
    You want a whinge, OK I can get that. Too much whinge and not enough action is not attractive.

    I don`t accept your equivalence of my tax and my costs for a problem the HMRC are giving me.

    You still haven`t answered my point that I did in fact get adequate help from the HMRC both when I became VAT registered and when I was required to start submitting PAYE electronically, this time, as far as I`ve been able to find out, the HMRC aren`t giving any help at all.

    I find the problem with this world is not that too many people complain, it`s actually that too many people just accept stuff without making a fuss about it. How the hell did / do airlines get away with charging passengers just to pick their soddin` seats, something which costs them sod all. I find this with my own business, customers generally don`t complain, even if they should.
     
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    Mr D

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    I don`t accept your equivalence of my tax and my costs for a problem the HMRC are giving me.

    You still haven`t answered my point that I did in fact get adequate help from the HMRC both when I became VAT registered and when I was required to start submitting PAYE electronically, this time, as far as I`ve been able to find out, the HMRC aren`t giving any help at all.

    I find the problem with this world is not that too many people complain, it`s actually that too many people just accept stuff without making a fuss about it. How the hell did / do airlines get away with charging passengers just to pick their soddin` seats, something which costs them sod all. I find this with my own business, customers generally don`t complain, even if they should.

    You paid for the help you were given. Just was done via general taxation rather than requiring you to pay separately to book a consultant to come out to you etc.

    Yes I agree most don't complain. They whinge on forums and social media but don't actually go as far as complaining where it can be at least noted and acknowledged by the relevant body.
    If you do complain, great. More power to you.

    There is a method of avoiding paying for your own seat. Take your own.
    They remove a seat to fit in a wheelchair, usually an aisle seat. :)
     
    Upvote 0

    GillespieBS

    Free Member
    Apr 11, 2008
    349
    52
    Bristol/Bath
    Which free software would you recommend ?
    Is it HMRC approved ? ! ?
    Is there any support available ?
    I`d have thought I`d most want a free package but with (I assume chargeable) phone support for the first year or so.

    I'd suggest banking with Natwest and get a complimentary FreeAgent account. Yes approved by HMRC. Yes support available and no charge as far as I am aware.

    If you can use this forum and have been doing your books for years then I think you've got it in you.
     
    Upvote 0

    Justin Smith

    Free Member
    Jun 6, 2012
    2,744
    398
    Sheffield
    I'd suggest banking with Natwest and get a complimentary FreeAgent account. Yes approved by HMRC. Yes support available and no charge as far as I am aware.

    If you can use this forum and have been doing your books for years then I think you've got it in you.

    https://www.freeagent.com/pricing/

    It seems to free for RBS Business customers, though I can never seem to get through on the phone to them these days in order to find out more.....

    https://www.business.rbs.co.uk/busi...17FE52CB33480A490D4C%40AdobeOrg|TS=1540462543

    How come they call it FreeAgent when it`s £20 a month ? ! ? That`s £240 a year to be paying for the privilege of being able to pay HMRC, sounds fair to me, not.
     
    Upvote 0

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