Vaccine anyone?

[Interestedobserver]

Former chair of the UK Vaccine Task Force Kate Bingham says the “scale-up is under way” in Teeside to manufacture the Novavax jab after its successful trial.

But she tells BBC Radio 4’s Today programme it will “not be rolling out tomorrow” as the factory has to go through the unpredictable process of growing the mammalian cells needed for the vaccine in high volumes.

She says the UK has to be “nimble, co-operative and supportive” to secure supplies against larger players such as the US, EU and Japan.

Part of the UK’s offer is to run high quality clinical trials quickly, using an NHS database of 400,000 volunteers, she says.

It meant the UK phase three Novavax trial had recruited all its participants before the US trial had even begun - an “absolutely phenomenal” result, Bingham says.

She says the UK also offered to procure equipment and help scale up manufacturing. In the case of AstraZeneca - now the subject of an EU row over supplies - the UK started scaling up manufacture in February, even before contracts were signed, she says.

“That’s what made the difference as to why we are so far ahead on manufacturing.”

 

[gpietersz]

@Justin Smith several EU countries are outside the Euro and Shengen, but every single one joined the EU vaccine procurement programme, while Brexit Britain stayed out. Coincidence?. It is clearly different.

Even in Britain there was enormous pressure on the government to join: see the links above, the remainer media were calling it "unforgivable" and accusing the government of "putting Brexit before health".

With regarding vaccinating rich vs poor countries, what about vaccinating the older people in poor countries? They have the worst of both risks.

@atmosbob buying the Sputnik vaccine at a country level is allowed within the EU program as it is not one of the vaccines the EU (or the UK) is buying. They are in the EU program but supplementing within its rules. This very different from our choice, which was to stay out and procure the same vaccines as the EU for ourselves.

 

[Newchodge]

She says the UK also offered to procure equipment and help scale up manufacturing. In the case of AstraZeneca - now the subject of an EU row over supplies - the UK started scaling up manufacture in February, even before contracts were signed, she says.

LAST February?

 

[Interestedobserver]

@Justin Smith several EU countries are outside the Euro and Shengen, but every single one joined the EU vaccine procurement programme, while Brexit Britain stayed out. Coincidence?. It is clearly different.

Even in Britain there was enormous pressure on the government to join: see the links above, the remainer media were calling it "unforgivable" and accusing the government of "putting Brexit before health".

With regarding vaccinating rich vs poor countries, what about vaccinating the older people in poor countries? They have the worst of both risks.

@atmosbob buying the Sputnik vaccine at a country level is allowed within the EU program as it is not one of the vaccines the EU (or the UK) is buying. They are in the EU program but supplementing within its rules. This very different from our choice, which was to stay out and procure the same vaccines as the EU for ourselves.

Take away Brexit and all the politics - it's just good to see that in terms of vaccines we seem to be doing very well compared to most

I have no doubt at all that at some stage we will help others as well

We do have to get our own ship in order first though

 

[Justin Smith]

@Justin Smith several EU countries are outside the Euro and Shengen, but every single one joined the EU vaccine procurement programme, while Brexit Britain stayed out. Coincidence?. It is clearly different.

Even in Britain there was enormous pressure on the government to join: see the links above, the remainer media were calling it "unforgivable" and accusing the government of "putting Brexit before health".

With regarding vaccinating rich vs poor countries, what about vaccinating the older people in poor countries? They have the worst of both risks.

@atmosbob buying the Sputnik vaccine at a country level is allowed within the EU program as it is not one of the vaccines the EU (or the UK) is buying. They are in the EU program but supplementing within its rules. This very different from our choice, which was to stay out and procure the same vaccines as the EU for ourselves.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one....

 

[Mr D]

LAST February?

What is wrong with last February?

Presumably the type of equipment needed is known. Presumably the demand can be estimated. What would be the unknown factor?

 

[DontAsk]

Err, Sweden, a relatively less important member of the EU than we were, took no notice of what the other EU countries were doing in their approach to the Covid pandemic. FACT.

But did it help their vaccination rate?

 

[DontAsk]

Germany has decided not to give it to the over 65s as they say there isn’t enough evidence as to the efficacy of it.

According to the beeb this morning they want to use their own vaccine so its as much a political decision as anything else.

 

[Ian J]

it's just good to see that in terms of vaccines we seem to be doing very well compared to most

I'm booked in for 9:00am on Sunday morning

 

[japancool]

Getting mine on Tuesday.

 

[Ian J]

Is there anything more inspiring than approaching the booth to be jabbed and seeing a woman in the next booth spark out on the floor with medics fussing around her

 

[Jeff FV]

Whilst I will admit I am a little bit envious, I am delighted for you @Ian J that you have had your jab, and that @japancool you have yours scheduled for this week.

I am not a big fan of our current government, and they have got many things wrong in this pandemic, but credit where credit’s due, they are doing very well with the vaccine roll out.

It gives me hope - both specifically as a route to defeat the virus, but more broadly that as a nation we are still capable of doing things well, and we are not always the basket case I fear.

 

[Clodbuster]

Not just vaccines - they've cornered the market in freezers necessary to use them. All decided at an April meeting.

 

[Mr D]

Not just vaccines - they've cornered the market in freezers necessary to use them. All decided at an April meeting.

Anyone got shares in the freezer companies making those freezers?

 

[Chris Ashdown]

I must admit i have not read much of the last two weeks posts, but the business owner who wanted to stop employees wearing face masks points out the lack of knowledge on facemasks

They are not there to stop you breathing in the virus

They are there to stop you expelling large volumes of your potential infected air out of your mouth into the face of others

As it quite cold, go out tonight and see how far you expel your air on a cold night. then place a facemask over your nose and mouth and see the reduced effect

 

[japancool]

Only the Pfizer vaccine needs a supercold freezer. The Moderna one can be stored in a regular medical freezer and the Oxford-AstraZeneca one can go in a fridge.

And the UK is going heavy on the AstraZeneca one because it's British, damn you! (and also because we're getting more of it than the EU...)

 

[japancool]

I must admit i have not read much of the last two weeks posts, but the business owner who wanted to stop employees wearing face masks points out the lack of knowledge on facemasks

They are not there to stop you breathing in the virus

They are there to stop you expelling large volumes of your potential infected air out of your mouth into the face of others

As it quite cold, go out tonight and see how far you expel your air on a cold night. then place a facemask over your nose and mouth and see the reduced effect

That's exactly it. Masks are there to protect other people, although they will obviously give you some protection as well.

The only thing that can really be said is that, in those East Asian countries where mask wearing is commonplace, they're not suffering anywhere near our level of fatalities, despite Japan having one of the oldest populations in the world. 5688 deaths vs our 106,000.

 

[Clinton]

I am not a big fan of our current government, and they have got many things wrong in this pandemic, but credit where credit’s due, they are doing very well with the vaccine roll out.

It gives me hope - both specifically as a route to defeat the virus, but more broadly that as a nation we are still capable of doing things well, and we are not always the basket case I fear.

That's very generous of you given your consistent pro-EU stance to date.

Some of the Remoaners on this site must be livid at the state of play, furious that their beloved EU has not come out the winner to show up poor, isolated, incompetent, delusional Britain which is lagging miles behind.

So much for collective bargaining power.

So much for the superior negotiators (who screwed up on even a basic contract with a pharmaceutical firm).

And so much for the "friend" who ended up trying to use A16 as a weapon.

 

[Justin Smith]

That's exactly it. Masks are there to protect other people, although they will obviously give you some protection as well.

The only thing that can really be said is that, in those East Asian countries where mask wearing is commonplace, they're not suffering anywhere near our level of fatalities, despite Japan having one of the oldest populations in the world. 5688 deaths vs our 106,000.

We went to Taiwan in 2018, and China in 2008. I doubt even 20% were wearing masks.
If those countries have been more effective in preventing Covid deaths it's far more likely to be due to :
1 - A certain amount of immunity due to previous Sars virus(es).
2 - Particularly in the case of Taiwan & Japan restricting international travel.
3 - "pliant" rule following populations, particularly in China.

 

[japancool]

We went to Taiwan in 2018, and China in 2008. I doubt even 20% were wearing masks.

Of course not. Before the pandemic, people wore masks when they were ill to protect other people.

Since then, mask wearing has become universal, and no one complains because they're already used to it.

1 - A certain amount of immunity due to previous Sars virus(es).

Got any science to back that up?

3 - "pliant" rule following populations, particularly in China.

Fancy that, a population that follows rules that protect society and helps avoid lockdowns. Gosh.

 

[Justin Smith]

That's very generous of you given your consistent pro-EU stance to date.

Some of the Remoaners on this site must be livid at the state of play, furious that their beloved EU has not come out the winner to show up poor, isolated, incompetent, delusional Britain which is lagging miles behind.

So much for collective bargaining power.

So much for the superior negotiators (who screwed up on even a basic contract with a pharmaceutical firm).

And so much for the "friend" who ended up trying to use A16 as a weapon.

The EU has not covered itself in glory over this, that is a fact.
But I think we should see things from the other side as well.
If we were short of vaccine and a load manufactured in the UK (by companies we'd got contracts with for it) was being sent to the EU (or anywhere else) , how would we react ?
As for threatening A16, they shouldn't have done so but they rescinded it fairly soon. I would remind people that BoJo & Co were doing similar stuff (going back on previously negotiated agreements) only months ago.
People in glass houses comes to mind.

 

[gpietersz]

@japancool there is evidence for pre-existing immunity: https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563

 

[gpietersz]

And the UK is going heavy on the AstraZeneca one because it's British, damn you! (and also because we're getting more of it than the EU...)

Also because its by far the easiest to distribute of the ones available.

 

[Clinton]

The EU has not covered itself in glory over this, that is a fact.

That's an understatement.

Just found this!

The EU couldn't even properly redact a freaking document. The unredacted version is now available for all to see (and in violation of the confidentiality clause in the AstraZeneca contract). AstraZeneca could now, possibly, repudiate the contract.

You couldn't make this sh*t up!

 

[Justin Smith]

Fancy that, a population that follows rules that protect society and helps avoid lockdowns. Gosh.

Having a rule following population isn't always a good thing. If there had been rather fewer German "rule followers" in the 1930s and early 40s......
Furthermore, I'm of the view that the British antipathy to being told what to do was in no small way part of the reason we didn't give in in 1940. Gawd knows what would have happened had we come to terms in 1940, no unsinkable aircraft carrier to launch an invasion of Europe......

 

[Justin Smith]

That's an understatement.

Just found this!

The EU couldn't even properly redact a freaking document. The unredacted version is now available for all to see (and in violation of the confidentiality clause in the AstraZeneca contract). AstraZeneca could now, possibly, repudiate the contract.

You couldn't make this sh*t up!

I guarantee they will not do that.

 

[Mr D]

We went to Taiwan in 2018, and China in 2008. I doubt even 20% were wearing masks.
If those countries have been more effective in preventing Covid deaths it's far more likely to be due to :
1 - A certain amount of immunity due to previous Sars virus(es).
2 - Particularly in the case of Taiwan & Japan restricting international travel.
3 - "pliant" rule following populations, particularly in China.

Did you go among the locals or among the visitors from places that don't normally wear masks?
Just thinking may account for not seeing people wearing them....

 

[Mr D]

Having a rule following population isn't always a good thing. If there had been rather fewer German "rule followers" in the 1930s and early 40s......
Furthermore, I'm of the view that the British antipathy to being told what to do was in no small way part of the reason we didn't give in in 1940. Gawd knows what would have happened had we come to terms in 1940, no unsinkable aircraft carrier to launch an invasion of Europe......

The Germans were no more rule followers than the British, the Japanese, the French, the Russians or anyone else.

What they did get in Germany in the 1930s after Hitler came to power was jobs, food, pride, hope.... lose those then see what you will do to get them again. People strangely liked having those things.

1940 was easy for us. By 1942 we had things harder. Would not have taken much more to push us to surrender. Rhetoric aside we were losing ships, planes and men simply to not be conquered. An unwinnable situation with only one eventual outcome.

 

[Mr D]

I guarantee they will not do that.

Glad you can guarantee that.

Now those of the rest of us who aren't directors of the company will sit back and let the people in charge such as yourself decide such matters.

 

[jpjj]

@japancool there is evidence for pre-existing immunity: https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563

From the article quoted, it seems T cell cross reactivity has been found, but the jury still seems to be out on what this means for immunity:

"Formally, the clinical implications of the pre-existing T cell reactivity remain an open question. “People say you don’t have proof, and they’re right,” says Buggert, adding that the historical blood donor specimens in his study were all anonymised, precluding longitudinal follow-up.

There is the notion that perhaps T cell responses are detrimental and predispose to more severe disease. “I don’t see that as a likely possibility,” Sette said, while emphasising that we still need to acknowledge the possibility. “It’s also possible that this absolutely makes no difference. The cross reactivity is too small or weak to affect the virus. The other outcome is that this does make a difference, that it makes you respond better.”

Weiskopf added, “Right now, I think everything is a possibility; we just don’t know.""

 

[Mr D]

The EU has not covered itself in glory over this, that is a fact.
But I think we should see things from the other side as well.
If we were short of vaccine and a load manufactured in the UK (by companies we'd got contracts with for it) was being sent to the EU (or anywhere else) , how would we react ?
As for threatening A16, they shouldn't have done so but they rescinded it fairly soon. I would remind people that BoJo & Co were doing similar stuff (going back on previously negotiated agreements) only months ago.
People in glass houses comes to mind.

Considering they were lecturing us for over 4 years about the peace process and how NI had to be kept going, it took them less than a month after transition ended for them to mess things up.
Losing moral high ground, losing even any respect they may have had. Over something that should have been sorted out by lower level staff.

 

[Interestedobserver]

I guarantee they will not do that.

Lol

Justin's just guaranteed something. Watch out!!

 

[Justin Smith]

Did you go among the locals or among the visitors from places that don't normally wear masks?
Just thinking may account for not seeing people wearing them....

We spent just over two weeks in Taiwan, a fantastic country with very friendly people (thoroughly recommended as a holiday destination, when we can soddn' go next, obviously) and went to Tapei, Kaohsiung and Kenting. If anything fewer people wore masks outside Taipei. FACT

 

[Justin Smith]

The Germans were no more rule followers than the British, the Japanese, the French, the Russians or anyone else.

Rubbish.

1940 was easy for us. By 1942 we had things harder.

Utter rubbish.
Once Germany invaded Russia (June 1941) things looked MUCH brighter, and once the US officially came in on our side (Dec 1941) the result was never in any doubt whatsoever, just the timing.

 

[Justin Smith]

Considering they were lecturing us for over 4 years about the peace process and how NI had to be kept going, it took them less than a month after transition ended for them to mess things up.
Losing moral high ground, losing even any respect they may have had. Over something that should have been sorted out by lower level staff.

The EU backed down when they realised they'd made a mistake, within a day or so wasn't it ? Rather more than BoJo took with his change of mind" over the agreements he himself had signed.

 

[japancool]

@japancool there is evidence for pre-existing immunity: https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563

Yes, I've read that article before. But there's nothing to suggest that pre-existing immunity levels are any higher in East Asia than anywhere else.

 

[japancool]

Having a rule following population isn't always a good thing. If there had been rather fewer German "rule followers" in the 1930s and early 40s......
Furthermore, I'm of the view that the British antipathy to being told what to do was in no small way part of the reason we didn't give in in 1940. Gawd knows what would have happened had we come to terms in 1940, no unsinkable aircraft carrier to launch an invasion of Europe......

Yeah, Godwin's Law much?

Who was telling us to do what in 1940?

Remind me, who enabled the Nazis with "peace in our time" again?

 

[japancool]

We spent just over two weeks in Taiwan, a fantastic country with very friendly people (thoroughly recommended as a holiday destination, when we can soddn' go next, obviously) and went to Tapei, Kaohsiung and Kenting. If anything fewer people wore masks outside Taipei. FACT

Wow. You've spent 2 weeks in Taiwan, and you're an expert.

You actually haven't got a clue, have you? Engaging with you is obviously a waste of time.

Ignored.

 

[Justin Smith]

Yeah, Godwin's Law much?

Who was telling us to do what in 1940?

Remind me, who enabled the Nazis with "peace in our time" again?

"Godwin's Law" it was you who said it was good thing for people to be "rule followers". I'm simply pointing out it is not always a good thing, and the Nazis were the best example.

As for "Peace in our time", if you think that caused WWII you should read your history books mate.
WWII was arguably always a risk after WWI. Hitler always wanted a war, whatever the UK did would have made no difference and in 1939 Britain was militarily in no position to do anything to stop him anyway.

 

[Justin Smith]

Wow. You've spent 2 weeks in Taiwan, and you're an expert.

You actually haven't got a clue, have you? Engaging with you is obviously a waste of time.

Ignored.

I know what proportion of people in China (in 2008) and Taiwan (in 2018) were wearing masks thank you very much.