Unofficial UKBF Manifesto For SMEs

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

Now all of the major parties have launched their manifestos about what they will do if elected, what do you think they could have added to support what they all commonly call 'the powerhouse of the UK economy'?

 

[MikeJ]

I'm always reminded of the old saying. The most worrying thing for any business owner is "I'm from the government and I'm here to help".

 

[Ozzy]

My biggest gripe was re-confirmed in a meeting I was in as recent as yesterday, please excuse how vague I keep some of this...

I was there representing 'SME' alongside two other people, and we had to explain SME just doesn't work. We were told that a third of the organisations they engage with are SME, and then we had to ask how many of those 30% are smaller than £10M turnover or even £5M turnover, and have less than 20 employees, and so on. Civil service struggles to understand small business, so they call in the help of 'SME experts' who are typically may have been small in the past but are now so far detached from small business they no longer understand the challenges (eg. Lord Sugar).

So basically, policies may be introduced that will help business but they'll probably be of benefit to the 0.2% of big business in the UK, and perhaps 30% of the remaining 99.8% "SME" businesses, but the majority of all the remaining businesses in the UK will just have to roll our sleeves up and accept nothing and no-one will help us because they don't understand us.

 

[IanSuth]

they really need to separate S & M,

Maybe they need Big, Medium and the SME meaning Small & Micro enterprises.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

They are only interested in as Ozzy states that somehow manage to show in their financial projections i.e those with about the £5 million size, they seem to all hate the rascals who do startups as two difficult to understand and lots of tax problems for no reward. They don't really contribute to the taxman very much, so they can spend more

 

[Ozzy]

they really need to separate S & M,

I'd even go so far as to go something along the lines of breaking the SME categorisation down as;

Sole
Micro
Small
Medium
Large

I'd consider a ¢49M turnover company with 249x staff pretty damn big, but it's considered SME by the Gov.

 

[IanSuth]

I'd even go so far as to go something along the lines of breaking the SME categorisation down as;

Sole
Micro
Small
Medium
Large

I'd consider a ¢49M turnover company with 249x staff pretty damn big, but it's considered SME by the Gov.

I do a lot of work where we have to invoice via local authorities - a lot of them struggle with setting us up within a system designed for 6 figure plus deals when we can be invoicing sub £100 sometimes

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

I'd go a step further:
Sole
Micro
Mini
Small
Medium
Large

 

[Mark T Jones]

My biggest gripe was re-confirmed in a meeting I was in as recent as yesterday, please excuse how vague I keep some of this...

I was there representing 'SME' alongside two other people, and we had to explain SME just doesn't work. We were told that a third of the organisations they engage with are SME, and then we had to ask how many of those 30% are smaller than £10M turnover or even £5M turnover, and have less than 20 employees, and so on. Civil service struggles to understand small business, so they call in the help of 'SME experts' who are typically may have been small in the past but are now so far detached from small business they no longer understand the challenges (eg. Lord Sugar).

So basically, policies may be introduced that will help business but they'll probably be of benefit to the 0.2% of big business in the UK, and perhaps 30% of the remaining 99.8% "SME" businesses, but the majority of all the remaining businesses in the UK will just have to roll our sleeves up and accept nothing and no-one will help us because they don't understand us.

SME should be dumped as a terminology - particularly when our leaders don't understand it!

 

[Mark T Jones]

I'd even go so far as to go something along the lines of breaking the SME categorisation down as;

Sole
Micro
Small
Medium
Large

I'd consider a ¢49M turnover company with 249x staff pretty damn big, but it's considered SME by the Gov.

Is this not over-complicating things? I'd go in the opposite direction and simply divide by owner managed & corporate - probably market by number of directors or shareholders.

Though what I'd personally be interested in is some sector-specific policies including (ones close to my heart/wallet)

Hospitality. In particular VAT concessions, which exist throughout much of Europe.

Care: A big hot potato.

The High Street.

All of the above have a big role to play in the economy. All are under pressure.

 

[japancool]

I'm sure Keir Starmer understands small businesses.

His dad was a toolmaker, dontchaknow?

 

[Ozzy]

Is this not over-complicating things? I'd go in the opposite direction and simply divide by owner managed & corporate - probably market by number of directors or shareholders.

Though what I'd personally be interested in is some sector-specific policies including (ones close to my heart/wallet)

Hospitality. In particular VAT concessions, which exist throughout much of Europe.

Care: A big hot potato.

The High Street.

All of the above have a big role to play in the economy. All are under pressure.

For us here it is over complicating things, but we both know for civil service we need to be put into some pigeon holes for managing and dealing with us complicated and ungrateful entrepreneurs

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

I'm sure Keir Starmer understands small businesses.

His dad was a toolmaker, dontchaknow?

Didn't the PM's mum run a small business?

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

For us here it is over complicating things, but we both know for civil service we need to be put into some pigeon holes for managing and dealing with us complicated and ungrateful entrepreneurs

Using a general bit of advice we all give here, the more focussed the 'niche', the more targetted the support!

 

[Ozzy]

Didn't the PM's mum run a small business?

I know the Father-in-law has a little side hustle on the go.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

I know the Father-in-law has a little side hustle on the go

Lol

 

[Mike MD]

I'd say the biggest thing needed is to simplify complying with everything. So a one stop shop training businesses on correctly paying living wage, holiday pay, and what does and doesn't count as working time. A kind of compulsory 30 minute training video so people who employ get it right first time.

Then provide an employee hotline for them to anonymously call regarding businesses that don't comply, and then routinely enforce this. I suspect that with many on this forum this will not be popular, but if those are the law breakers, then so be it!

I come at this from 2 perspectives.

Firstly being a dad of daughters who during their uni part time / summer employments are routinely exploited by businesses, not even necessarily small ones by not paying them properly (including some working time that is unpaid, asking to stay behind to finish off but not being paid etc), and certainly not paying holiday pay fully, or in one case at all.

Secondly being a business owner who tries exceedingly hard to get it right first time and of course pays all employees fully including holiday pay, yet sometimes loses out to a shady competitor who doesn't do this. Especially those that abuse self employment rules to declare an employee as self employed to circumvent the rules when they are clearly an employee! Fortunately we are now big enough that most of our customers are large enough to see through the dodgy operatives - so this problem is getting smaller for us - we do OK. But it isn't fair that those who do the right thing get undercut by those who basically steal off employees!

 

[Newchodge]

I'd say the biggest thing needed is to simplify complying with everything. So a one stop shop training businesses on correctly paying living wage, holiday pay, and what does and doesn't count as working time. A kind of compulsory 30 minute training video so people who employ get it right first time.

Then provide an employee hotline for them to anonymously call regarding businesses that don't comply, and then routinely enforce this. I suspect that with many on this forum this will not be popular, but if those are the law breakers, then so be it!

I come at this from 2 perspectives.

Firstly being a dad of daughters who during their uni part time / summer employments are routinely exploited by businesses, not even necessarily small ones by not paying them properly (including some working time that is unpaid, asking to stay behind to finish off but not being paid etc), and certainly not paying holiday pay fully, or in one case at all.

Secondly being a business owner who tries exceedingly hard to get it right first time and of course pays all employees fully including holiday pay, yet sometimes loses out to a shady competitor who doesn't do this. Especially those that abuse self employment rules to declare an employee as self employed to circumvent the rules when they are clearly an employee! Fortunately we are now big enough that most of our customers are large enough to see through the dodgy operatives - so this problem is getting smaller for us - we do OK. But it isn't fair that those who do the right thing get undercut by those who basically steal off employees!

Might I suggest that it also be a requirement that the same video is shown to employees when they start work, with a reference to the appropriate trade union and how to join. As you say too many employers (and not all of them small ones) steal fro their empkoyees, and most employees don't know they are being stolen from.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

While there is no hunger in the UK to investigate the possible re-joining the EU We need a government that has a willingness to attempt to agree a trade free boarder with the EU

 

[Craiglincs]

I'd say the biggest thing needed is to simplify complying with everything. So a one stop shop training businesses on correctly paying living wage, holiday pay, and what does and doesn't count as working time. A kind of compulsory 30 minute training video so people who employ get it right first time.

Then provide an employee hotline for them to anonymously call regarding businesses that don't comply, and then routinely enforce this.

I come at this from 2 perspectives.

Firstly being a dad of daughters who during their uni part time / summer employments are routinely exploited by businesses, not even necessarily small ones by not paying them properly (including some working time that is unpaid, asking to stay behind to finish off but not being paid etc), and certainly not paying holiday pay fully, or in one case at all.

Secondly being a business owner who tries exceedingly hard to get it right first time and of course pays all employees fully including holiday pay, yet sometimes loses out to a shady competitor who doesn't do this. Especially those that abuse self employment rules to declare an employee as self employed to circumvent the rules when they are clearly an employee! Fortunately we are now big enough that most of our customers are large enough to see through the dodgy operatives - so this problem is getting smaller for us - we do OK. But it isn't fair that those who do the right thing get undercut by those who basically steal off employees!

What do you think the punishment should be?

We need a government that has a willingness to attempt to agree a trade free boarder with the EU

There's only two real options for this. Apply to rejoin the eu or try to get May's old deal where we are a regulation taker with an NI backstop. Either will send the brexit crowd into a frenzy and the politicians will be too afraid of losing voter support.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

There's only two real options for this. Apply to rejoin the eu or try to get May's old deal where we are a regulation taker with an NI backstop. Either will send the brexit crowd into a frenzy and the politicians will be too afraid of losing voter support.

You wont hear from them most of them have died now

 

[thetiger2015]

You wont hear from them most of them have died now

I don't know. Farage is getting quite a good following with the young people, because Starmer and Sunak appear grey and dull. I fear they'll be dragged in to supporting something they don't fully understand...again.

Running with the 'We'll rejoin the EU' banner is too much ammunition for the Brexit lovers. Best to not mention it for now and hope it's up for discussion when Labour are in. Although, I suspect, any future deal will be considerably worse than what we had before....bad times....

 

[IanSuth]

What do you think the punishment should be?



There's only two real options for this. Apply to rejoin the eu or try to get May's old deal where we are a regulation taker with an NI backstop. Either will send the brexit crowd into a frenzy and the politicians will be too afraid of losing voter support.

The best we could get now would be what the EFTA members have and reform/brexit/ukip would scream about betrayal at that as we would be full on rule takers with no seat at the rule making table.

I suspect Labour are waiting to see how the election goes and the size of the reform vote in various places before deciding on their exact strategy (as has been the case all along you cant be all things to all people you just have to decide who matters least to p off)

 

[Craiglincs]

The best we could get now would be what the EFTA members have and reform/brexit/ukip would scream about betrayal at that as we would be full on rule takers with no seat at the rule making table.

Norway said they won't let us in and EU said they won't do that deal with us. Even if they did it means freedom of movement which would have them doubly screaming.

Best we can get is replace fptp with pr, leveson is to stop papers lying and independent boundary commission, teeth for electoral commission when brexiteers break election laws again and in constitution with balance of powers so Tories can't ram through stuff and illegally prorouge parliament again.

Maybe federal act like Canada.

 

[NickGrogan]

Labour are not a pro EU party most of the time, so don't see much chance of them wanting to rejoin.

Combine that with Starmers inability to take a position on just about anything and you've got no chance.

 

[IanSuth]

Labour are not a pro EU party most of the time, so don't see much chance of them wanting to rejoin.

Combine that with Starmers inability to take a position on just about anything and you've got no chance.

they are pro most of the labour/employment protections introduced over last 25 years

 

[NickGrogan]

they are pro most of the labour/employment protections introduced over last 25 years

True, but not pro a lot of other things, hence their very vague Brexit position during the referendum.

 

[NickGrogan]

Norway said they won't let us in and EU said they won't do that deal with us. Even if they did it means freedom of movement which would have them doubly screaming.

Best we can get is replace fptp with pr, leveson is to stop papers lying and independent boundary commission, teeth for electoral commission when brexiteers break election laws again and in constitution with balance of powers so Tories can't ram through stuff and illegally prorouge parliament again.

Maybe federal act like Canada.

So you'd want more tory seats and less labour seats and lots of seats for Reform after the next election? Conservatives + Reform could probably form a majority with a few independents, keep Sunak in power.

Papers are supposed to lie, you just buy the paper that tells the lies you agree with.

Remain broke laws as much as the brexit party did, so it doesn't actually make much difference, I guess you could punish both?

A balance of powers so Tories can ram stuff through? Labour are looking at 200+ majority if the polls are true (They're not). This means that even if every other party votes against them they can still pass any laws they like, and you're worried about Tories ramming stuff through? OK.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Remain broke laws as much as the brexit party did, so it doesn't actually make much difference, I guess you could punish both?

We are punishing both you have the choice of Kier I dont know what to do
Or Rishi I want to sell all your assets to foreign companies

Ha Ha this Tory party cant look after its own anymore . They used to line the pockets of rich English people who needed old money to regenerate . Now they have stitched them up and make sure the profits of foreign investors are a priority

You could not make this up

 

[Newchodge]

There is no possibility of us rejoining the EU. They wouldn't want us, and I can't blame them. Any terms offered would be a lot worse than we had before as well. Join the single market and customs union, may be an option that would be worth doing.

 

[NickGrogan]

There is no possibility of us rejoining the EU. They wouldn't want us, and I can't blame them. Any terms offered would be a lot worse than we had before as well. Join the single market and customs union, may be an option that would be worth doing.

We agree on something...

Cant see them letting us join single market either, not worth the trouble

 

[Craiglincs]

So you'd want more tory seats and less labour seats and lots of seats for Reform after the next election?

Ideally no.

Conservatives + Reform could probably form a majority with a few independents, keep Sunak in power.

That could work depending on the agreement. Reform are promising pr voting so I'd take that as an acceptable trade off but I'd be worried about it being reversed. I'd take sunak again if it got us the desperately needed constitutional Reform.

---

So you'd want more tory seats and less labour seats and lots of seats for Reform after the next election? Conservatives + Reform could probably form a majority with a few independents, keep Sunak in power.

Papers are supposed to lie, you just buy the paper that tells the lies you agree with.

Papers are supposed to report the news, do fact checking, investigations and let you make your own opinions.

So you'd want more tory seats and less labour seats and lots of seats for Reform after the next election? Conservatives + Reform could probably form a majority with a few independents, keep Sunak in power.

Papers are supposed to lie, you just buy the paper that tells the lies you agree with.

Remain broke laws as much as the brexit party did, so it doesn't actually make much difference, I guess you could punish both?

They'd only wipe each other out if they spent exactly the same over in the same way but yes punish both, I'm not sure fines is enough,

A balance of powers so Tories can ram stuff through? Labour are looking at 200+ majority if the polls are true (They're not). This means that even if every other party votes against them they can still pass any laws they like, and you're worried about Tories ramming stuff through? OK.

Call me when labour illegally pro rouges parliment. I wouldn't want a future corbyn using that trick to ram things through either but I know which is more likley.

 

[Craiglincs]

Any terms offered would be a lot worse than we had before as well. Join the single market and customs union, may be an option that would be worth doing.

Yup no rebate and euro and schengen. How could we join the single market without rejoining? Isn't this just cakeism again?

 

[Newchodge]

Yup no rebate and euro and schengen. How could we join the single market without rejoining? Isn't this just cakeism again?

It was what we were offered before the referendum.

 

[RandyMarsh]

I would like to see reform of Business Rates, including the various rebates etc. The current rebate scheme helps small businesses but creates a huge financial step to climb if you want to expand.

I have a B&M retail business and last year I was looking at taking over another business whose owner was giving up so I would have had two shops. Both my business and the other business previously qualified for a 75% rate rebate. If I took over the other business there would be no rebate for the second premises and after a year I would lose the rebate on my existing shop. Just by merging the two businesses I would have to pay an extra £13k pa in rates. As a consequence, I didn't go ahead and the other business closed, so the high street lost another independent shop.

Business rates for warehouse space are very low compared to retail space, so B&M retailers pay through the nose and online retailers pay next to nothing.

 

[NickGrogan]

Call me when labour illegally pro rouges parliment.

When did the Tories illegally prorogue parliament?

Just by merging the two businesses I would have to pay an extra £13k pa in rates

Surely you keep them as two separate businesses?

Papers are supposed to report the news, do fact checking, investigations and let you make your own opinions.

Where did you get that idea from? Why do we have different newspapers if they are supposed to just report the news?

 

[Newchodge]

When did the Tories illegally prorogue parliament?

28 August 2019.

 

[NickGrogan]

Nope, courts ruled that prorogation didn't happen. They tried and it as blocked.

So why do we need more laws to prevent something happening that has already been blocked by our current laws?

 

[Newchodge]

Nope, courts ruled that prorogation didn't happen. They tried and it as blocked.

So why do we need more laws to prevent something happening that has already been blocked by our current laws?

Nope. The courts ruled, eventually, that the prorogation was unlawful and, as it was unlawful it could not have happened, so all record of it was expunged and parliament continued as if it had not been prorogued and unable to act for a number of weeks. If the law had blocked the prorogation on the day it was attempted, we would need no other support. But it did not.

 

[Craiglincs]

Nope, courts ruled that prorogation didn't happen. They tried and it as blocked.

So why do we need more laws to prevent something happening that has already been blocked by our current laws?

It would be nice to have a law or perhaps enforcement that stops illegal things happening. If I go and nick something I can't have the courts rule it never happened. It's still breaking the law.