Unfair selection for redundancy - all help/advice appreciated!

[Rasta Pickles]

Hi all,

This is my first post so be gentle!

After 28 years of service, I have received a "we're considering making you redundant, your 30 days consultation start now" consultation letter. There are 14 others affected by this development. The proposal is to move our work to another centre.

I've seen this with others in the business over the last couple of years and, without exception, the consultation period and the "nothing's been decided yet" is rubbish - once the letter is issued, the recipients don't survive.

The company's position re redundancy is that they don't acknowledge it and they use compromise agreements to protect themselves; having seen some of what's gone on in the past, I can see why!

Example: someone was made redundant two years ago and told her duties were going to be dealt with in another centre. Once she signed the compromise agreement and had left, they gave the girl who sat behind her those duties and paid her a grand a year extra!

In my case, statutory gets me £8,800 whilst a compromise agreement payment will get me something like £22,000. So telling them to shove any compromise agreement and going after them via an employment tribunal is risky.

We have come up with a counter-proposal which includes forfeiture of bonuses due in August, absorbing the extra work that the other centre currently do without any intake of extra staff and, in my case, I am prepared to hand back my company car. We have a meeting next week to discuss this but I am 100% sure we will be told the counter-proposal isn't viable.

For what it's worth, the other centre would need another member of staff to deal with the intake of our workload.

The HR1 form states "skills and competence" are the basis for deciding who is made redundant but in our meetings so far all we hear verbally is "this centre is more expensive, that centre is a cheaper model".

Thank you for reading - anyone got any words of hope? Or should I just take the £22,000?

 

[Rasta Pickles]

Just had some further thoughts which might help......

The guy who has come in and performed the (very cursory) audit is based at the very centre that is going to be assuming our roles!

Talk about looking after your own!

Also, he probably knows about 5% of what we do and, even if I am blowing my own trumpet, what I don't know about our systems wouldn't fill the back of a postage stamp.

We all perform tasks that are measured on the company's central website and we are head and shoulders above the centre that is apparently better-equipped than us.....it's in black-and-white.

 

[paultnl]

Do you have union representation?

 

[Rasta Pickles]

Thanks for replying.

Nope, no union representation.

 

[Williams lester]

Take the money!

 

[Bri]

agreed, take the money!!

 

[Shahkti]

If the numbers "say" that the work of 15 employees in one centre can be absorbed by the recruitment of 1 employee at the other, it is going to be very hard to come up with a counter-proposal that saves that sort of money. If you take the combined salaries of those 15 and multiply it by around 1.8 you'll get an idea if what you are up against - somewhere near a million pounds at least.

If you are worried about re-employment and if it is feasible, you could take the approach of asking to be transferred to the other centre?

If your skills are up-to-date and relevant to the wider industry, you may be in for a pleasant surprise as you get both the £22.5K and a higher salary in your new job.

I go with the other opinions - take the money. Try to focus on the fact that it's the company's poor cash management in the past which has led to this, and nothing to do with your work.

 

[ccp consultancy]

Only you can decide

In this day and age 22.5K red agreement is a good payment - many companies will only offer statutory money which is 1/4 of what you are being offered.

Is 22.5k tax free enough for you to manage your finances in the meantime whilst you look for another job - are your skills speciallist - will it be hard to secure another job in a similar field / similar status and remuneration

I would not advise gambling 22.5 on a tribunal claim

Tribunals are notoriously stressful, and can end up costing you a lot of money if you are seeking legal representation, and if you win there is no guarentee that you will be awarded anywhere close to 22.5K - unless there is some discriminatory element being used as a selection criteria

The company are consulting, even if you beliece this to be a paperwork exercise - they are doing the minimum of what they are entitled to do

Does the 22.5K cover your statutory payments plus payments in lieu of notice (you should be entitled to approx 8 weeks lieu of notice payment + holiday pay) as well as the statutory redundancy

Personally I would take the money and move to pastures greener

 

[Kev Jaques]

Take the money and run, from my experience with those kinds of things, you are better off out of it tbh. May be a bit harsh but once companies start going down the redundancy route for long time employees then they're either looking for scape goats or clutching at straws or really just don't know what they're doing. Find something where people value you and your knowledge, expertise.

 

[Astaroth]

Need to discuss with them what the exact deal is. £22k redundancy would be good as it is tax free but if it is partially in lieu of notice or "other" payment then you are going to have tax taken off of it.

It sounds like it is going to be over a years salary they will be giving you (and you can start looking for new work now whilst in the consultation period) so you really need to know what the job market is like in your area to work out if you can realistically get another role in under this time. If you can get a job in 3 months then your quids in!

Given your description I am not sure what the "unfair" element is. Cost is a perfectly legitimate reason for redundancy. Are all the team members that do the same job as you been put on notice?

 

[Rasta Pickles]

Firstly, thanks for the replies, much appreciated.

Astaroth; the unfair element is based on the fact that, of the fifteen, there are three members being made redundant who aren't actually anything to do with what we do.....one is "office manager" and two others have roles that interact with everyone in the building.

But the company have lumped their salaries into the pot when calculating which centre is cheaper to perform **our** function.

In short, they aren't comparing like-for-like. Think Bentley claiming they sell more cars than Ford......but they're taking Ford's sales on 1 day a year against their sales over a six-month period, i.e on paper at face value it looks good until you drill down and examine the basis for comparison.

I'm also confused as to why they don't mention cost on the HR1 form, only skills and competence (which none of us have been tested for)?

The statutory pay would be 2 weeks pay for every years service (capped at 52 weeks)......any PILON and outstanding holiday pay etc would be on top.

To everyone who advised taking the money, I'm inclined to agree.....but what if the company decide to change their compromise agreement so that it's, say, 1 weeks pay per year of service (they've changed it in the past)?

That would put the statutory/compromise differential at £8.8k vs about £11k.....would you gamble on a tribunal in those circumstances?

Thanks again, your advice is greatly appreciated

 

[ccp consultancy]

without seeing the paperwork it is hard to provide a definitive answer.

Are you sure on the statutory calculations - the calculations are dependent on age and length of service - dependent on your age at the relevent qualifying period

They shoud provide you with a written details of what the enhanced redundancy package will be - again with 28 years servie you are entitled to 12 weeks notice - of which 30 days of this could be your consultation period

So what does your package look like - 1 weeks pay for every year service (tax free)

Payment in lieu of notice, accrued holiday (taxable)

If your agreement is in writing - then they should not be able to go back on the offer

 

[DavidRyves]

Try to push the settlement up a bit (i.e. as close to the £30k tax-free threshold as possible - a bit of posturing around 'unfair selection criteria', it not being a 'genuine redundacy' and maybe looking at any possible 'discrimination' argument etc. may facilitate this - but in the end take the monet and run. Litigation is not fun and there are raraly any real winners (and think about reputation etc ...). A Compromise Agreement at a reasonable sum with agreed references and mutual confidentiality clauses is the best way forward.

 

[Officebird]

Take the money!!! Why would you gamble it on a tribunal? This isn't a quiz show and you can't get off paying bills because you were a 'good sport' or because you went 'with what the audience said'. Take the money and move on. That's what I would do anyway.

 

[internetspaceships]

Firstly to the OP. Good luck with all this.

Secondly, if I may be so bold. Aren't there plenty of employee based forums with plenty of data on them regarding redundancy procedures etc?

There is a wealth of information out there on sites that are more suited to employees and their issues as opposed to sites geared towards employers.

Maybe you'd get more assistance there?

 

[Bri]

Heres a notion, take the money as we have all said, give yourself a time frame, say three or six months whilst you study the job market in your area.Use some of the money to pay your mortgage for three to six months in advance. Gives you some breathing space, sign on straight away to get jobseekers allowance and get your backside into finding a new job.28 Yrs in one job is a long time, I found out 25 yrs ago that there isnt a job for life anymore.

 

[Rasta Pickles]

Firstly to the OP. Good luck with all this.

Secondly, if I may be so bold. Aren't there plenty of employee based forums with plenty of data on them regarding redundancy procedures etc?

There is a wealth of information out there on sites that are more suited to employees and their issues as opposed to sites geared towards employers.

Maybe you'd get more assistance there?

Thanks for the advice, I have googled but the sites you mention seem few and far between and the ones I have found seem full of what I call "armchair lawyers"?

If you have any links to sites that can genuinely help me, I am more than happy to listen.

Bri: I agree entirely with what you say about a job for life; no-one should expect that but what I don't expect, after 28 years in a job without a single day sick, working through most lunch breaks and turning up in, for example, situations when no-one else does (last winter's snow) is to be made redundant on what I consider dodgy grounds - hence my original question

 

[Bri]

Bri: I agree entirely with what you say about a job for life; no-one should expect that but what I don't expect, after 28 years in a job without a single day sick, working through most lunch breaks and turning up in, for example, situations when no-one else does (last winter's snow) is to be made redundant on what I consider dodgy grounds - hence my original question

Thats why you should cut and run,use it as experience. Hey have you ever thought of working for yourself, long hours, no reward, sometimes no work, then no money to pay for anything but you still have to pay the guys wages at the end of the week. Then the crunch comes when you have to start laying people off because the work has dried up, this causes sleepless nights and heartache but hey we make sure the employees get what they are entitled to. Mr Pickles please remember this is a business forum and we are business owners, hence why we say take the money, its a gift.

When I was employed I always thought I was exceptional, didnt matter, just a number in HR, and when your numbers up.

Sorry to sound so harsh,you do have a chance to follow a dream you may have hidden in your heart with a bit of money to kick it off.

Good Luck Mate and follow your heart not your head.

 

[Rasta Pickles]

Thats why you should cut and run,use it as experience.

Thanks for that, I'm sure you're right.

Hey have you ever thought of working for yourself, long hours, no reward, sometimes no work, then no money to pay for anything but you still have to pay the guys wages at the end of the week. Then the crunch comes when you have to start laying people off because the work has dried up, this causes sleepless nights and heartache but hey we make sure the employees get what they are entitled to.

Erm, not entirely sure what relevance that has to my original question but I thank you for the insight into the mind of a UK business owner, most enlightening.

Mr Pickles please remember this is a business forum and we are business owners, hence why we say take the money, its a gift.

When I was employed I always thought I was exceptional, didnt matter, just a number in HR, and when your numbers up.

Sorry to sound so harsh,you do have a chance to follow a dream you may have hidden in your heart with a bit of money to kick it off.

Good Luck Mate and follow your heart not your head.

Thanks for that, at 46 my options are obviously limited, having spent my entire working life with the same company but who knows what's around the corner.

FWIW, the guy making the proposal was summonsed to London yesterday to see the Company Solicitor.......I believe the Company are somewhat concerned that two of us (with 52 years experience between us) might possibly, given the grammar used in our counter-proposal, tell them to shove their compromise agreement and we'll take our chances before a tribunal.

So all may not be lost