UKBF Community Anarchy ?

[creospace]

I've been around her long enough to remember when it was all fields and so naturally seen a lot of changes but yesterday I saw a series of events on the forum that really made me sad and a little angry:

1) Welcome post:
On a very nice introductory post the first 2 replies were people just trying to flog stuff to the person who was being introduced then later an admin posted and didn't comment on the fact that welcome forum is for welcoming? So is it now a free for all for us to 'get in there' and bombard with our wares to every new member who seeks to be part of the community here?

2) Welcome post
Someone just launched into an open critique of the whois set-up and a snide remark about a holding page of the person again who was just introducing themselves with no request for a review. There wasn't even a welcome to go with the impromptu review.

3) Completed tender post
A tender post that was reopened for the purpose of the original tenderer to show off his new site and give feedback and someone posted that they would get a quote over asap - the tender was closed! So is it now good practice to simply not bother reading other posts within a thread but instead post willy nilly because we are soooo desperate for work we'll do anything to get it- who are these desperados and where have they come from?

4) As a result of the above post an individual thought it would be a good idea to write a chapter and verse review and not bother to copy in the web designer (why is that a problem you ask). Well because anyone that knows us knows we are passionate about delivering the best and if we make a mistake we will damn well fix it but sadly the review was also full or misguided info and didn't pickup/praise areas that their own site lacks. There was also no consideration for what myself and my client would of discussed beforehand regarding budgets and what was required, it was full of assumptions.

So to sum up. The community is now a new business pot where we post our offers where we should be welcoming, we can also take cheap pot shots at those who are seeking to feel part of the community and we can also bombard joe public with advice that whilst might hold some water in our own opinion but we'll ignore the unknowns and send it anyway privately without proceeding with any caution.

Perhaps our new community officer could comment into this? If it carries on this route there wont be much of a community left will there?

 

[10Yetis]

Gary, can I interest you in our services?

 

I must admit, I don't go into the Introductions section as often as I should to welcome new members - this is purely a time thing though. I do really despair at those who use it to try to flog their wares, instead of simply welcoming the new user.

I pick up a little business through this forum, and I must admit it is useful for driving traffic to my site. I get lots of useful information, some great business contacts, and hopefully I give some reasonable advice where I can too. That is the purpose of such a forum - not to blatantly oversell (spam?) new users who are coming in to look for advice on their new ventures.

I do hope the forum keeps the 'community spirit' that has been here since I joined (not because of me, but thats obviously only when I can comment on), and those who are blatantly self-promoting don't ruin the feel of the place.

I think we should all look at new members with a little caution - they can too easily be scared away with heavy bombardment, or undue criticism - when we should be welcoming them into the community and nurturing them as potential contacts (two-way though) for some on here.

 

[Simon-M]

I am new here and am getting some lovelly welcomes. Now to business...who will buy my wares.

On a serious note, I picked this forum over others because of it's tight moderation. So many good forums go to pot because people are just looking to make a fast buck.

Simon

 

[creospace]

Well i rest my case ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ editthere was a spam post above but it got removed)

 

[creacom]

Hi there,

I have moved this to the feedback forum as thats what it is really ! Ive also brought it to the attention of all the mods and people at Sift.

UKBF is growing and with that comes the odd bit of spam, badly placed posts and sometimes the odd argument, dispute and rudeness. On the otherhand the growth also brings more knowledge, a wider range of businesses, experience and skills to share and a healthy dose of fun along the way.

Somedays are easier to moderate than others. Spams are usually dealt with quickly and with the help of everyone we are alerted to them within minutes usually. We very rarely have repeat spammers.

Jacqui

 

[creospace]

Should anyone want to discuss the things mentioned further off board then feel free to contact me, more than happy to help.

 

[Darren Falkingham]

Hi Gary,

All of your concerns are certainly echoed here - we do need to get certain areas of UKBF back in line (especially the "I am ring chisel wholesaler with import to UK, PM me" rubbish).

Paula and I will get our heads together and come back with a few proposals.

Thanks again for raising the issues,
Darren

 

[Sally@CC]

What a shame. As a newbie myself I got a brilliant welcome, people have been so helpful and I hope my odd little comments have helped someone else on their way.

The good news is that this thread exists, hence someone is looking out for the community spirit.

 

[Jayne]

I used to just about live on UKBF and totally agree with your Gary. I find myself just coming on here to chat, as I wouldn't want to ask questions on here any more as I wouldn't want to be spammed or bitched at. It's an all out for themselves world today and this, 'pick on the little guy' is getting all too common.

Where has the UKBF love gone?

Jayne

 

[Lisette]

I am with you on this Gary. I recall not that long ago getting caught up in a post where someone was very rude about the website of someone who was introducing themselves and it sounds like this practice continues. In this one a number of the members basically shared their disappointment and I think this can be quite effective. What a shame people cannot manage to simply welcome new members rather than seeing them as an opportunity to sell or criticise.

Ref the website, are you saying that someone looked at a website that was positioned as complete and the owner happy and send a PM to the owner criticising it and presumably touting their own "superior skills" - that really is awful. If there were errors they spotted or ideas for improvement they should have pm'd the web developer or at worst posted a comment but to pitch for business in this way is v bad form. I guess this must have been someone fairly new to forums who does not understand that the nature of a forum is that you earn a reputation and that it is this which gets you work (or not) and that ‘dissing’ others is not an effective marketing strategy. Luckily there are enough buyers who make purchasing judgements based at least in part on someone's business ethics to discourage such behaviour and reward those who conduct themselves well. What is it about forums that causes people to lose sight of normal social skills - a post that says "xyz looks nice .... but I wonder if you might like to look at abc" would work perfectly in such a situation and much more like what one would don in a face to face.

In terms of solutions I wonder if a certain amount of education might be needed. Clearly some of this can be members simply posting that they were disappointed to read someone criticise the OP in an introduction post, or jump in to push business. And in terms of the business touting perhaps there can be a button for moderators that is clicked which deletes the post and sends the poster a PM saying that this is not what an introduction post is all about. Clearly this is about educating potential long staying members of the forum - the one off spammers can just have their posts deleted.

Lisette

 

[creospace]

All of your concerns are certainly echoed here - we do need to get certain areas of UKBF back in line (especially the "I am ring chisel wholesaler with import to UK, PM me" rubbish).

That's great - tbh I wasn't really getting out our international one hit wonder visitors as they can easily be dealt with and never return. This is more to do with ongoing English speaking and culturally aware members who do not quite 'get it' when it comes to contributing to such a forum.

I know that building and sustaining a community is no easy task, I really do and I know there are no easy or quick fixes, it will take time to fix but action should be taken never the less and it's encouraging to myself and i'm sure to others that you take it very seriously.

Here's a few ideas:

1) Get the sift team to have a greater presence on the forums, joining in and mixing not just some untouchable super elders looking over from above. Possibly with the introduction of Paula this will resolve itself?

2) Open commented moderation. When a post is moderated and someone is addressed for their behaviour make sure it is publicly noted on the board for others and newcomers to see because bad behaviour spawns bad behaviour so good forum education will promote continued good behaviour. Often people sign up say yes to T&C never read them etc.

3) Rewarding good forum behaviour or the encouraging of rewarding as we do have the thanks system. Positive enforcement I think they call this.

Remember a successful community doesn't need a 'common unity' but instead should celebrate and tolerate the differences of it's members.

 

[creacom]

I agree with you Lisette ( and you Gary ), it is a matter of people needing to know that there is a basic level of politeness needed. This is where we verge into the whole "yeah but what about freedom of speech" - in my opinion, if it offends people - it doesnt belong here.

Jacqui

 

[Darren Falkingham]

Here's a few ideas:

1) Get the sift team to have a greater presence on the forums, joining in and mixing not just some untouchable super elders looking over from above. Possibly with the introduction of Paula this will resolve itself?

Hi Gary,

Yes, absolutely. I've admittedly found it difficult to contribute so often to the forums purely through time pressures in my job. Dan Martin gets involved when he can, and Paula will definitely be getting more involved ... and I will keep trying!

2) Open commented moderation. When a post is moderated and someone is addressed for their behaviour make sure it is publicly noted on the board for others and newcomers to see because bad behaviour spawns bad behaviour so good forum education will promote continued good behaviour. Often people sign up say yes to T&C never read them etc.

This is a very interesting idea. I mean, we're all adults, we know what is and isn't acceptable behaviour when speaking to each other, so why not? It will cause a few tiffs, no doubt, but let's give this open moderation idea some more thought.

What do people think about this approach?

3) Rewarding good forum behaviour or the encouraging of rewarding as we do have the thanks system. Positive enforcement I think they call this.

The Thanks system does have its detractors, and I can understand why - it's no guarantee of an honest 'thank you', but it's a start. If there are other concepts you've seen elsewhere, it would be good to know about them. This is another area where Paula will get involved, by looking at other online communities to identify good practices in managing forums.

All good stuff! As ever, I really welcome the airing of any frustrations, recommendations, ideas, everything. I'm convinced that UKBF can grow even further, and that we can manage the associated growing pains!

Cheers,
Darren

 

[DotNetWebs]

...This is more to do with ongoing English speaking and culturally aware members who do not quite 'get it' when it comes to contributing to such a forum...

I hate to say it but I agree with you Gary. Some of my recent experiences on this forum have made me less inclined to participate in threads that not are of direct relevance to me.

Unfortunately this forum is becoming a victim of its own success. The more popular a forum becomes the more it attracts certain types of people. Spammers I can cope with, what annoys me more are people you genuinely try and help or converse with, who do not like what they hear and respond with unnecessary aggression.

Regards

Dotty

 

[RayB]

I agree too Gary.

In the meantime, why not buy some lovely Flyers from RayB - it will cheer you up no end!

 

[Paula Barrett]

Hi guys,

This post is really useful for me as in my new role I want to really look at ways in which we can improve this forum and your ideas are incredibly helpful.

I've been thinking about this topic this afternoon and have a few ideas of how we could possibly improve things:

Creating a sticky thread at the top of the forum with sub-sections for rules and expectations of behaviour. This would also include FAQ etc. We would then encourage all members to make themselves familiar with it. Your suggestions for what shape this could take would be very useful.

Having more visible moderation - something which was mentioned above. If we make it clear that certain behaviour is unacceptable and what we are doing about it then people will hopefully learn that posting spam or antisocial comments etc. is not productive or welcome.

Also hopefully my presence on the site can provide a focal point for any problems - you are welcome to directly contact me if you are unhappy with anything on the site.

I could become the UKBF agony aunt as it were!

Paula

 

[Songbird]

Using the word anarchy in a pejorative sense makes me sad.

Seriously, though, I've been on a lot of forums in my time and this is certainly one of the best ones when it comes to spam and aggression. It's also one of the largest. This kind of this is completely unavoidable; all you've got to do is make it clear to people that sign up that this kind of thing won't be tolerated, and then they'll either buck their ideas up because they recognise that this is a fantastic place for help and advice, or shoot themselves in the foot and leave, never to return.

I think it's important to bear in mind that, even though this place might not be as 'nice' as it used to be (I wouldn't know, having signed up comparatively recently), the nastiness is under control when compared to other places in the internet, and isn't so rampant as to turn legitimate posters off.

 

[HC-Martin]

I could become the UKBF agony aunt as it were!

Ahhhh....that would be nice...

I also agree with Gary on this. Out of interest, is Lisette's notion correct? I presume it was for a site you designed? That really is out of order!

 

[DuaneJackson]

This kind of this is completely unavoidable;

Is the second "this" an anagram?

 

[CMW]

As a newbie:redface:, so far I have received a great welcome, however I am also a seasoned moderator at another site - non business related, and unfortunately its part of the course to get spammers.

Sometimes its easy to jump on them and to sort them out, a warning through pm usually works, especially if you include the word 'ban' in there

I was wondering if the forum had thought about a flagging system?

It may be the way to go, and with the help of the community could become a good tool to impede these sorts of posts.

just a thought anyway

And hi everyone


Cj

Opps sorry - I must learn to open my eyes WIDE...

I've just seen your flagging sytem... doh

 

[An Oasis]

Yup one of the reason lots of us have stopped posting as much as we used to. We still look out for posters that we know but there is not the time to spend in depth on the forum...

Sift need to "employ" more mods, and return the forum to its previous balance.

 

[computerfaq]

I agree with Richard entirely, I don't like posting anymore, because of the risk of getting spammed all the time. It can be quite annoying.

 

[KM-Tiger]

I was wondering if the forum had thought about a flagging system?

Do you mean "Report this post" or the "thanks" thing?

I'd like to see the "thanks" be able to go negative.

 

[CMW]

Do you mean "Report this post" or the "thanks" thing?

I'd like to see the "thanks" be able to go negative.

The site where I mod at, we have a red flag in the corner, you have the 'stop' sign.

We work it like this.

If anyone is spamming and a mod can't get to it in time, we ask that anyone offended sends a pm, we (as in mods) then hit the flag, and it comes up as a warning that only mods can see.

A pm is sent automatically to the offender, and warned one more hit on the flag and they are banned full stop.

We found this the best way to do it, as sometimes folks can get a little malicious, and try and get someone banned for no reason.

The weird thing is though, once folks were aware mods were allowed to do this and actually bothered to read forum rules, the spamming went down, and as I said before pm and the word 'ban' works well enough

 

[Lasting Designs]

I agree too Gary.

In the meantime, why not buy some lovely Flyers from RayB - it will cheer you up no end!

Ray - You're such a cad

 

[Simon-M]

I agree too Gary.

In the meantime, why not buy some lovely Flyers from RayB - it will cheer you up no end!

I got some flyers from RayB and they were not very pleasant

Only Joking. RayB's flyers are second to none.

Where did none go anyway....

 

Positive enforcement I think they call this.

Positive reinforcement

...but no thanks required!

 

[Bathead]

Do you mean "Report this post" or the "thanks" thing?

I'd like to see the "thanks" be able to go negative.

Good idea. Simple "thanks" or "no thanks". You can trace both so you know it's not your competitor screwing you! . "no thanks" is only ever going to be used if a member starts being annoying or a spammer. Maybe we accept that we may all get one or two for whatever reason but it soon shows up the serial offenders or the ones who are upsetting a broader crowd.

Mick

 

[Alice3537]

Good idea. Simple "thanks" or "no thanks". You can trace both so you know it's not your competitor screwing you! . "no thanks" is only ever going to be used if a member starts being annoying or a spammer. Maybe we accept that we may all get one or two for whatever reason but it soon shows up the serial offenders or the ones who are upsetting a broader crowd.

Mick

'No thanks' is an interesting idea until you factor in those with a grudge who are prepared to register multiple accounts just to take advantage of that option! And, yes, I really do mean it! You'd be amazed how some people can get!

 

[Bathead]

'No thanks' is an interesting idea until you factor in those with a grudge who are prepared to register multiple accounts just to take advantage of that option! And, yes, I really do mean it! You'd be amazed how some people can get!

But the "no thanks" can be tracked back to the poster, and will not look right if done out of context. Or maybe just have it disabled until 50 posts.

Mick

 

[Alice3537]

But the "no thanks" can be tracked back to the poster, and will not look right if done out of context. Or maybe just have it disabled until 50 posts.

Mick

You certainly could disable such a feature until a certain number of posts, which causes more work in the coding.

To be honest, I feel that a negative method of rating would cause more problems than it solves. I've been both moderator and admin on a variety of sites and just feel that this would inflame feelngs rather than suppress them.

In itself, it's a nice idea, but one always has to consider the end user and, believe me, that's not always easy to do. If I thought for one SECOND some members on here would view that as constructive feedback, I'd agree in an instant. However, I KNOW that they won't!!!

Personally, I view a positive reinforcement as more productive than a negative one. But that's just my view.

 

[Hayles]

I like the idea of open moderation. It would be good for everyone to see the response spammers get from the forum.

May even a trial to see if it helps?

H

 

[RayB]

I like the idea of open moderation. It would be good for everyone to see the response spammers get from the forum.

May even a trial to see if it helps?

H

Or perhaps we could introduce public floggings?

 

[cjd]

I seem to the only one who isn't bothered much by any of this.

I like the fact the the forum is growing and so what if that means we get a few wide boys? - they soon get sorted out.

I really dislike the 'hello, buy my stuff' messages but I'm grateful for the fact that it marks the poster out as someone not worth bothering with.

I see hardly any spam on the boards and what there is is gone pretty quickly. (I don't know how much the boards suffer from robot generated spam but we eliminated it entirely with a simple registration trick.)

I very rarely get PM spam.

If I want a sensible discussion about something I go to the members area where there is a degree of protection from the children in the playground. (I was originally sceptical of this kind of apartheid - and we will have to wait until the invoice arrives to see whether it will continue to be used - but atm it seems to work.)

My only real remaining criticism of this place is the lack of a library of good information built by the users - we really must start using stickies - good information is just lost and I'm now refusing to answer questions that are repeatedly asked by new members simply because I've answered them too many times.

It's a damn shame.

 

My only real remaining criticism of this place is the lack of a library of good information built by the users - we really must start using stickies - good information is just lost and I'm now refusing to answer questions that are repeatedly asked by new members simply because I've answered them too many times.

agreed one just can't be bothered to answer the same questions time and time again.

Earl

 

I seem to the only one who isn't bothered much by any of this

No you're not - the ability to skim read is great!

I like the idea of a community and I think we should try to preserve that. However, the reality is the bigger a place gets the more difficult it becomes to maintain a sense of community.

 

[Bathead]

Or perhaps we could introduce public floggings?

I like where you are coming from. I'm into selective culling of the riff raff and those that annoy me, but I suppose flogging is a good compromise.

Mick

 

[KM-Tiger]

My only real remaining criticism of this place is the lack of a library of good information built by the users - we really must start using stickies - good information is just lost and I'm now refusing to answer questions that are repeatedly asked by new members simply because I've answered them too many times.

It's a damn shame.

Absolutely right.

I'm probably going to get told off in a minute or two, as I've just bumped your excellent piece on telephone numbers so it doesn't get lost. It was on its way to oblivion on page 12.

 

[RayB]

Absolutely right.

I'm probably going to get told off in a minute or two, as I've just bumped your excellent piece on telephone numbers so it doesn't get lost. It was on its way to oblivion on page 12.

How do you bump a thread :|