Travellers

[Paul Norman]

This is to clear the other thread of going off topic, which is not totally fair on the person who started it.

The topic has come up about Travellers. Now firstly, travellers are not really an ethnic group at all, but the government have decided to lump together Roma, boatlifers, van lifers showmen, and others, into one group.

It is for that reason alone that I ask the question using the terms.

Now, I am aware that not all Travellers are law abiding people. Just as not all white middle class people are, either.

But lets be blunt. Would you do business with a person knowing them to be a Traveller?

 

[Newchodge]

Yes, although I am not sure how I would know.

 

[fisicx]

Depends on what that business is.

Resurface my drive? No.

Sell them stuff? Probably.

 

[Paul Norman]

Depends on what that business is.

Resurface my drive? No.

Sell them stuff? Probably.

What about buying software from them, say?

 

[Paul Norman]

Yes, although I am not sure how I would know.

Like all these things, you might know, or you might not. But if it is not a red line for you, you are less likely to find out! But the fact that, for the most part, you would not know is a very crucial point.

 

[fisicx]

What about buying software from them, say?

Depends on the software.

If some bloke in the pub offers me the auth key to something then no.

If they are doing some bespoke work then maybe.

You rarely buy software these days. What you buy is a license so you can download the application. Can't remeber the last time I even saw a software CD

 

[MaamesHamza]

It’s true

 

[Paul Norman]

Depends on the software.

If some bloke in the pub offers me the auth key to something then no.

If they are doing some bespoke work then maybe.

You rarely buy software these days. What you buy is a license so you can download the application. Can't remeber the last time I even saw a software CD

I am wondering why they would be offering you an authority key in the pub? And not selling you software, or development work, in the same way any other software provider might.

And yes. It would most probably be a license!

 

[Newchodge]

Depends on the software.

If some bloke in the pub offers me the auth key to something then no.

If they are doing some bespoke work then maybe.

You rarely buy software these days. What you buy is a license so you can download the application. Can't remeber the last time I even saw a software CD

If some bloke in the pub offers me anything dodgy I would not do business with them. However that would not depend on whether or not knew their ethnic/race or whatever grouping.

It is interesting that you have assumed a traveller would be either offering to tarmac your driveway or selling you something in the pub. I am not wure that Paul Newman's business operates in either way.

 

[Paul Norman]

If some bloke in the pub offers me anything dodgy I would not do business with them. However that would not depend on whether or not knew their ethnic/race or whatever grouping.

It is interesting that you have assumed a traveller would be either offering to tarmac your driveway or selling you something in the pub. I am not wure that Paul Newman's business operates in either way.

Thank you.

Of course, my business does not operate in that way at all. None of the people in my family operate in that way, either. It is, however, an interesting assumption that I would. In fact, my various businesses have mostly operated from offices or warehouses, until recently, when, like many businesses, we have re-evaluated the value of a physical office.

 

[japancool]

Hmm, I'm not aware of the word "Traveller" being used for boatlifers or van lifers. It specifically refers to (incorrectly) Roma, or more specifically, Irish Travellers.

Irish Travellers - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

We're not talking here about people who simply choose to live on a boat. There are those who confuse the term, but that's their own ignorance.

Are you, in fact, an Irish Traveller, Paul?

 

[Paul Norman]

Hmm, I'm not aware of the word "Traveller" being used for boatlifers or van lifers. It specifically refers to (incorrectly) Roma, or more specifically, Irish Travellers.

Irish Travellers - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

We're not talking here about people who simply choose to live on a boat. There are those who confuse the term, but that's their own ignorance.

Are you, in fact, an Irish Traveller, Paul?

I am not an Irish Traveller.

The definition arises in the governments approach to persons whose lifestyle is nomadic, and whose primary place of residence is not a house, or in one place.

Or course, it is not entirely accurate in many ways. A lot of people who are moving around using caravans are in fact not gypsy people at all, but just using an expedient way of working in a mobile way.

For the record, we are Roma.

 

[STDFR33]

No, I wouldn't do business with a traveler.

Even selling them something, you're probably going to shafted in some way.

 

[Paul Norman]

No, I wouldn't do business with a traveler.

Even selling them something, you're probably going to shafted in some way.

In what way do you feel I might shaft you?


Of course, in law you have a perfect right to chose with whom you do business. But I am interested to know in what way you believe I would shaft you? I have only ever been shafted by non Travellers.

However, at least you have given a straight forward, and honest, answer to my question, and I sincerely appreciate that.

 

[Newchodge]

In what way do you feel I might shaft you?


Of course, in law you have a perfect right to chose with whom you do business. But I am interested to know in what way you believe I would shaft you? I have only ever been shafted by non Travellers.

However, at least you have given a straight forward, and honest, answer to my question, and I sincerely appreciate that.

Actually, that is not quite right. The Equalities Act applies to the provision of services.

 

[japancool]

The definition arises in the governments approach to persons whose lifestyle is nomadic, and whose primary place of residence is not a house, or in one place.

I can't remember what the 2021 census said, but apparently, the 2011 census said the following:

White: Gypsy or Irish Traveller - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It does not appear to encompass people who simply choose to live nomadically. If people are using it that way, it's incorrect.

 

[STDFR33]

In what way do you feel I might shaft you?


Of course, in law you have a perfect right to chose with whom you do business. But I am interested to know in what way you believe I would shaft you? I have only ever been shafted by non Travellers.

However, at least you have given a straight forward, and honest, answer to my question, and I sincerely appreciate that.

Not you, per se.

First hand experience tells me to avoid doing business with travelers. I know it's short sighted, but that's how I feel.

I probably boils down to the chimp paradox. Once you have had several experiences with a type of person your brain recognises that type of person and your automatic reaction (though with training you can stop it from being an automatic reaction) is to become defensive. It's a primitive instinct.

I could have had a difficult experience with people with flat caps, and my instinct would be to avoid people with flat caps.

 

[Newchodge]

I can't remember what the 2021 census said, but apparently, the 2011 census said the following:

White: Gypsy or Irish Traveller - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It does not appear to encompass people who simply choose to live nomadically. If people are using it that way, it's incorrect.

Frankly I find it hard to apply the word 'incorrect' (or 'correct'[) to any definition of people that relies on their skin colour, appearance, beliefs, lifestyle or anything else to categorise them. I accept that, for assessing someone's religion, for example, describing them as Christian Protestant may be useful, but I cannot think of any other reason to categorise the on that basis.

 

[japancool]

Frankly I find it hard to apply the word 'incorrect' (or 'correct'[) to any definition of people that relies on their skin colour, appearance, beliefs, lifestyle or anything else to categorise them. I accept that, for assessing someone's religion, for example, describing them as Christian Protestant may be useful, but I cannot think of any other reason to categorise the on that basis.

Which is exactly why I detest the term BAME. Or, come to that "people of colour", that is creeping into our media. What, pink is not a colour?

 

[ctrlbrk]

But lets be blunt. Would you do business with a person knowing them to be a Traveller?

I found once a nice definition of prejudice. Something like:

The tendency to judge a person because they belong to a larger group, instead of judging them based on their individual character.

 

[Newchodge]

Which is exactly why I detest the term BAME. Or, come to that "people of colour", that is creeping into our media. What, pink is not a colour?

I think the reason it is so difficult is that the intetnion is to find a phrase that means 'not like us', without, of course, actually saying that.

 

[japancool]

I think the reason it is so difficult is that the intetnion is to find a phrase that means 'not like us', without, of course, actually saying that.

Apparently, as a BAME person, I have special needs and also require special treatment.

 

[fisicx]

I am wondering why they would be offering you an authority key in the pub? And not selling you software, or development work, in the same way any other software provider might.

And yes. It would most probably be a license!

I wouldn't equate someone with a nomadic lifestyle with those I normally see as travellers. Travellers to me are those driving untaxed and insured white vans parking their caravans in the local tesco carpark (which is where they were last week).

I'd have no problem buying services from someone living on a boat or backpacking though Asia as long as they delivered.

A few years back when I was living in Essex I did some development work for someone. They had paid the 50% deposit but then threatened me if I didn't give them the whole project on their terms (ie: not paying). A bit of digging and I discovered they were living on an illegal site and made a habit of making threats. Those are the type of Traveller I'm referring to. It was also discovered they had 7 white vans around the country all with the same registration!

 

[thetiger2015]

I wouldn't equate someone with a nomadic lifestyle with those I normally see as travellers. Travellers to me are those driving untaxed and insured white vans parking their caravans in the local tesco carpark (which is where they were last week).

...because the media have pigeon holed people in to this category of 'travellers bad' and tar everyone with the same brush.

With business, it's sometimes about the person and how comfy you are with them. I don't think I've ever been bothered about someone's background.....unless they said they were a mass murderer or cannibal.

I've had people from all different backgrounds working on my property recently too (trade types), I don't particularly care about their background. If they do a good job, they do a good job. If something gets stolen, that's a thief, it has no impact on the rest of the people on-site.

How do you define traveller these days? The press definition is someone who tows a caravan around with a brand new 4x4 that they haven't taxed. This is untrue. There are many 'techy' types who live in converted vans, travel around the world but operate from a laptop. For example, we had a British web tech guy who lived in Bali. He worked by the beach, on a laptop, a few hours a day at £200 per hour. Is he a traveller? Or is he cool? He didn't have a house....the press would call him an ultra cool elite traveller...put him in a caravan in Leeds and he suddenly becomes a 'bad man'.

 

[Bob Morgan]

Brass is Brass!

 

[japancool]

Well, this question comes up in a different form on this forum quite often.

Would you do business with a Chinese supplier? Or an Indian supplier?

The answer to that is often "no". Unless you have a personal relationship with them. Would you need the same personal relationship with a British supplier? No. Why not? Because experience tells us that Chinese or Indian suppliers aren't reliable and tend to scam you.

Whether that's fair to say is open for debate. These attitudes don't come up out of nowhere. Sometimes they're justified, sometimes they aren't.

But sometimes the attitude is acceptable towards one group, and not acceptable towards another.

 

[MBE2017]

I used to trade with travellers on a weekly basis, many use gold jewellery to carry as a source of wealth, and often pawn it for short periods. That said, it was done on the express requirement it was not to be sold, they often had very personal memories attached to the items.

I used to get on well with some guy high up in their community, found him totally trustworthy but he expected the same in return. His two sons were different, and I ended up brawling with them when they stole some items from myself. Their father found us fighting, said something in their lingo, everything was handed back and he dealt out the punishment. He felt very embarrassed they had tried it on with his friend, I never had any problems after that day, but they also knew I wouldn’t just let them walk away if they nicked anything.

As with anyone, good and bad, but I find most will honour a deal.

 

[Paul Norman]

I found once a nice definition of prejudice. Something like:

That is, in my opinion, a fairly good definition.

 

[Paul Norman]

Not you, per se.

Although, of course, it does include me.

Which is entirely OK. We would, as a result of your honestly expressed answer, never do business.

 

[estwig]

I won't have anything to do with any individual, who thinks it's acceptable to take a poo in a public park.

Soz for being graphic, there is a line in the sand here, apart from this I'm good to go!

 

[Paul Norman]

Frankly I find it hard to apply the word 'incorrect' (or 'correct'[) to any definition of people that relies on their skin colour, appearance, beliefs, lifestyle or anything else to categorise them. I accept that, for assessing someone's religion, for example, describing them as Christian Protestant may be useful, but I cannot think of any other reason to categorise the on that basis.

I think that where you are very right is that categorising people, and then behaving towards them based on the assumption that everyone in the group is the same, is the issue here.

There are valid assumptions. I assume that a Protestant Christian believes in God. That is an essential part of being in that group. But if I assume they won't buy a loaf of bread on Sunday, that might be an invalid assumption. But not a bad one. If, however, I assume they are child abusers because a Pastor in 1965 was pro-smacking, that is over the line.

Thus with this topic. Some Travellers did some damage last week. I will then extend that to an assumption that the next person I meet who lives in a caravan also will do that. Some kids did some damage in the village last week. I will assume that the next teenager I meet will do that. All of that is, in my view, over the line.

 

[IanSuth]

My take on this (and reasons)

My step brother worked with some local Roma when he ran away/left home aged 16 in the late 80's, they took him in (his birth mother was loosely related to the ones he stayed with) for a winter he stayed on their semi legal site (they had expanded onto a disused railway line) and earned his keep dismantling batteries for scrap. When they went off on the road for the summer he moved into a squat and then got himself into trouble with the law

Our farm was plagued with stuff going missing, which may or may not have been related to the many people who would turn up in a pick up looking for scrap (including the ones he lived with)

I ride a motorbike and so have been through the years and years to many places that refused to serve you if you had a crash helmet or let you camp if you were on a bike. Throughout the 90's only 1 campsite (Roundhills) in the New Forest would allow bikes and even there you were shoved out in a side field with no true toilet block just an unlit tardis, all because some Red&White had a fight in the late 70's.

I have lots of mates with Tatoos - that also used to cause prejudice (not so much nowadays)

I have a bike riding mate with tattoos who moved onto a narrow boat (he took a gamble house prices had peaked in the late 90's and sold his house aiming to buy back in without a mortgage but got it wrong) When he split with his wife he also did 2 years living in a converted horsebox - but by profession he was a network engineer at the local university. One of his neighbouring boats was owned by a greasy smelly looking guy who was a motorbike courier and another was a botanical artist. The biggest issue on that towpath was p1ssheads wandering back from town late night throwing things (or people) in the canal but local houseowners kept complaining the boats didnt look pretty as they werent painted like Rosie&Jim's

People are people - whether they live in a 5 bed detached house, a van, a boat or a yurt. Yes they tend to be a product of their upbringing, but that is more to do with role models and family support than the type of roof over their head. There are good and bad in every "group", if you make a decision based on the group a person belongs to, you run the risk of missing a good deal or getting shafted - treat each interaction on the basis of the person you are dealing with not whether they are yellow, pink, brown, settled, traveller or a visitor from Mars

 

[DontAsk]

Well, this question comes up in a different form on this forum quite often.

Would you do business with a Chinese supplier? Or an Indian supplier?

Or French or German, post Brexit?

The answer to that is often "no". Unless you have a personal relationship with them. Would you need the same personal relationship with a British supplier? No. Why not?

Because it's a lot easier to deal with British suppliers in the British court system.

 

[DontAsk]

Sell them stuff? Probably.

Not if you are Tesco, they will just walk out with stuff. This was a small branch, where SWMBO worked, with no dedicated security and no staff willing to stand up to them.

 

[Newchodge]

SWMBO

?

 

[fisicx]

Not if you are Tesco, they will just walk out with stuff. This was a small branch, where SWMBO worked, with no dedicated security and no staff willing to stand up to them.

They parked up last year in a road near my local Sainsbury’s swarmed in the store and swarmed back out with thousands of pounds of goods. Staff locked the doors the next day when they were spotted returning. The petrol station had young lads trying to fill up cars and bikes. All pumps were disabled.

Like others have said, there is a whole range of people who like to roam. The only ones we remember are those for whom the law and decency is just an inconvenience.

 

[NickGrogan]

I won't have anything to do with any individual, who thinks it's acceptable to take a poo in a public park.

Soz for being graphic, there is a line in the sand here, apart from this I'm good to go!

French People?

 

[NickGrogan]

Well, this question comes up in a different form on this forum quite often.

Would you do business with a Chinese supplier? Or an Indian supplier?

The answer to that is often "no". Unless you have a personal relationship with them. Would you need the same personal relationship with a British supplier? No. Why not? Because experience tells us that Chinese or Indian suppliers aren't reliable and tend to scam you.

Whether that's fair to say is open for debate. These attitudes don't come up out of nowhere. Sometimes they're justified, sometimes they aren't.

But sometimes the attitude is acceptable towards one group, and not acceptable towards another.

If they're based overseas, then a different legal system applies, this makes getting things sorted out a lot harder. Its why a lot of offshore Indian software houses have offices in Europe or America.

I used to work for one, and I know that they lied about the skills the staff had because they asked me to lie to the clients.

 

[IanSuth]

?

She Who Must Be Obeyed = wife

 

[NickGrogan]

Which is exactly why I detest the term BAME. Or, come to that "people of colour", that is creeping into our media. What, pink is not a colour?

Since you asked.

The Color Pink Doesn't Exist, According To Science

Pink may be a scientific impossibility, but we are still tickled pink to have this color party crash the color spectrum.

historydaily.org