Travellers

[apricot]

The problem I have is, as soon as the person I employ have enough money to travel, they become traveller! Esp youngs have no understanding for saving for future, they love spending as soon as money hits their pocket.

 

[The Byre]

For the record, we are Roma.

And going by my experience (as many here seem to go by their experience of dealing with people) that makes you MORE trustworthy and not less!

I've done a fair bit of trading with Gypsies, both Roma and Sinti - though mostly Sinti as I was living in Germany. It started with me trying to fix a caravan in our front yard and Emil came into the yard. He looked, spoke and was dressed just like Chico Marx (when he was in character) even down to the soft hat.

Emil was totally Sinti. He spoke broken German but could not read or write. His philosophy was that he did all the work and wrangled the deals, the women do the reading and writing.

"Oh Bossa! Caravanna no good a Boss!"
"Yes I know! It's completely rotten!" And I made my point by pushing a screwdriver through the floor.
"Oh Boss! Wadda you wanna caravanna like that a for Boss?"
"I don't!"

Emil thought for a while and then said, "I gotta a good caravanna! Big. She nice. Tabbert. Shower, heating, cooker, twin axle, all a nice!"
I told him that was just peachy for him, but I did not have a good caravan.
"Bossa! Bossa! I sell you my caravan!"
I sucked air and told him that I didn't have the cash for a good caravan.
"I sell you mya caravanna for one thousand Marks!"

In today's money, a thousand Marks is over a thousand pounds. Not much for a twin axle Tabbert. It sounded like one of those too-good-to-be-true deals, but worth a punt. Emil told me where he was parked and I agreed to go there and take a look at this caravanna.

I drove there and six people were living in the caravan. Emil, wife, four children and a dog. It looked a bit scruffy on the outside and had a cracked rear window, but inside it was spotless. It was just what we needed - big separate bedroom, bathroom with shower and loo, just as Emil had described.

The deal was that I should give him a thousand Marks the next day and he would use that to get his family a better caravan from France and two days later, he would return and I could pick up his old one.

We shook hands on the deal and the next day I gave him a thousand Marks and despite all the prejudicial warnings about doing deals with Sinti, he stuck to the deal and did not leg-it with my money!

After that, I bought all kinds of things from Emil. Generators, tools, you name it and he got it somewhere. We also told the authorities that his young 16-year-old daughter and her new husband were living with us, so that the boy could get a driving license. I sold a nice Merc E260 to Emil's uncle for a knock-down price and a Merc 7.5-ton van to a friend of his. I even helped some of his family with official forms and contracts.

Every deal cash and every deal straight. The word was the bond.

Germans? If it ain't written into the contract, it won't happen. Buyer beware!

Brits? Half the time, it won't happen, written down or not.

 

[Alan]

Hmm, now Emil sounds a regular nice guy - but you don't clarify where or how he obtained these bargain Caravans, Generators, tools. It would help if you mentioned you saw the original bill of sales, rather than

he got it somewhere

 

[The Byre]

Caravans are registered in nearly all EU countries. They have their own paperwork, VIN and logbook and have to pass an MoT inspection every two years.

 

[simon field]

The problem I have is, as soon as the person I employ have enough money to travel, they become traveller! Esp youngs have no understanding for saving for future, they love spending as soon as money hits their pocket.

Pay them less, so they can’t escape!

 

[MOIC]

And going by my experience (as many here seem to go by their experience of dealing with people) that makes you MORE trustworthy and not less!

I've done a fair bit of trading with Gypsies, both Roma and Sinti - though mostly Sinti as I was living in Germany. It started with me trying to fix a caravan in our front yard and Emil came into the yard. He looked, spoke and was dressed just like Chico Marx (when he was in character) even down to the soft hat.

Emil was totally Sinti. He spoke broken German but could not read or write. His philosophy was that he did all the work and wrangled the deals, the women do the reading and writing.

"Oh Bossa! Caravanna no good a Boss!"
"Yes I know! It's completely rotten!" And I made my point by pushing a screwdriver through the floor.
"Oh Boss! Wadda you wanna caravanna like that a for Boss?"
"I don't!"

Emil thought for a while and then said, "I gotta a good caravanna! Big. She nice. Tabbert. Shower, heating, cooker, twin axle, all a nice!"
I told him that was just peachy for him, but I did not have a good caravan.
"Bossa! Bossa! I sell you my caravan!"
I sucked air and told him that I didn't have the cash for a good caravan.
"I sell you mya caravanna for one thousand Marks!"

In today's money, a thousand Marks is over a thousand pounds. Not much for a twin axle Tabbert. It sounded like one of those too-good-to-be-true deals, but worth a punt. Emil told me where he was parked and I agreed to go there and take a look at this caravanna.

I drove there and six people were living in the caravan. Emil, wife, four children and a dog. It looked a bit scruffy on the outside and had a cracked rear window, but inside it was spotless. It was just what we needed - big separate bedroom, bathroom with shower and loo, just as Emil had described.

The deal was that I should give him a thousand Marks the next day and he would use that to get his family a better caravan from France and two days later, he would return and I could pick up his old one.

We shook hands on the deal and the next day I gave him a thousand Marks and despite all the prejudicial warnings about doing deals with Sinti, he stuck to the deal and did not leg-it with my money!

After that, I bought all kinds of things from Emil. Generators, tools, you name it and he got it somewhere. We also told the authorities that his young 16-year-old daughter and her new husband were living with us, so that the boy could get a driving license. I sold a nice Merc E260 to Emil's uncle for a knock-down price and a Merc 7.5-ton van to a friend of his. I even helped some of his family with official forms and contracts.

Every deal cash and every deal straight. The word was the bond.

Germans? If it ain't written into the contract, it won't happen. Buyer beware!

Brits? Half the time, it won't happen, written down or not.

A nice anecdote.

Do you think that's the same experience most will have?

 

[Paul Norman]

If you need a plumber do you call George or Zak ?
Would you rather Jack or Tristram fixed your car's electronics ?
Wayne or Stephen for a replacement roof tile ?

Fairly or unfairly, we all have pre-conceived notions about individuals or groups...

Irish humour
Scottish thrift
German efficiency
Italian flair
English batting collapse

and so on.

This must be largely true, surely.

I guess it is then about how we proceed with that in relation to individuals.

I suspect none of us do that correctly every time!

 

[IanSuth]

A nice anecdote.

Do you think that's the same experience most will have?

Honest answer with the ones I came across in Sussex.

Go into a negotiation aiming to get a fair deal for both of you and with some degree of trust and you will make a trading partner for life.

Go into it seeing if you can pull a fast one - they have more experience of that than you and you will lose

It is about mutual respect

 

[simon field]

Everyone’s taking extra measures to secure their heating oil round here, as it’s now worth 3 times the price!

W️S!

 

[Gordon - Commercial Finance]

The idea of prejudice is quite an interesting one. Often people's ideas about a community are based on a small portion of that community who are most visible. So it is I think with travellers - its always fresh in people's minds the bad experience they have had with travellers, and the "law-abiding" and thus relatively invisible population of the same group are easily forgotten.

I spent some time a few years back in South Africa. Speaking to white people there about the black majority, they felt they were justified in expressing prejudice against the whole black community because (their words not mine) "the majority of them are criminals". So it would be prejudicial to suggest that all black south africans are criminals if in fact it was a small percentage of that community giving the rest a bad name, but would it be so if statistically most of them did in fact conform to the stereotype?

If the definition of prejudice is to assign to an individual the characteristics of the wider group - does mention of "white privelege" fall under that heading?

 

[The Byre]

Do you think that's the same experience most will have?

Most people are afraid that they are going to be cheated or be stolen from. They are afraid in the same way that white men are afraid of black men because they are afraid that they will be attacked or beaten or robbed. They are afraid of what they have HEARD about Gypsies.

I've had it the other way and it was an eye-opener. I was on some course for the army and so I was in uniform. Para Reg. Jump smock, red beret, tight denims, jump boots and to top it all, I am 6'2". I was an ordinary private and a sergeant from another regiment had to wake me up for stag in the middle of the night. He tapped my arm and I jumped out of bed and he jumped back and I saw that he was afraid of me. Why? Because he had HEARD about the Paras - special fighting skills, animals, vicious killing machines!

These people didn't trust me because they were frightened of me! Daft, I know, but they had HEARD things about us that were silly and wrong, but hey, that's all they knew!

We had Roma, blacks, all kinds of young men in our recruit platoon and in the regiment and one goes through all kinds of hell together - that's the good thing about the military - you get to mix with every type of minority and attitude. Right-wing extremists, left-wing extremists, boxing champions and poets, cheats and Christians - they are all there and one gets to know than intimately. The Good, the Bad and the Ugly.

People are people and if you trust them, they will trust you - and we'll all get along just fine!

 

[simon field]

Probably is one of those cases where the few have spoiled it for the many, but that’s just tough!

 

[WaveJumper]

Maybe the many have spoiled it for the few. Having spent and I mean hundreds of thousands of pounds of retailers service charge monies clearing up after travellers invaded sites sorry I have little respect for them.

 

[simon field]

Maybe the many have spoiled it for the few. Having spent and I mean hundreds of thousands of pounds of retailers service charge monies clearing up after travellers invaded sites sorry I have little respect for them.

Sorry, yes, that’s what I meant!

 

[Paul Norman]

Maybe the many have spoiled it for the few. Having spent and I mean hundreds of thousands of pounds of retailers service charge monies clearing up after travellers invaded sites sorry I have little respect for them.

I would agree. I assume that you feel the same way about people who litter on concert sites, too. Or on crowded beaches?

The trick is to not extend the behaviour of some to individuals. I was told to F off by a man with a Scottish accent. I do not extend my feelings about that to all people from Scotland.

The reality, for me, is that I will get little respect from you because some people, who also happen to live on the road, behaved in an bad way.

But remember - respect is a two way street.
I have worked out the utter silliness of that approach In particular, I have a business to run, and I am happy to do business with all people who behave in a reasonable way. Even if some of their peers do not.

 

[simon field]

The reality, for me, is that I will get little respect from you because some people, who also happen to live on the road, behaved in an bad way.



But the people who are the problem do not generally ‘live on the road’ do they?

They like to rock up on other peoples land, make a mess, wait until eviction day and clear off to do the same somewhere else. They’re not ‘travellers’, otherwise they’d clear off when encouraged to travel!

So is it ‘pikeys’ I’m referring to?

 

[WaveJumper]

My brother in law lives on house boat now (IT programmer has his own company and does a lot of work for banks particularly their trading floors) Very close friends last week informed me they have sold up bought a brand new motorhome and next week heading off to Europe (not using P&O as they just sacked his daughter and husband) told me life's to short. They both now "travellers" but I respect them.

 

[Paul Norman]

They like to rock up on other peoples land, make a mess, wait until eviction day and clear off to do the same somewhere else. They’re not ‘travellers’, otherwise they’d clear off when encouraged to travel!

So is it ‘pikeys’ I’m referring to?

I assume so.

When you say 'they' to refer to an entire group, though, it is hard to take it seriously. It assumes that anyone who is from that group definitely will do that.

I saw pictures of a beach somewhere in the south of England, covered in rubbish after a very busy summer's day.

'They' like to visit the beach, chuck filth everywhere, and wait for the tax payer to cough up to get it cleared.

As a statement that makes no sense. It would be foolish to not interact with any beach goers because of the behaviour of some.

It is, of course, also me that you are therefore referring to, and yet, I have never rocked up on someone's land without permission, and take great care to not leave a mess.

 

[Paul Norman]

My brother in law lives on house boat now (IT programmer has his own company and does a lot of work for banks particularly their trading floors) Very close friends last week informed me they have sold up bought a brand new motorhome and next week heading off to Europe (not using P&O as they just sacked his daughter and husband) told me life's to short. They both now "travellers" but I respect them.

I suspect that they are about to have an adventure of a lifetime. Although it sounds as though they are not new to a more mobile lifetime.

There is a decent sized community of IT programmers on the continent doing much the same as they propose.

 

[WaveJumper]

I suspect that they are about to have an adventure of a lifetime. Although it sounds as though they are not new to a more mobile lifetime.

There is a decent sized community of IT programmers on the continent doing much the same as they propose.

I make you right though if we all had a little more tolerance and respect for each other the world would be a much better place (might help if we did away with the politicians) certainly might be less wars but thats going off on another tangent.

 

[Paul Norman]

I make you right though if we all had a little more tolerance and respect for each other the world would be a much better place (might help if we did away with the politicians) certainly might be less wars but thats going off on another tangent.

That might be another whole thread!

 

[simon field]

I assume so.

When you say 'they' to refer to an entire group, though, it is hard to take it seriously. It assumes that anyone who is from that group definitely will do that.

I saw pictures of a beach somewhere in the south of England, covered in rubbish after a very busy summer's day.

'They' like to visit the beach, chuck filth everywhere, and wait for the tax payer to cough up to get it cleared.

As a statement that makes no sense. It would be foolish to not interact with any beach goers because of the behaviour of some.

It is, of course, also me that you are therefore referring to, and yet, I have never rocked up on someone's land without permission, and take great care to not leave a mess.

Thanks for not being a W️, Paul.

Shame about the ‘do as you likeys’ ?