Time sheet fiddling

[Mike Simcox]

Hi all. Found this place on Google. Looks useful. My first post here. Please help

We recently lost an early morning cleaning contract. 5.40 am till 8am. 2 staff on site. Jobs weren't getting done to the standard required.. As far as I was concerned after interviewing the staff. They were struggling and worked hard. Our contact at the company thought so too and asked us to submit a proposal for extra hours. This we did. And lost the contract. The company got a cheaper option. I was a little peeved to not get the option to negotiate. But hey ho
Anyhow. On going to see the staff to tell them. I missed them going home. On questioning reception staff early leaving was not unusual it seems. There is electronic entry and exit tags. So all is logged. I arrived at 7.52 and missed them . For a supposed 8 am finish. X 2 is 16 minutes losttime a day. Then it occurs to my contact at the company. What time are they logging in. Average ? 6.10am instead of 5.40 . Half an hour late. X 2 is an hour a day. That is nearly an hour and 20 lost. Exactly what the extra time we were asking for was !
So essentially had they been doing there time. We wouldn't have lost this contract. We had notice to finish on Dec 1st. But on Friday ( I think they sniffed that they might be found out ) they walked out.. leaving us not fulfilling our notice with the company and the staff Not fulfilling there's with us.
So.
Loss of contract.
Time sheets fiddled.
Because of the electronic logging in at the company. They are going to go back to July and check all logins and outs. And no doubt knock off all overcharged hours back to me.
And God knows what else !
I have obviously paid the staff for these hours .That they didnt work..
Now . I owe the staff essentially 10 days pay. Plus unused holidays.
So I assume ? I can. When the company supply me with login and out data. Take off staffs overpayment from there time sheet fiddling off the money I owe the staff ?
But also. They have cost us the contract. We are only a small business. This was our first contract of this size. The company took a chance on us . And now we look incompetent. Although they were blind sided by these 2 staff members too .
What about damages? Would I have a case ?
I don't owe the staff much. Just hoping it's enough to cover what they have fiddled.
I know it's long. But was trying to be distinct. Really gutted by this. It's not just the money . Which was useful. But the kudos lost. The contacts. This company was expanding. And I thought we would be happily along for the ride tbh.
I come from retail management. So used to staff. But these 2 blind sided us all !!
Advice appreciated. Will be thinking twice about expansion and staffing now

 

[UrbanRetail]

To my (limited) knowledge, you are able to deduct an earlier overpayment of wages or expenses to a worker. As for damages, I don't think it would even be worth your time.

A tough but valuable lesson learned. Perhaps for future contracts, you could have the staff clocking in times emailed to you weekly before payroll is done?

 

[Mr D]

Sounds like the cleaners my wife used to work with, turned up late then left early no matter if work needed doing.

Better supervision next time? In the meantime then yes this is going to cost you. You don't look incompetent, your company was incompetent.

What does your contract with the staff say? Were they employees or contractors of yours?

 

[obscure]

So I assume ? I can. When the company supply me with login and out data. Take off staffs overpayment from there time sheet fiddling off the money I owe the staff ?

Assume nothing - it is very often a very expensive thing to do.

1. It is illegal to make deductions from pay unless your contract specifically includes a clause that says you can.

2. The money currently owed is for work done. If you have proof that they only worked for 8 hours instead of 10 then you only need to pay for the 8 hours... but you do need to pay for it. You can't deduct previously overpaid salary from that because of item 1 above. The two aren't related.

3. You could sue them for the overpaid salary/breach of contract. The clock in data should be ample evidence to win such a case. Only you can decide if that is worthwhile.

 

[Newchodge]

If you wre a manager why was this situation not managed? Why did you not know they were starting late and leaving early? How often did you turn up on site, unannounced to check they were there and what they were doing.

You cannot withhold wages due or unused holidays. You can amend how much is due by notifying them of previous overpaid wages, if they were paid by time, but you cannot rccover from pevious periods unless the contract of employment allows you to do so. You cannot recover from unused holidays whatever happens.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Are you aware of TUPE regulations, I ask as its something a new company like yours should be aware of, have a look when you have time just google it

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

If I was advising the OP, I would suggest adopting the line that the wages previously paid for hours not worked was an overpayment, and was therefore deductible from the final wages – overpayments can be deducted from later wages.


I wouldn’t have any confidence in the argument, and wouldn’t suggest pushing it hard, certainly not taking such a defence to a tribunal, as it doesn’t appear to be an overpayment at all: the payments made are those contractually due, whereas an overpayment would be if £100 was due, but payroll inadvertently entered £200 – that would be a (£100) “overpayment”.

In this case, it appears that the wages paid were accurate according to the contractual terms, and it’s only the hours worked that fell short – a disciplinary matter, rather than an overpayment of wages, and therefore something that should have been dealt with sooner.



Ergo, my advice wouldn't be the most legally appropriate or accurate line, but I can give practical advice – I’m not obliged to give only the most professionally appropriate legal advice – so if the employees took advice, got confirmation that this argument wouldn’t succeed, I’d recommend backing-down. But a firmly-worded letter explaining that the OP knows the staff fiddled their claims for hours worked may deter the ex-employees taking advice or action. It can’t harm for the OP to at least try such a response, at least initially.



Karl Limpert

 

[Mike Simcox]

Thanks all.
answering questions.
why werent they managed and checked on if i used to be a large retail shop manager?
I honestly thought they were. Yes i would turn up. Check. chat. see them. etc. it was an office cleaning contract. They had to log in and out on the visitors log. They had to use a fob entry system and were key holders and alarm code holders to get in. They had CRB checks done.
They also had to fill in a seperate time sheet for hours. So they mis filled in time sheet. Had the audacity to fill out the visitors log ON the reception desk as 8pm even when they left early. I know it wasn't receptions job to check on them, but i wonder why they never said when i used to ask and check if all was ok. All this when they had fobs that logged in and out times. surely they must have known they would get found out eventually?
As for the checking? The TWO things i didn't do? Turn up at 5.40 am to check they were on time. Check the company fob logs. ALTHOUGH i honestly didn't think i could have access to these. Live and learn.
Contracted or sub contracted someone asked? Contracted emplyees to our little company. We held the contract for the office clean.
Yes they were paid hourly as oppose to a fixed salary,
So. IF previous months time sheets were forged and they hadn't worked the hours they put down. AND we can prove that via electronic log in data.
Is there STILL no way of deducting this from wages owed.
And NO WAY of taking it from holiday money owed either. EVEN THOUGH they walked out with no notice? AFTER i had given them notice of the contract ending?
If not. That sucks.
TUPE?
time for google i guess.
And lastly. I was thinking of adapting that kind of line Karl. i.e a " we know you fiddled, we can prove it, unless you want me to do you for it, wander off and never darken my door again" type of letter.
But obviously not in those words. But firm. with the proof when i get it. ( waiting for the door logs)
And as you say, see if they do so.
It;s been a learner thats for sure. They side swiped me. And i THOUGHT i was pretty good at judging folk. Side swiped the manager at the company that we were contracted too. As it was she who said they are working terribly hard and not getting done, i think you need to submit a proposal for more hours. We were all shocked. As she said to me. Now she knows she can check these logs, she will be checking future contractors now.
Waiting to hear at the moment what action is to be taken if any against us re claiming back overpayments due to staff hours etc.
I tell you what though. This sucks. It really does. I feel - angry, upset, dissapointed, basically anything negative i guess i can towards these people. I also feel stupid for being duped. I feel stupid for not getting up at 5am and checking on them more often . People. I'm not a big fan of them today.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

I guess you could send a letter to them stating you would like them to come into the office as you have found out a possible fraud case and would like there side before you contact the police, they may even agree to repaying the money voluntary, naturally you would not have to go through with it but it would shore scare them

 

[Mike Simcox]

Yup. Its a part of my possible plan too Chris.
Would the police be interested out of curiosity. It is of course theft, but, they may say it's a civil matter?

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

The police would never be interested in the case. Perhaps it’s theft by use of a fraudulent instrument, but as we don’t even know precisely what they signed on the time-sheets – did it state the times they were meant to work, or the precise minute & second they commenced/finished work? – it would be impossible to comment – apart from observing the low-level nature of it would not warrant police attention.


The simple fact is, @Mike Simcox assessed the hours needed for the cleaning, but when that wasn’t proving to be effective, rather than explore why – by checking the work was being done – they simply accepted the employee’s word more hours were needed, and proposed more hours – more time for the employees to exploit.


It is as much a management failure as anything else: if the problem had been identified, they could have sacked the staff, got reliable staff in place, and kept their reputation & contract. The employees are the main culprit, but the OP should have identified the problem. Harsh lesson learnt: management & employment is based on, but can’t always rely solely on, trust.



Karl Limpert

 

[Mike Simcox]

agreed Karl . totally.
Simply, the company employing us asked us to out a proposal in for more hours ( the company employing us suggested an hour) as they felt as though little things were getting missed. That the staff i had in place were working hard already and there is a lot to do .
And there , as you say, was my error.
I should have been in at 5.40till 8 for a week to see where they were struggling and to identify the issues. This as you say would have thrown up the fraud. But that is by the by i guess. It;s done, no going back. As you say Less on learnt.
Thanks for the advice folks. . Still waiting to see how the company are going to pursue it, not heard from them at all as yet.
cheers

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

The hardest part is not acting on impulse.

This should be the easiest part - as long as impulse is to behave sensibly, not strike out in frustration.


To cut it down to its barest bones

Keep a cool head, be reasonable, fair, manage performance accordingly.

Karl Limpert

 

[godoit]

It can be really hard not to strike out in frustration. The range of emotions you feel as you witness someone you pay, destroy something you've sweated blood and tears to build without a care in the world is one of the most upsetting things I've ever experienced.

kills me on the inside,