Teacher in Mohammed Teddybear situation

I would like to thank Sally for her input - to me it is great to have the perspective of a British Muslim who lives in Egypt on this thread.

Thank you so much Ray. This is why I didn't post on the G-d thread or say I am a Muslim before but I had hoped I could offer my perspective as a Brit that converted in adulthood.

I hope you ain't feeling too isolated on this Sal.

I am feeling pretty crappy to be honest Ray and wish I had never posted on the thread.

It is okay for our PM to thank the Muslim peers for their courageous efforts in sorting this situation out but when I do it I am showing Muslim solidarity, rather than applauding someone from my faith doing the right thing.
 
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M

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Sally wrote:
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Now answer your own question. Is that what I said? Is that what you copied and pasted above?
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I'm afraid so Sally. What I copy/pasted is *exactly* what you said.

See post number 148, page 15.

How could it be anything else when I took it from your writing?

One of your criterions for arresting terrorist suspects is "When they go and start buying the materials to kill people...".

Another of your criterions is when they "...go off to a training camp."

For the umpteenth time Sally, a terrorist suspect in either of these scenarios is far too dangerous. We want them off the streets well before they get to either of these, or other similar psychopathic stages.

Dave
 
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Subbynet

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Sorry did you just say it wasn't Muslims, it was Muslims? Do you think British Muslims belong to a different faith?

No - a different mindset and take of the same faith. I apply this to any faith, Christians in the US and UK are completely different! (I said that about 3 pages ago too)

3 pages ago people were saying that Muslims must speak up and say we do not accept this. Then when they do and I congratulate them for it, I am totally biased because of my faith. But you think they only did it because they are British and a different sort of Muslim :|

I didn't condemned them for speaking up, I condemned you for saying well done to Muslims like there was solidarity in that position all over the world. There clearly isn't, like Islam isn't the same the world over, like Christianity isn't the same...

I believe the most "progressive" Muslims live in "the West" (Britain at the forefront.).

Is it beyond you just to say 'good, that is a step in the right direction'?

Nope, well done British Muslims who supported her. You stood by your countrymen instead of brothers in faith.

We might have made a step, but by heck the road is long.

70% of Sudan is Muslim, there are over 3 million living in Khartoum and the suburbs. The FO said that approx 1000 people demonstrated on Friday. Maybe the other 2 million Muslims were too busy washing their hair?

51 Million people in the UK, only 1 Million marched over Iraq - did that mean we disagreed and were too busy washing their hair? No stupid isn't it. We supported the cause - but that never stopped 7/7.

Anyways, Picture 3 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/7124569.stm Your having a laugh to say its isolated, when again I say we seen the same on streets all over the world because of silly pictures.
 
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M

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RayB wrote:
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I don't think it is fair that Sally has to feel crappy about posting in a thread BTW fellow UKBFers
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LOL! Are you really for really real or what Ray?

You sound as ridiculous as someone exclaiming that it is just not fair for Ricky Hatton to punch Floyd Mayweather in their upcoming fight.

I doubt that anyone wants to make Sally feel crappy or isolated. But what we are not prepared to swallow is that some evil, scummy little bitch should be allowed to get away with inciting and helping other evil swines to slaughter innocent people on the streets of GREAT BRITAIN.

Dave
 
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Shall we try this agian but PLEASE try to read what I am saying not what you want me to be saying.

They become evil scum when they take action and not until. When they go and start buying the materials to kill people or go off to a training camp.

Ask yourself why you bothered to copy and paste my words as follows:

or go off to a training camp

then totally ignore that (bearing in mind I have talked numerous times about the guys that came to Cumbria and trained with sticks) and then say:

Okay. So the point at which you would arrest a terrorist suspect is "when they go and start buying the materials to kill people"? Is that right?

Now answer your own question. Is that what I said? Is that what you copied and pasted above? No it is not because you chose to ignore a portion of it!!

Do you see what I am saying? I said that people that take active action (including playing soldiers in the woods with sticks) should be prosecuted and you turned that in to when they go and start buying the materials to kill people"? Is that right?

We are never going to agree on arresting people for thought crimes but please stop twisting everything I say.
 
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Subbynet

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[/size]

If you go back quite a few posts you will see that I said I had not seen anything about her trying to donate money and that if I did it may change my views of the case, as that crosses the line. Bt I do not think poetry crosses the same line.

So now that you've seen it? Do you believe she is still no longer a threat? The condemnation is hardly forthcoming in your response above despite me providing links to the evidence you were looking for, and as we spoke of earlier - you said the Muslim community was condemning such actions.

We just don't hear it Sally, and thats not to have a go at you, but if your position in an argument has become untenable, its time to admit you got it wrong.

I repeat again - the girl clearly has mental health problems.

Or is it ideological problems? A mistaken belief seems closer the mark than outright mental health problems - as she managed to hold down a job, keep connections online, write poetry etc
 
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LOL! Are you really for really real or what Ray?

No - I am figment of your imagination

You sound as ridiculous as someone exclaiming that it is just not fair for Ricky Hatton to punch Floyd Mayweather in their upcoming fight.
Fair enough - I am thick skinned - call me ridiculous - while I have a look at some of your previous threads - there are some gems there ;)

I doubt that anyone wants to make Sally feel crappy or isolated.

Dave

But some are doing a good job at achieving it nevertheless
 
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I doubt that anyone wants to make Sally feel crappy or isolated. But what we are not prepared to swallow is that some evil, scummy little bitch should be allowed to get away with inciting and helping other evil swines to slaughter innocent people on the streets of GREAT BRITAIN.

I said in post 162 that I had not seen the issue of paying money to terrorist organisation in the press reports. In post 168 I said if I saw such a report it would make it a different matter.

Clearly it is a different matter and yes if she tried to pay money to a terrorist organisation then she belongs behind bars. I have no argument with that.

Ken, there is no point saying how easy it is to find - if I haven't seen it I haven't seen it. There are plenty of press reports that do not mention that fact and it takes the matter from a girl in her bedroom to someone actively supporting terrorism. Maybe it would have been easier just to repost the link when I said I hadn't read about it?
 
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Subbynet

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I provided links and quoted the Chief Police officer who said she tried paying money...

And lets get something right, she wasn't found guilty of terrorism, but inciting hatred, which in my eyes was correct with the available evidence and proves are courts (at times) work.

Her actions are not the same as that in Cumbria.

Plus, above in a few posts its looking a little too personal against Sally... I hope i'm arguing your viewpoint and not yourself, because quite frankly, altho you feel isolated, I think fair play, your the only Muslim out of the whole forum (and there must be more) who will stand up publically and put her position forward.... I can't say I agree with it all, but I think its better to hear it than not hear anything.
 
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cjd

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    We are never going to agree on arresting people for thought crimes ....

    For what it's worth, I agree with you. I also think that the plans to extend arrest and imprisonment without charge on suspicion only is an enormously dangerous step to take in a democracy and something we should all be on the streets trying to prevent.

    But in this case she was found guilty not of 'thought crime' but of having articles "likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism".

    The articles included the Al-Qaeda Manual and The Mujahideen Poisons Handbook. Simply owning them is a crime and given their content, quite rightly.

    She had written "The desire within me increases every day to go for martyrdom."

    She may well be mentally ill; but she seems too dangerous to be left on the street to me.
     
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    Plus, above in a few posts its looking a little too personal against Sally... I hope i'm arguing your viewpoint and not yourself, because quite frankly, altho you feel isolated, I think fair play, your the only Muslim out of the whole forum (and there must be more) who will stand up publically and put her position forward.... I can't say I agree with it all, but I think its better to hear it than not hear anything.

    Yes I saw the comments about paying money but having not read about it in the press that is why I said I have not read about it. Tt was after the link to the press report but nobody said it is in the link on page ...

    Here are the two articles I bookmarked about it - do you see mention of the money issue?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/08/npoet108.xml

    http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/law_order/enigma+of+the+lyrical+terrorist/1027647


    Well if there are any other Muslims on the forum I can certainly see why they have kept quiet and I couldn't blame them for one moment. I wish I had had the sense to not post on this thread.
     
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    M

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    Sally. There is no need to start shouting and ranting like some spoilt little brat.

    I have quoted the post number and the page number of what you actually said. Anyone who is interested will view the relevant page and make their own minds up about the position you are adopting.

    Okay, I tentatively offer the following, WHICH YOU WROTE...

    Sally wrote:
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    They become evil scum when they take action and not until. When they go and start buying the materials to kill people or go off to a training camp.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    To make this easier for you, let's try to establish the point when you think a terrorist suspect should be arrested. Choose one of the following...

    (a) When the suspect actually possesses the weapons with which to murder people.

    (b) Before the suspect possesses the weapons with which to murder people.

    (c) Other. (Please explain).

    Now I cannot be fairer than that can I?

    Just for record (yet again), you have continually, in my understanding, chosen option (a) throughout this thread. In fact, this is the main reason why you have so many people opposing you in this thread.

    Dave
     
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    M

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    RayB wrote:
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    while I have a look at some of your previous threads - there are some gems there
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Whatever gets you off little buddy!

    Would you like me to send you a picture of my bottom while you read some of my famous works of art?

    XXXX

    Dave
     
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    DuaneJackson

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    Dave, I've just given you an infraction for being so rude to sally - there's no need for it.

    As much as you do contribute usefully to various threads - you're becoming more trouble then you're worth. I had to delete some of your rubbish just the other week.

    One more time and I'll ask for a permanent ban.

    *bangs eveyones heads together*

    Behave or you'll all be sent to your rooms (with no teddy bear)
     
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    M

    Mortime Business Software

    Duane wrote:
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    Dave, I've just given you an infraction for being so rude to sally - there's no need for it.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Duane. How do you think I felt when being answered with grossly enlarged, enboldened, coloured type, which clearly attempted to distort what I said earlier?

    How do you think I felt when I was accused of making up lies about what someone actually did say?

    Duane wrote:
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    One more time and I'll ask for a permanent ban.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Hey, go for it man.

    I have already asked for this to happen some months ago, but nobody seemed willing to do it at the time.

    Just DO IT!

    Dave
     
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    wilfredw

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    Sally, thanks for bringing in another viewpoint. Many people are often so convinced that they are right and the "morality" of their position that they completely miss that there are often two parts to the same issue.

    Personally, if I were you, I would not reply to certain people in this forum. Their rants on other threads give us a fair view of the type of people they are and it's just not worth your while to engage them in a long conversation.
     
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    Subbynet

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    Yes I saw the comments about paying money but having not read about it in the press that is why I said I have not read about it. Tt was after the link to the press report but nobody said it is in the link on page ...

    Here are the two articles I bookmarked about it - do you see mention of the money issue?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/08/npoet108.xml

    http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/law_order/enigma+of+the+lyrical+terrorist/1027647

    So you've based all of your argument on those two links? :rolleyes:

    Have you changed your mind now that I have found it on a reputal news source (BBC)? (Plus Ken_UK said on page 8) From now on you will be in condemnation of this girl too?

    I've quoted it a few times now, and not once in any reply have you said ok, thats the level of proof I need - why? Do you now believe it was more than a thought-crime?

    This is what I don't understand, to me your position is untenable in the light of the evidence - and that your faith with her being Muslim makes it hard for you to believe the conviction was right and her crime a real threat.

    Considering our earlier posts, I find that amazing and goes somewhat to why we have such problems.

    Unless this thread develops, I'm going to bow-out now... I think I've made my point more than enough times with evidence to the level you required earlier.

    Take care.
     
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    Have you changed your mind now that I have found it on a reputal news source (BBC)? (Plus Ken_UK said on page 8) From now on you will be in condemnation of this girl too?

    Please go back to post 209 and read it, where I make my views very clear.

    I've quoted it a few times now, and not once in any reply have you said ok, thats the level of proof I need - why?

    Because I don't take anyones word for it with such an issue and I didn't see Kens link. When I asked, twice, for links nobody said there is one on page 8

    and that your faith with her being Muslim makes it hard for you to believe the conviction was right and her crime a real threat.

    You couldn't be more wrong, despite evidence to the contrary I am not a total moron. My faith does not lead me to believe anyone innocent or guilty of anything based on faith, skin colour, gender or anything else, I take each case as I find it.
     
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    cjd

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    Thank you Wilf, I shall leave this thread alone now.

    I don't think you should do that - please stick around and argue your corner, there are few enough Muslim voices heard here.

    (Or shuffle off over to the God thread if you've really had enough - I'm still trying to figure out whether there is any real difference between the Christian and Islamic religions.)
     
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    Subbynet

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    Please go back to post 209 and read it, where I make my views very clear.

    This is what you said.

    I said in post 162 that I had not seen the issue of paying money to terrorist organisation in the press reports. In post 168 I said if I saw such a report it would make it a different matter.

    Clearly it is a different matter and yes if she tried to pay money to a terrorist organisation then she belongs behind bars. I have no argument with that.

    Ken, there is no point saying how easy it is to find - if I haven't seen it I haven't seen it. There are plenty of press reports that do not mention that fact and it takes the matter from a girl in her bedroom to someone actively supporting terrorism. Maybe it would have been easier just to repost the link when I said I hadn't read about it?


    If the element of doubt isn't wrote into that paragraph I don't know what is... The use of "IF" exaggerates the belief we hold that you find it hard to see this girl as guilty.

    It appears you agree she should be behind bars, but condemning her actions is hardly forthcoming.

    Remember what we were talking about earlier regarding Muslims speaking out and condemning terrorist actions?

    Because I don't take anyones word for it with such an issue and I didn't see Kens link. When I asked, twice, for links nobody said there is one on page 8

    But I also gave you links and quotes Sally. You said this is the proof you need.

    You couldn't be more wrong, despite evidence to the contrary I am not a total moron. My faith does not lead me to believe anyone innocent or guilty of anything based on faith, skin colour, gender or anything else, I take each case as I find it.

    I'm not so sure Sally, like I've said earlier in this thread. I think your faith - especially in a thread largely about faith has influenced your replies, and you feel you must defend it.

    Hence while others here have condemned this girl, you've sought to find other explanations.

    Now - that is my stage exit.

    Regards - and no hard feelings
     
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    I don't think you should do that - please stick around and argue your corner, there are few enough Muslim voices heard here.

    I am feeling a little punch drunk at the moment. Maybe a sleep would help, I am still awake from yesterday.

    I'm still trying to figure out whether there is any real difference between the Christian and Islamic religions.)

    Really 'Only One' ;) (they believe in 3)

    There is actually so much in common between the 3 monotheist faiths, it is such a shame people choose to fight about the differences. :(
     
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    Wiggy

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    Whoa! I pop away for the school run-homework-dinner break and all perdition breaks loose!

    I see that Ray and Earl are maintaining sanity though. Nice one guys!


    I was talking to God outside the school, [he was covering for the regular lollipop man] and he said that since we humans invented religion, he hasn't had a moment's peace. . .

    There is actually so much in common between the 3 monotheist faiths, it is such a shame people choose to fight about the differences. :(

    Sadly, people will always find something to fight about: race, religion, water rights, how to say toma'r'toe. . .But on this forum, low calorie [Fight-free] arguments are what we privileged ones need to have and I hope Dave comes back in a month to argue. . .Good call Duane.
     
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