Teacher in Mohammed Teddybear situation

[Wiggy]

My thoughts exactly. Truth be told, we in the West cannot leave these people alone irregardless of how many bad things they do because they have things that we need (raw materials, land and other things). Do you know why the Sudanese are feeling so confident? They have signed massive oil deals with the Chinese and in return the Chinese will protect them for now at least.

This should then form the basis of our charity. If all that resource was aimed at informing people about not using products that foster inhumanity, and we were willing to sacrifice a little for better ethics, we would do more for the world at large. If 'Ethical oil' cost 10p/litre more, would we buy it? Go further, if an airline only used 'ethical oil' would we make our commitment to charity by paying more for their tickets? I suspect not. We rarely put our money where our mouths are. . .

 

[vvaannmmaann]

The whole situation is very sad.However,as a teacher working in a Muslim country,she must have been aware of the possible consequences of what she did.
She must have been aware of the whole saga of the Danish cartoons?
There is also the question of alleged deeper political movements at work.

 

[Dawg]

Has anyone seen this bear ? For sale on "SimplyIslam.com", he is called Adam.

"Islam", like "America" is just to vast and varied to be categorized and condemned as a single unit.
However "Murderous Sudanese peasants" has a certain resonance. It's not just this teacher or even the ongoing tragedy and abomination of Darfur, ethnic war has been waged against non muslims in Sudan for longer than living memory.

 

[cjd]

Has anyone seen this bear ? For sale on "SimplyIslam.com", he is called Adam.

Haha - that's fabulous

 

[Hedgie]

Oh CJD, you love quoting from the HISTORIC old testament law don't you

 

[Hedgie]

and then you get this reaction....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7121025.stm

 

[Chris H]

The whole situation is very sad.However,as a teacher working in a Muslim country,she must have been aware of the possible consequences of what she did.
She must have been aware of the whole saga of the Danish cartoons?
There is also the question of alleged deeper political movements at work.

Why should she have been aware? Islam is not very well known by westerners. It's a pity they didn't show her the tolerance that many say Islam has.

 

[Hedgie]

You know what, when it comes to religious tolerance etc isn't it great that we build mosques in this country to enable muslims to have a place of worship yet you try building a church in some of the muslim nations !!!

 

[Sally@CC]

You know what, when it comes to religious tolerance etc isn't it great that we build mosques in this country to enable muslims to have a place of worship yet you try building a church in some of the muslim nations !!!

In my town the main church is built with a shared wall to the main mosque and Egypt is 98% Muslim. Many towns build them in this way in order to show tolerence of religion. You would be amazed how many churches there are considering how small the Christian population is.

 

[Hedgie]

In my town the main church is built with a shared wall to the main mosque and Egypt is 98% Muslim. Many towns build them in this way in order to show tolerence of religion. You would be amazed how many churches there are considering how small the Christian population is.

I do understand that many nations will allow christian churches but mst of them will not. Our church fellowship has churches all over the world but we have been unable to start any in the muslim nations as they are a complete no no, usually under threat of death.

 

[cjd]

Oh CJD, you love quoting from the HISTORIC old testament law don't you

I'm a little confused, are you objecting because they are older than 2,000 years or that they are untrue?

 

[Hedgie]

I'm a little confused, are you objecting because they are older than 2,000 years or that they are untrue?

I'm not objectin gto them just that the Old Testament accounts and laws are just that 'OLD'. We live by New testament teaching, Jesus coming to earth and fulfilling the Old Testament mosaic law renders them non existant other than those which Jesus speaks about in the New Testament. A lot of the Old testament stuff is jewish tradition, religion etc

 

[Sally@CC]

The muslim girl was not just writing poetry, she had extensive terrorist material in addition to openly admitting her belief, and desire to support terrorism, and called for executions of westerners etc...

So other than her mind and a few books what did she actually have or do to hurt anyone?

But locking someone up for naming a teddy bear is another matter entirely, its ludicrous.

I completely agree.

Hi Sal, I agree with you, the point I was trying to make (poorly) is the human race still has some way to on the humanity front - regardless of any religious beliefs

When wars and atrocities are no more - we will have got there

I fear that day is a loooong way off, humans are just so dim and keep repeating the same stupid mistakes.

Interfering naturally would be to invade, take over, annexe the land and resources and subjugate the people to 'our' way of life by [extreme and brutal] force. This is the human way and a couple of centuries down the line, the atrocities will be forgotten. Nobody is out there protesting the treatment of the Picts, San, Hurons, etc. We all seem to think Anglo-Saxons are native to Britain and Americans are white lol.

You sound just like a radical Islamist

As long as men know that some charity will be along to feed their young, they will continue to go off to war.

So who is feeding our children while we go to war with other countries?

If we butt out and leave them to their own devices, undeveloped nations will evolve too and we will not be targets for terror. . .

Very good point.

It is child abuse just like providing aid in war-torn countries is war-mongering!

It may help if our country stops selling them tons of weaponry. War makes profit - ask Bush.

Has anyone seen this bear ? For sale on "SimplyIslam.com", he is called Adam.

Please send that to the international press and the Sudanese government. Nice find.

 

[Chris H]

In my town the main church is built with a shared wall to the main mosque and Egypt is 98% Muslim. Many towns build them in this way in order to show tolerence of religion. You would be amazed how many churches there are considering how small the Christian population is.

Sally, the building, and even repairing of church's in Egypt is subject to legislation and planning. I would think that any new churches might have a requirement for an adjoining mosque to be built. Also worth knowing if the churches you mention were there before Islam achieved such dominance in Egypt.

 

[Cornish Steve]

Leaving well alone means no aid!

And your conscience will let you see millions dying in front of your eyes?

As for people oppressed by their own governments, the same applies, let them feel the full weight of oppression, when it reaches critical mass, they will rise!

And we know what happens. Hitler kills millions of Jews. Stalin kills millions of Russians. Mao kills millions of Chinese. Polpot kills millions of Cambodians. Saddam kills hundreds of thousands of opponents.

Without interference, the world will develop.

We can't just pretend that we can leave them to it. If we leave Iran to it, they'll fire nuclear bombs at Israel. If we leave radical Islam to it, they'll follow up 9/11 with similar attacks in all Western capitals. What everyone has forgotten so quickly is that we are fighting a war started by others. It's not going to go away simply because we bury our heads in the sand or pretend these leaders are really peace-loving idealists.

If we butt out and leave them to their own devices, undeveloped nations will evolve too and we will not be targets for terror

Really? So 9/11 was an aberration? If we leave them alone, they poison the minds of their children with hatred in schools (have you ever seen the curriculum in Palestinian schools?). They will evolve, but don't believe for one moment it will lead to peace.

she and her type are not helping with the situation in the long term.

She's a hero. She's to be admired. Thank God for people as unselfish as this dear lady.

 

[Sally@CC]

Sally, the building, and even repairing of church's in Egypt is subject to legislation and planning. I would think that any new churches might have a requirement for an adjoining mosque to be built. Also worth knowing if the churches you mention were there before Islam achieved such dominance in Egypt.

Hee hee, no building lasts that long in Egypt.

I doubt there is any such requirement, I have also seen very new churches nowhere near to mosques.

 

[Cornish Steve]

Christians never read the hard stuff in the bible or if they do they 'interpret' it or put it in 'context'.

Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."

Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."

Proverbs 6:32 "But a man who commits adultery lacks judgment; whoever does so destroys himself." He destroys himself by being put to death.

Leviticus 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire."

We covered this at length before, but you've convinced yourself of something and are not prepared to listen. I pulled out of a former debate because of such intransigence; I'm not going to react now. Suffice it to say that Christian nations do not cut off limbs or stone people. On the contrary, they are the ones helping the poor and destitute in countries such as Sudan. Actions count for a lot more than words.

 

[Sally@CC]

We covered this at length before, but you've convinced yourself of something and are not prepared to listen. I pulled out of a former debate because of such intransigence; I'm not going to react now. Suffice it to say that Christian nations do not cut off limbs or stone people. On the contrary, they are the ones helping the poor and destitute in countries such as Sudan. Actions count for a lot more than words.

So you are not aware of the Catholic priest that worked in south america in the 80's. He used to shoot people in order to save their souls while they were dying.

When did the Christian church stop torturing, burning and drowning people?

 

[Cornish Steve]

So you are not aware of the Catholic priest that worked in south america in the 80's. He used to shoot people in order to save their souls while they were dying.

When did the Christian church stop torturing, burning and drowning people?

Cruel tyrants and oddballs hijack faiths all the time. These tend to be individual acts or sometimes small group events; in history, power-hungry leaders often committed atrocities in the name of religion, but it was really selfish ambition. You don't see mass murder on the scale of atheism (Stalin, Mao, PolPot, etc.) and the like. Take a look at the 20 wars that caused the most death in history; the list is quite revealing.

Yes, there are whackos everywhere, and anyone can claim to be anything, but it doesn't make it so. No matter what someone ways, you can tell the measure of a person by the 'fruit' they produce. This is why the schoolteacher in Sudan is such a hero. Clearly, children and most parents loved her.

 

[Sally@CC]

Cruel tyrants and oddballs hijack faiths all the time. These tend to be individual acts or sometimes small group events. You don't see mass murder on the scale of atheism (Stalin, Mao, PolPot, etc.) or other ideologies (e.g., Saddam) or the like. Yes, there are whackos everywhere, and anyone can claim to be anything, but it doesn't make it so. No matter what someone ways, you can tell the measure of a person by the 'fruit' they produce. This is why the schoolteacher in Sudan is such a hero. Clearly, children and most parents loved her.

I agree with you there are whachos everywhere, including in religion. Yes the numbers killed by Stalin & Co make religious slaughter look like a picnic but that does not excuse the violence carried out in the name of God over the centuries.

So the Spanish Inquisition was just a few religious nuts that misinterpreted the scriptures?

 

[Cornish Steve]

My view is that there re people called Mohammad in jails all over the world (rapists, murderers, thieves) so why aren't they seen as an insult to the Prophet? The world has gone mad.

Spot on, Sally. They are in the same class as so-called evangelists who rip off their 'admirers' by spending lavishly, avoiding taxes, philandering, and so on. Look at what people do, not what they say.

 

[Cornish Steve]

So the Spanish Inquisition was just a few religious nuts that misinterpreted the scriptures?

It was a political ideology used by governments to build their empires. Power-mongers will use whatever is at their disposal to achieve their selfish ends. But don't draw conclusions about the hijacked group based on the hijackers. Don't think all Muslims are filled with hatred because of the actions of clerics in Sudan.

 

[RayB]

Am I in the right thread, the one about a teddy bear, or have I stumbled into that long running one by mistake :|

 

[Sally@CC]

Don't think all Muslims are filled with hatred because of the actions of clerics in Sudan.

As a Muslim I am very pleased to hear you say that. Now if you could just explain that to the rest of the west.

 

[cjd]

Suffice it to say that Christian nations do not cut off limbs or stone people. On the contrary, they are the ones helping the poor and destitute in countries such as Sudan. Actions count for a lot more than words.

My point is not that christians do this sort of thing anymore, but that they did exactly this in relative recent history. The church was still burning witches at the stake in the 1700s and the Catholic church didn't officially condemn the torture and disembowelment of apostates until 1813.

Arguably the christian stance on family planning in Africa and homosexual discimination are modern days examples of a bigotted and violent past.

My point is that christian, jewish and muslim religions grew from the same stem and practiced the same sort of barbarity in the name of the same God.

Modern Western christanity is quite rightly choosing to disregard Old Testament teachings and as a result is becoming quite harmless. But Muslims in backward countries are still practicing their religion just as they did in the 16th century -with all the blasphemy laws still intact.

We really shouldn't be surprised when we find that people actually believe what they say they believe and what happens as a consequence of that belief.

 

[Chris H]

The records of the of the Spanish Inquisition have led historians to estimate that up to 5000 people were killed over the 300 odd years of the Inquisition's run.

Unfortunately myth and propoganda trump documented history.

 

[Cornish Steve]

The records of the of the Spanish Inquisition have led historians to estimate that up to 5000 people were killed over the 300 odd years of the Inquisition's run.

That's 5,000 too many, but this number was killed daily by tribes in Rwanda, atheists in Russia and China, Saddam in Iraq, and many many more. How we love to take things out of proportion.

Plus, we're talking now about a dear lady who gave up a comfortable existence to help those in need. And up pop the bigots to demand her blood. Oh how the children of that country suffer.

 

[Sally@CC]

My point is that christian, jewish and muslim religions grew from the same stem and practiced the same sort of barbarity in the name of the same God.

I agree with your points and hopefully when education kicks in these countries will realise the error of their ways. Unfortunately Islam was founded in a violent tribal system and some of these countries still live in a violent tribal system, so of course they do not apply a few centuries of human growth.

I am no expert at Jewish history but I am not sure I could include them in the above list. I am not aware of them going through a time of barbarity on anyone outside their own faith. Correct me if I am wrong. But yes all three faiths stem from the same place.

 

[ken_uk]

So other than her mind and a few books what did she actually have or do to hurt anyone?

So as a muslim, your saying you think its fine for another muslim to live in Britain, and support & fund terrorist groups. Its fine for them to call for the execution of westerners.

Its fine for them to have detailed bomb making books, poison making books, terrorism guides, and manuals for sniper rifles etc?

Just because she has not actually done anything other than try to pay money to a terrorist group, offer help to terrorist groups, and has compiled a large amount of information that has only one use, but not used that info yet she should not be imprisoned, she has not really done anything wrong? Do any other muslims you know of have this sort of information (terrorism manuals etc) is it common?

What should the courts do? Let her go, and assume she is just collecting all this for fun, and hope she does not use any of it, or help others to use it?

What would happen if a UK person went to a muslim country and called for the execution of muslims, and had detailed bomb making info, funded terrorism etc - would they be so forgiving or would they behead them? If you get jailed for naming a teddy bear, imagine what would happen if they caught a person from the uk in the same situation as the muslim lady in question........

 

[Top Hat]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7121025.stm

Thousands of people have marched in the Sudanese capital Khartoum to call for UK teacher Gillian Gibbons to be shot.

 

[Mortime Business Software]

Standing on the bridge of an RN frigate which was slowly approaching a jetty in Port Sudan, I misused my binoculars to try and anticipate what lay beyond our berth.

All I could see was another filthy, middle-eastern hovel. After walking some of the filthy streets of Alexandria a few weeks before, where all the time I felt as though I was going to catch some horrible disease by just breathing the air, Port Sudan promised to be even worse.

I decided not to venture out into the town that night. Instead, I spent the afternoon and evening with some seamen on the upper deck. We threw potatoes and turnips at the 'fuzzy-wuzzies' (so named because of their wild, 1970's hairstyles) who were sat on the jetty in their nightgowns.

Perhaps this is the reason why poor Mrs. Gibbons is now being treated so poorly. I don't know, but if it is, then I would just like to apologise to all those fuzzies who were sat on a jetty in Port Sudan and got hit by a turnip or spud.

I'm sorry - okay? We were only boys! Please. Just let her go!

Dave

 

[Dawg]

I want to know why this so called teacher was doing playing with cuddly toys in class time. She should have been teaching the children the 3Rs*, not molly coddling them. Pah.

*Revenge, we was Ronged and Ribald humour the Jihadist way.

 

[dave_n]

when she's freed we should start a bombing campaign...of teddy bears...thousands of them all with a little tag round the neck saying 'hello i'm mo'

 

[Wiggy]

OK, Controversy Central Part two.

Oh CJD, you love quoting from the HISTORIC old testament law don't you

I'm not objectin gto them just that the Old Testament accounts and laws are just that 'OLD'. We live by New testament teaching, Jesus coming to earth and fulfilling the Old Testament mosaic law renders them non existant other than those which Jesus speaks about in the New Testament. A lot of the Old testament stuff is jewish tradition, religion etc

If the Old Testament is no longer valid due to its great age, why is the 2000 year old New Testament still valid?

Why should she have been aware? Islam is not very well known by westerners. It's a pity they didn't show her the tolerance that many say Islam has.

In the UK, ignorance of the law is not accepted as a defence in court either. If you live and work somewhere, you should know what is illegal. If you don't like the law, leave. [I think any law that has not changed in the last 100 years is ridiculous so I won't live in a place with a static [or religious] legal system.

And your conscience will let you see millions dying in front of your eyes?

I think you missed the point here. The aid prolongs the conflict and more people die. True compassion would refuse aid and reduce the deathtoll

And we know what happens. Hitler kills millions of Jews. Stalin kills millions of Russians. Mao kills millions of Chinese. Polpot kills millions of Cambodians. Saddam kills hundreds of thousands of opponents.

Here we agree. Aid would not have helped any of these situations. War or Invasion is what is required to deal with such.

We can't just pretend that we can leave them to it. If we leave Iran to it, they'll fire nuclear bombs at Israel. If we leave radical Islam to it, they'll follow up 9/11 with similar attacks in all Western capitals. What everyone has forgotten so quickly is that we are fighting a war started by others. It's not going to go away simply because we bury our heads in the sand or pretend these leaders are really peace-loving idealists.

Really? So 9/11 was an aberration? If we leave them alone, they poison the minds of their children with hatred in schools (have you ever seen the curriculum in Palestinian schools?). They will evolve, but don't believe for one moment it will lead to peace.

Umm, if we left well alone, there would be no Israel, no 9/11 and probably no Islamic extremists. Where were they in 1947?
These examples are direct results of interference by the west. One could argue that the west created Islamic extremists after world war one.

She's a hero. She's to be admired. Thank God for people as unselfish as this dear lady.

I take it you know more about the lady in question. I thought she was a paid teacher in a school in Sudan. I'm guessing that you know that she was part of an aid program or some sort of volunteer??

The records of the of the Spanish Inquisition have led historians to estimate that up to 5000 people were killed over the 300 odd years of the Inquisition's run.

Unfortunately myth and propoganda trump documented history.

The Spanish Inquisition Era was just the best documented part of Spanish Christian excess. There was almost 1000 years of murder and abuse of over 200,000 Jews [Sephardis] by the government and church of Spain [or Iberia] from 587 AD until the expulsion of Jews in 1492. . .I don't think anybody counted the dead Aztecs and other native South Americans. . .

Having said that, I don't think the numbers define the atrocity. . .I just like to stir the pot from time to time.

I don't do religion. I can't find one that fits my thinking. How can a 1000 year-old rulebook still be valid? Where are the rules about conduct on internet fora?

I'm watching the Sudanese riots on TV and what scares me the most is that I doubt that a huge percentage of these people even know what a teddy bear is. [I don't say this lightly, I have lived in Muslim Africa] Still, somebody cries "Christian Extremist attacking our children" and up they rise.
They believe the hype and follow their leaders who use religion as stick and carrot.
In the west, people are just as quick to blindly follow general opinion, for example, we are led to believe that Palistinians are aggressors and we swallow this just like the Sudanese believe that a teddy bear's name can constitute blasphemy. . .If a technologically advanced alien race landed today and asked me if the human race should be exterminated or if we were worth keeping, I would have to lie to survive. . .

 

[Mortime Business Software]

dave_n wrote...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
when she's freed we should start a bombing campaign...of teddy bears...thousands of them all with a little tag round the neck saying 'hello i'm mo'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LOL! Stoppit. I can't stop laughing!

Dave

 

[dave_n]

dave_n wrote...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
when she's freed we should start a bombing campaign...of teddy bears...thousands of them all with a little tag round the neck saying 'hello i'm mo'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LOL! Stoppit. I can't stop laughing!

Dave

i've got much worse but I don't wanna be banned!

 

[estwig]

Don't worry Dave, go for it mate

 

[RayB]

Don't worry Dave, go for it mate

Don't encourage him

PS - I have a shipment of cheap teddies for sale at short notice, apparently the slogan on them has just gone out of fashion (or come into fashion, depending on your view............)

 

[dave_n]

no chance...i just got reported on a fishing forum for saying something about a teddy!!!

 

[RayB]

my favourite teddy is made out of silk, with quick release straps.................