Streets are safer ...my backside they are..

[Hedgie]

As an 11 year old boy is gunned down in Liverpool, I have to ask the question why police and politicians claim the streets are safer now and gun crime is on the decrease.....NOT FROM WHERE I'M STANDING THEY'RE NOT.

 

You have a problem in the mainland which will have to be addressed VERY soon - this type of crime is on the increase and unless it is nipped in the bud - you are going to lose a lot of kids.

Unfortunately I think that successive governments have been manipulating the figures, rather than addressing the problem - and it has now literally blown up in their faces.

There is no quick fix, but they still have to get onto some sort of fix soon - or a whole generation is gonna grow up with this type of crime and it will take a further generation or two to stamp out.

The other problem is that your police force is not equipped either manpower-wise or gun-savvy-wise to deal with this. It took the old RUC (now PSNI) years to come to terms with how to deal with armed criminals and they didn't often get it right. The only way it seems is to break a few human rights, and the UK is just not prepared to do that.

Shameful that wee lad - I feel awful sorry for his family. Is it me, or are these type of stories becoming very very frequent now?

 

[Zii]

I think parents should be held to account to some extent. Some of these kids need more attention from home and I am sure they will get that if the parents knew it was them that could be in prison aswell.

 

[Gillie]

I was sat in a local University yesterday listening to a lecture, and heard some news about all this. Apparently the government has approached several top class Uni's to devise a marketing plan that will alleviate this issue by telling the kids that it aint the done thing etc.

I sat there and wondered and though about it and then thought, hell why not, the other things like asbo's etc dont appear to work and neither does the threat of prison etc ... so I will sit and watch and wonder about this one!

 

There is no quick fix,

Oh yes there is:

Don't make guns

Don't make bullets

Don't sell guns

Take away the means for shooting kids and they won't get shot.

There are a million shot guns in private hands in the UK what exactly for?
they were designed to shoot something or someone.

I think the US demonstrates the effect of freely available firearms.

Now if you really feel compeled to shoot "Tweety" out of his tree a catapult will do fine

Earl

 

[Dawg]

At the same time the media is going Gasp! Shock Horror! about the terrible shooting, they are poking fun at the prosecution of a kid for throwing a sausage. 'Sausage boy', the media neglects to tell us, has had three previous warnings for this sort of behaviour. The OAP who complained thought that a stone had been thrown at him, and had made several previous complaints to the Police about the intimidating and harassing behaviour of the group of kids, of whom 'sausage boy' is one.
Unless we can send signals at a low level that some types of activity are unacceptable, kids will continue to push the boundaries, and, (without sounding like a Daily Mail splutterer), we will end up with kids with guns. As we have.
Zero tolerance*, aka The Broken window syndrome has a lot going for it.

(*Freakonomics readers: please disagree amongst yourselves).

 

[Hedgie]

These kids are going to find a way of getting hold of guns no matter what because they look up to the peers who unfortunatley are the gangsta rappers and so called bad boys who influence our youth by the music they churn out. Music about killing and rape and abuse and racism.

We have had church services every night this week from last sunday until this friday, we have had a visiting preacher from brixton in London. He is 38 years old an used to be a gang leader and general thug. Now he preaches to the kids and gangs in the cities to try to turn them away from the lives they are leading.

He went out into the local neighbourhood last saturday and on sunday night 26 youths aged 13-19 turned up in church. Those same kids bar a couple have been out to church every night this week.

The kids need better role models and whilst I agree that starts with the parents we also need to change the way things are glamorised in music and movies because the kids are influenced by this stuff.

 

[An Oasis]

Ask yourself the following:

Who runs the UK government or corporations?
If the average crime detection rate is 14% who runs the streets the police or the crims?

 

[Dawg]

Who runs the UK government or corporations?
If the average crime detection rate is 14% who runs the streets the police or the crims?

Richard, could you make your point a tad less opaque for the cranially arthritic old Dawg?
Are you trying to say that corporations run the country, and that the low crime detection rate signifies that the crims who might run the streets, are representatives of corporate, organized crime?

(Or is it the old marxist point that all property is theft, blah blah blah...)

 

[lex]

Well i agree with the guns comment that they should all be banned.

Stop selling guns and bullets in the UK, make sure anyone found with a gun on their person straight to prison. If there are no guns, then there are no problems with gun violence, yet it seems this answer is not so obvious to politicians.

Id like to know what the reason is for not just banning all guns etc?

Also ban air rifles unless that person has a real reason for needing one as alot of air rifle shootings lately. Also i dont see the need for people to have any type of potentially deadly weapon including cross bows etc unless they have applied for a license to use it for archery etc.

Fox hunting is banned, so farmers dont need guns anymore apart from to kill there animals but they use bolt guns for that now anyway?

There are people who go bird hunting, well make some kind of professional body who holds all the bird hunters guns and then monitors when they go hunting to make sure they dont go home with it so no one has a gun in their house.

 

[An Oasis]

Interesting concept my fluffy flea ridden friend!

25% of the money floating around this country is ________?

 

[Dawg]

25% of the money floating around this country is ________?

..without any trace of Columbian marching powder?
..floating past the 10 Yetis in Gloucester?
..in the form of £5 notes, but where the divil are they all?
..not used to buy MY BLOODY PLANTS? ARE YOU LISTENING? STOP DOING CRIME AND BUY MY PLANTS! I'LL DELIVER AND PUT YOU ON A WORDPRESS.ORG BLOG! BLOODY GOOD PLANTS THEY ARE BOYO! GOOD FRIENDS OF MINE..

(Has one been smoking one's plants?)

 

[lex]

Poorly Invested.

 

[An Oasis]

Well put simply... for the nice doggy, the wonga is not processed by the government but through other channels. So when the government and/or police say everything is going swimmingly you know they are just fighting a rear guard action.

 

[lockie]

Its ok saying stop selling guns but it wasnt a legally sold gun that did the killing of that boy.Banning guns has made absolutely no difference as so many are smuggled in or made or converted from replicas or decommissioned ones. When was the last time you heard of someone getting shot by a shotgun a legally sold item ? The only major one i can think of is the tony martin case,another debate entirely.

I visit burglary victims on a daily basis and see the impact on hardworking peoples lives (visited 2 today). Crime is going through the roof from where i am standing as im seeing a massive increase in burglary.

To many "rights" and a serious lack of parenting is causing this problem along with the benefits system.People are getting so used to being given everything they just take what they cant have.Look at the migration situation and thinking behind it, "go to britain they give you money and a house" which is true.
Kids are brought up to see mum and dads not working yet still getting most things from the local authority if they scream loud enough.Jump up and down and say racism or religion is involved and you get more for fear of law suits.
With several friends in the police i know they are snowed under with bureaucracy preventing them doing the job properly along with the pretend coppers.

A lot kids are conditioned from an early age that they are not responsible for their own actions.If a kid falls over at school you can bet the parents are straight up the school complaining or trying to get compensation,which teaches the kids what exactly ? I have several teacher friends and how they do the job is beyond me.They are powerless to do anything promptly as to discipline a child means they have to go and get another teacher to act as witness.

Bring back boxing in schools then if the kids have a problem they can go and sort it out the way they want in a controlled environment.After 2 rounds of trying to box each other they will be knackered and have more respect for each other than before and may even become friends.At least this way the knives are kept out of the equation.
The trouble is it isnt pc after all someone may get hit and possibly sue hence the vicious cycle.

Its the lack of belonging or insecurity that aids the gangs, the kids feel safe in a gang because they need confidence.They dont have the confidence to deal with everyday situations without resorting to violence in many cases.Once in the gang older or harder members get to influence them and it spirals into other things.

Over the years ive seen many kids and adults alike change into really good people through training in various martial arts yet its not taught in schools.Boys will always fight so lets guide them a little so it doesnt get out of hand till they get it out of their system and focus on other ways in life.

BTW i love rap music and dont feel the need to maim,shoot,rape or kill anyone.

 

[Dawg]

Lockie,
nice post, (and also on thread). I agree with almost all, however the Dinner Party classes would 'shoot' us down as horrible right wing nutters.

Richard:

the wonga is not processed by the government but through other channels

Are you saying that only money that goes through the government is legitimate? An interesting economic theory, but as Dawg is wont to say, completely barking.

 

[varybarry]

Good post Lockie. I agree completely.

 

Oh yes there is:

Don't make guns

Don't make bullets

Don't sell guns

Take away the means for shooting kids and they won't get shot.

There are a million shot guns in private hands in the UK what exactly for?
they were designed to shoot something or someone.

I think the US demonstrates the effect of freely available firearms.

Now if you really feel compeled to shoot "Tweety" out of his tree a catapult will do fine

Earl

The shotguns are not the problem. I had this argument a number of years ago with someone (English guy funny enough) who thought he could sort the NI problem out. Now, I had a shotgun or two for shooting clay pigeon targets and competed regularly. The average criminal is using a gun which SHOULD NOT and if the gov't is to be believed IS NOT available as a legally held weapon. Nobody is causing a problem with a shotgun - these are held in secure cabinets, etc.

It is the number of illegal weapons which are coming across our non-existant border checkpoints nowadays. Nothing used to get through Dover et al - but not now, you could come across with nearly anything.

The EU and freedom of movement is a problem, as is the free trade - only when it comes to being exploited though. The criminals can do almost anything nowadays and the rules change for the guy who doesn't break the law.

The gov't agencies know who the larger crim's are - take them out the back and get rid of them. Who cares about their human rights? Certainly not me.

 

[RayB]

Apparently the government has approached several top class Uni's to devise a marketing plan that will alleviate this issue by telling the kids that it aint the done thing etc.

Yep, another useless gimmick, we dont need marketing, we need ACTION:

• Lock the buggers up
• Replace the "Human Rights Act" with a "Human Responsibilities Act"
• Make defending ones own home sacred
• Make parents responsible for the actions of their children
• Bring back discipline - including the right for a copper or teacher to give a clip round the ear hole
• Stop wasting £107 billion on quango's every year and re-invest in real services, while cutting taxes and red tape at the same time
• Leave the EU (oops sorry OT)
• Make all MP's pass a "common sense" test (and when they all fail, move the commons to a Burger King near Grimsby to save space and costs - a "happy meal" in the corner near the games should be fine)

 

[toystoyou]

I think children/teenagers/even some adults need to have a healthy fear and respect instilled in them. And the only way to do that is ensure there are consequences for their actions.
They have no fear as there are no consequences to their actions (parental and judicial) and they have no respect for government, the police, parents, etc, etc because they know nobody can do anything to stop them.
In my previous life as a journo I sat through too many court cases where youngsters appeared again and again and too many times they left the dock with a huge smirk on their faces as probation or suspended sentence was handed down to them and off they went to do the same thing again safe in the knowledge there's no consequences/punishment.
I didn't get into trouble as a kid or an adult cos my parents made sure I had a healthy fear and respect for them, my elders and the people in authority. I felt I had a right to question authority but not to push the boundaries. I knew my boundaries and I learnt that there were consequences for all my actions.
There are no consequences anymore. Murder doesn't mean life in the courts now, it means 11 years in prison and often they serve a lot less due to time off for good behaviour!!
Teachers can't even discipline children in school and too many parents will stick up for the kids regardless of what they do. Y'know the type, just like the 'sausage mum' who thinks her kid did nothing wrong!!
I agree with zero tolerance it's the only way forward. If you break the law you should be suitably (by suitably I mean an actual punishment) punished.
Julie

 

Now I suspect that most of us agree with Julie's post?

so someone tell me why the law is not doing what I suspect the majority want .

Earl

 

[RayB]

someone tell me why the law is not doing what I suspect the majority want

Earl

A very good question indeed, IMO politicians have lost the backbone to tackle real issues, coupled with spineless liberal civil servants being "yes men"

 

[Silverleaf Clothing]

(*Freakonomics readers: please disagree amongst yourselves).

A good book! I wonder if abortion rates affect gun crime?*.......


(*not being offensive - read the book)

Cheers

Alex

 

[Dawg]

Silvery One

I wonder if abortion rates affect gun crime?*

Feakonomics really never sorted this one out:
Chapter 3: why drug dealers live at home with their mums.
Chapter 4: why abortion stopped crime.

From which we can infer that drug dealers are Catholic, as their mums didn't have abortions....but we really, really don't want to go down that road.

It is a good book, and has a lot about the effects of unintended consequences. Like the unintended consequence of being cuddly liberal huggy nice to brutal toe rags is that they continue to be brutal toe rags.

 

[Alice3537]

I also couldn't believe the story about the toddler shot with an air gun by her 6 year old sister - now, if that isn't an issue with irresponsible adults, I don't know what is!

In the city I live in, I was told that the police force is funded as though it was a rural one; we have high rates of violent related crime and are known for having gun and knife related offences; I met a serving officer who is on the ARU and was surprised (although not shocked) at just how many incidents there are.

I live in a quiet cul de sac - one which is in a nice area, but verging on a not so nice one. There was a time during which stolen cars were constantly left outside our house - in the end, I just used to ring the local station, give the licence details, make and model of car and tax disk details (I got used to the drill) and not even bother with anything else. The police told us they knew who was responsible but 'could do nothing' unless they caught them. My neighbours have CCTV onto the road but when my car was broken into, the police said they couldn't use footage as there are issues regarding civil liberties or some such rubbish if the camera points into a public area in any way.

If people are able to feel that they can break the law/cause disturbance issues etc with the minor, it ain't long til they move to the major.

I firmly believe in freedom - just wish it was more about the freedom of the law abiding

One final point (thank god, I hear you say/think!) - isn't it a shame that we here so many bad comments about the 'yoof of today' in the media that it becomes a 'lovely surprise' or 'shock' when we encounter or read about a well adjusted, intelligent, balanced teenager? There are many of them about, I suspect.

 

[Gillie]

Yep .. me has three of them here for a start!

Boredom has to be a factor in inner cities ... what is there for these kids to do apart from hang around street corners, drinking, fighting and being a general pain in the jackzee.

Their parents cant be bothered with them so they head off to find their own amusement, much to the detriment of others.

Find things to keep them occupied, get them interested in their local community as a whole be it with sport or music, get them to take responsibility for their actions too, so they see a consequence for it.

Things such as the 'wonderful' Pete Doherty don't help when he is constantly let off by the judicial system for his drug habits. What kind of message does that send to potential hooligans??

 

[Alice3537]

Yep .. me has three of them here for a start!

Boredom has to be a factor in inner cities ... what is there for these kids to do apart from hang around street corners, drinking, fighting and being a general pain in the jackzee.

Their parents cant be bothered with them so they head off to find their own amusement, much to the detriment of others.

Find things to keep them occupied, get them interested in their local community as a whole be it with sport or music, get them to take responsibility for their actions too, so they see a consequence for it.

Things such as the 'wonderful' Pete Doherty don't help when he is constantly let off by the judicial system for his drug habits. What kind of message does that send to potential hooligans??

Oh, god - don't start me on Pete Docherty et al, or we'll be off-topic quicker than you can say off topic!

Seems strange that in this day and age (god, did I actually just USE that expression!!!) with all the technology to make life easier, parents can't find time to spend with their children instilling some basic values. Also, as so much is made of the 'inner city' kids, it would be nice for the media to spend more time focusing on the 'good parents' trying, against all the odds, to bring up 'good children'.

I already said (I think) that I don't have children, so I'm a little out of the loop - don't they have youth centers and after school clubs anymore? I agree about there not being enough to do as that has been a factor in every survey reported for gosd only knows how long!

 

[lockie]

I worked on a senior police officers home recently and we had this conversation about kids not having anything to do but that is not always the case.He mentioned one high crime area where lots of money had been spent on sorting activities for the kids from basketball,places to hang out, music workshops (dj'ing) and more yet they cannot get enough people to attend so a lot look set to close.

When i used to teach martial arts we used to invite people to watch and we always used to get groups of bored kids coming in to take the p***. One night it got out of hand so i asked the biggest,gobbiest one if he could demostrate to everyone his own abilities as he was taking the pee out of everyone else. I told him to try and punch me and i wouldnt hit him back.About a minute later he was worn out, didnt get anywhere near the task of actually hitting me and probably felt totally belittled.
I now asked if he wanted to train with us next week for free and his reaction was, mum wouldnt let me.
He never came back which was a real shame but i wondered what he did do instead.What parent produces a kid limited in life by their parents own decisions.
The kid had no hope or ambition basically as it was taken away by his own parents from the sounds of it.
I was always encouraged as a child to try new things so its hard to understand what other children have to go through being brought up in a different manner.

 

[Alice3537]

Strange reaction from the kid as if his mum wouldn't allow him to train, he wouldn't be there in the first place if she kept an eye on where he was - if she didn't how would she know if he went to train?

 

[Cornish Steve]

Oh yes there is:

Don't make guns

Don't make bullets

Don't sell guns

Sorry, Earl, but I disagree completely. Guns don't kill people; people kill people. If guns aren't available, those people will kill with knives or with whatever else is available. I'm not against reasonable gun control, but the real problem is with people, not with the weapons they choose. (As for accidents, parents who own guns must act responsibly - and be held accountable if they allow those guns to fall into the hands of children. That's no different than leaving bottles of aspirin within a child's grasp.)

Let me be frank - and I'm sure this won't go down well. I've been to over 70 countries, and I'm the type of person who loves to go out walking in the city. I've done this all over the place, including some countries with bad reputations: Brazil, Bolivia, India, China, Bangladesh, Vietnam, Russia, Ukraine, South Africa, and many more. One of the places where I feel most nervous is London! On my most recent visit, within about 100 yards of my hotel, I was trailed by two youths who started to act in a rather threatening way. It was a relief to make it back to the hotel lobby. (I'm not alone in this; others behave more cautiously when visiting Britain than when visiting other countries in Europe. We may not want to hear it, but it's true.)

Again, the problem is with people and with attitudes; it's not with their chosen weapons.

 

[Alice3537]

I appreciate what you are saying, Steve, but when I hear people saying that 'guns are a fashion accessory' (BBCNews24) it kind of makes me think we should tackle one thing at a time!

I was trailed by two youths who started to act in a rather threatening way. It was a relief to make it back to the hotel lobby. (I'm not alone in this; others behave more cautiously when visiting Britain than when visiting other countries in Europe. We may not want to hear it, but it's true.)

I can easily believe that - whether it's due to reality or reporting is a different matter. I go to London very regularly and, to be honest, I am far more worried about the purselifters than having a potshot taken at me! Not so long ago, every Brit going to Florida thought they were taking their lives into their own hands by hiring a car as these were prime targets for criminals.

IMO, this country has A LOT to learn about values at the moment, but I don't think we should scaremonger!

 

[Cornish Steve]

I appreciate what you are saying, Steve, but when I hear people saying that 'guns are a fashion accessory' (BBCNews24) it kind of makes me think we should tackle one thing at a time!

I've never heard of that, and there's no excuse for it. Where was the article about?

 

[lex]

Well theres always the internet or TV

Guns or obesity - the choice is yours!

 

[Alice3537]

I've never heard of that, and there's no excuse for it. Where was the article about?

I may not have been clear enough - it was someone talking abut crime and commenting that guns are a fashion accessory (he wasn't a politician!) - the reason I said News24 is that it was on tv when I got home. I can do a search and see what I come up with, but I've heard this sort of comment more than once when people are talking about the gun culture over here, in the media.

 

[Cornish Steve]

Sorry, Alice. I didn't mean to put you on the spot! Your point was well taken.

 

[Alice3537]

No problem, Steve - I hate it when I quote what I heard on the radio or saw on TV as often there is no POR for it! I searched and couldn't find the piece, though they might well show it again tonight as New24 is on a loop much of the time!!

 

[ken_uk]

...
My neighbours have CCTV onto the road but when my car was broken into, the police said they couldn't use footage as there are issues regarding civil liberties or some such rubbish if the camera points into a public area in any way.
...

The UK police in general are clueless when it comes to CCTV issues.

If you are *ever* given advice by a police officer regarding CCTV, or footage from cctv, then I would recommend getting a second opinion from a specialist.

I have seen incorrect advice on police websites (such as stating ALL cctv must have signage etc), I have even seen (firsthand) the police's failure to even view important CCVT footage.

As for the camera pointing into a public area, it depends on where it's pointing, is it pointing into other people's gardens and windows? Are the other residents of the cul-de-sac ok with the camera? At worst, someone could get a solicitor to ask you to take the camera down, but the police should still have viewed the footage at the least, even if only to gather evidence for informational purposes.

As a private resident, the camera normally would not need to be registered under the data protection act, and if its just pointing at the road, there is not much in the way of infringements of civil liberties - plus the fact there was a known problem in that cul-de-sac, so the camera was there for a reason.

Plus at the end of the day, it is the job of the police to catch the criminals, its the crown and the courts who prosecute/punish the criminals. Let the judge decide if the footage is admissable.

Did the police order the camera to be taken down? Or did they just fob you off saying they could not use the footage, then ignore the fact the camera is still there?

 

[Alice3537]

They fobbed me off! And it goes from the house across the end of the cul de sac over to (almost) mine and I have no problem with it at all!

Some of the others who know it is there park near to it when they park on street, as it's known they have one.

Personally, I think we should all be 'allowed' to have one - their car's never been broken into! Mind you, I keep mine off the street, so it's not so much of an issue as long as I remember to bring it in!!

 

[cjd]

Bugger. I've been avoiding this thread like the plague, then I click on it by accident and it opens at Steve's, just to the right of Atilla the Hun, aphorism

"Guns don't kill people; people kill people."

it's almost like god wanted me here.

People with guns kill people.

It takes both method and intent. A drive by killing with a knife requires a little more skill so we can assume that without guns there would be fewer but more skilful murders AND that this one wouldn't have happened.

 

[Tobes]

omg talk of Florida reminds me (and yes I did hear the same problem about Florida, they took off/suggested taking the rental signifiers so the tourists didn't get buggered!) of an episode of Top Gear (surely you know it, Jeremy Clarkson...) shot in America...It was so unbelievable, outrageous and at the same time funny; the presenters ended up getting chased by local people because they'd written on the outside of their cars things like 'Nascar sucks', stuff about being gay etc...