Streets are safer ...my backside they are..

[Eagle]

When I did certain 'wrongs' as a child I was thrashed to within an inch of my life (with a belt).

In retrospect, I deserved it. And I remain a model citizen.

It must be something else causing society's ills, not physical parental discipline.

Perhaps a lack of it. That and teaching morality and mutual respect.


_

 

[Eagle]

Sheltering your child from violence isn't necessarily the right tactic either. Teaching them that violence is wrong is the best way to raise a nonviolent child.

Teaching a child that violence is wrong may one day get them killed if they're attacked in the street...

 

[PI Guy]

Someone once said, "My mother always told me that violence doesn't solve anything."

And someone answered, " Really? I wonder what the city founders of Hiroshima would have to say about that."

 

[cjd]

It seems to me that a lot of parents don't have much of an idea how to deal with their own kids.

Not just the poor and dim ones - lots of others too. They seem to allow them to do pretty much what they want, almost as though they're frightened of them.

I'm not sure I know why or how this has come about, but anecdotally it seems true.

 

[RayB]

There is a difference between "violence" and "discipline"

These days it is illegal to clip a kid round the ear - "violence"

In the old days it was "discipline"

The problem kids who have been subject to violence at home - that violence has nothing to do with discipline - it is abuse

The sooner the liberal elite connect with that distinction the better

 

[cjd]

There is a difference between "violence" and "discipline"

These days it is illegal to clip a kid round the ear - "violence"

In the old days it was "discipline"

The problem kids who have been subject to violence at home - that violence has nothing to do with discipline - it is abuse

The sooner the liberal elite connect with that distinction the better

I'm happy to join the liberal elite here and point out that 'violence', 'discipline' and 'abuse' all amount to the same thing - it's called criminal assault.

It has no place in our society when we deal with adults - that's why we have it as a criminal offence - and it has even less of a place when dealing with children.

It's simply not necessary to assault children.

 

[ken_uk]

It has no place in our society when we deal with adults - that's why we have it as a criminal offence - and it has even less of a place when dealing with children.

But children are not legally responsible for their actions, they can commit criminal offences and get away with them.

If a adult breaks the law, they (hopefully) get punished. If a kid breaks the law, nothing much seems to happen. If kids were locked up when they broke the law, then that would put them on a equal footing to adults. The kids know this, and they revel in it.

As it is, kids are not held responsible for their actions, and usually neither are their parents.

If the law protects kids, it should also protect victims of the kids, and punish the kids or the parents of the kids who break the law, depending on circumstances.

 

[Cornish Steve]

I'm happy to join the liberal elite here and point out that 'violence', 'discipline' and 'abuse' all amount to the same thing - it's called criminal assault.

It has no place in our society when we deal with adults - that's why we have it as a criminal offence - and it has even less of a place when dealing with children.

It's simply not necessary to assault children.

On the whole, I agree - although I'm not an absolutist. There were times with one of my boys when he needed and got a spanking (maybe three or four times during his childhood). He knew, I knew it, and it happened. It was not a knee-jerk reaction, and he had to wait - which almost made it worse for him. It was for breaking clearly defined rules, which we'd agreed in advance. I'd say he's a much better person for it. It was a last resort as he'd had many chances to change his ways beforehand. I don't count my behaviour as violent at all, and it hurt me emotionally more than it hurt him physically.

Looking at my children today, I'm proud of all of them. It's been very hard work, guiding them and enforcing ground-rules consistently for many years. Being a parent is not for the faint of heart. In that sense, you're right that many parents don't want to accept that responsibility.

 

[lockie]

Well my mum had me at 17 in a time when it wasnt acceptable to be a teenage mum.I was born out of wedlock to make things worse for her.She still managed to get o levels and a levels (back when they meant something). She turned down a career at ibm to raise me and later met and married a wonderful man im proud to call my dad.
My mum always told me fighting was wrong but i hate to say it, it was bad advice. I got bullied throughout school and it only stopped when i lost complete control and punched one of my tormentors onto his back.After that everyone left me alone. After i left school i took up martial arts so now bullying isnt a problem as i have the confidence and also the physical ability to deal with it.

When growing up we weren't allowed a video player in the house as even back then our parents could see how it could desensitize you to certain material. Remember when the texas chainsaw massacre was banned ?yet now its on most nights on sky.

Kids think violence is normal and think its needed to prevent loss of "respect". They hate "loss of face" and will do anything to "save it".

I went to a selective school and back then teachers ruled the roost, they would throw those great big wooden board rubbers at you !!
I was in the last year it was a selective school and after that it bacame a comprehensive.As a first hand witness to the change i have to say it went downhill from there.You had out of control kids disrupting classes but worse still they influenced others.The brighter ones didnt get any attention as the rotten eggs gained all the attention through their bad behaviour. I will never forget the day it when gossip went round the school that the class below me had made a teacher cry, it was unheard of and a shock.

With all this helping out the badly behaved kids we have forgotten about the brighter well behaved kids. If a school trys to expel an out of control pupil the school governors can over rule it and get the kid returned thus conditioning the child the behaviour is acceptable as nothing will happen.

When i had a dabble at shop lifting and got caught my dad took me out into the street and gave me the belt in public. I never considered a life of crime after that. It was the only time he ever hit me and im grateful for the lesson it taught.

It discipline thats needed with no get out clauses.If the school governors disagree they should not undermine the previous decision and sort it out behind closed doors but should stick by the decision just as parents should and work as a team.

 

[lex]

Hmm... Turns out someone was stabbed and died last night just down the road from me.

 

[cjd]

My smiley, five foot and not much more, charming blond wife can floor a 6 foot aggressive, teenage boy with a single 'I'm disappointed in you' look.

Fighting aggression with aggression is counter-productive.

This 'I was beaten by my father in the street and it did me no harm' stuff is tosh - it did do harm and an awful lot of it. But mostly those parents loved their kids and were trying to do the right thing - altho' in my mind wrongly and unecessarily.

Kids that are loved are mostly not at risk; it's the kids of parents that don't give a damn and in fact dislike and disown their children that we are worrying about here.

(And btw, I too think it's bad advice to tell kids always not to fight - sometimes kids need to defend themselves in their own 'culture' and sometimes that means fighting back. Learning when to fight and when to walk away is an integral part of learning about life. My beef is with the abuse of power that adults can have over children.)

 

[ChrisMono]

kinda obvious when the news says 'why are so many more people emigrating out of the UK?'

well yeh duhhh you cant walk down to your shops nowadays without being accosted...

seriously the Uk is a bad place to live for young people...
-> have to face the increasing debt epsecially student loan.
-> rubbish weather
-> streets full of low life wannabe gangsters who just look pathetic.
-> house prices to expensive

 

I get the feeling the UK is a bubble waiting to burst. I don't think any one thing will sort it out - but I hate watching kids getting hurt while it all comes to a head.

A slap around the ear-hole never done me any harm - but I cannot practise what I preach. I cannot lift my hands to a kid or a woman, just not in me I'm afraid.

I am quite happy to give a bloke a slap if he needs it though

 

Well as psychologists suspect that childrens main role models are there parents,Then surely we have to start there ?

and of course poor parenting is aided by the various politicaly correct laws which result in a childs next most important role model .There teachers being powerless to teach the little darlings anything and probably spending 80% of class time just trying to maintain class order.

so there we have it its the parents fault.

well actualy no.its societies fault.

A society that makes it imperative that both parents are working and usualy such long hours ,that they neither have the time or the energy to do much parenting ,and how did this happen when I as a child was taught that by the year 1980 we would all be working 20 hours a week ,and the major problem would be what we were going to do in our leisure time.
( Parkinson )

well where I live a dump of a house will cost you £250,000

and a house I bought in 1964 for £5,400 will cost you now £800,000

now at the time I worked as a Toolmaker and could afford a £800,000 (by todays value ) house and support a wife and 2 kids.I may be waffling a bit.but what happened to the beifits of automation computers e.t.c which would have allowed society to pay a bit more attention to its kids.

does the word greed rear its ugly head ? or am I just an old cynic.

Earl

 

I'll give you that CJD - we do have advantages that we take for granted.

NI is booming financially - we are getting investment from here there and everywhere. Peace seems to have arrived and people are generally upbeat. I have never known this place to be going so well - I grew up in the 70's (well born in 1970) and all I have ever known was wanton destruction and horrendous killings. We are all starting to wonder what it was all about really...

Maybe we are letting a story or two get us all thinking negatively. It is a crying shame though that a kid gets hurt, but murdered at 11 is horrible.

I don't think there is a solution though - and it will get worse before people finally wise up.

 

[RayB]

btw - this country is not 'SCREWED

It is, big time with knobs on

stop reading the Daily Mail.

Only if you stop reading the Guardian

 

[An Oasis]

Damn someone who thinks the same way as me, maybe there is hope left for this country?

I'm joining the RayB party, when are you standing for election mate I'm there for you. I'm sick of the namby pamby state attitude of it's someone else fault. It's about time these feckless, useless parents actually did their ****ing job.

 

[computerfaq]

I've done a bit of youth work before I decided what I wanted to do with myself. A lot of the problems we have in this country don't come down to bad parenting, but more fearful parenting. Most parents these days are soo scared that they'll be sued or sent to court for even disiplining their children. It really makes me angry, and was the main reason I couldn't remain working with kids.

 

I have a sister with a 7yo daughter. Now that kid just lights up my day when I see her, so smart and so funny combined. I look at the attention she gets and the care her mother puts into her and I know she is going to be fine in later life.

I look on the street and I see horrible mothers trailing their poor kids about like rag dolls, shouting at them and generally being horrible and it saddens me. You can nearly tell the kids who do not have a chance - but there is nothing anyone can (or will) do about it - that I can see anyway.

We all know the way that they should be treated - but who forgot to tell these idiots who become mothers nowadays?

 

[Qualitee]

I have spent so long reading this thread, I forgot the topic!

We need to bring back the Police on the street (that will be the grown up one's).

We need to actually hand out prison sentences, not community service. The sentence should be carried out all the way through.

We need to get rid of the ridiculous parts of the Human Rights Act.

We need to be in charge of our own country and make our own rules and stick with them too!!!

How on earth can smacking my children for being naughty be classed as 'assault', 'abuse' or 'violence'. If I have told my 9 (son) and 4 yr old (daughter), two or three times not to do something and they go and do it, then a smack across the backside is teaching them that they either follow the rules or they get punished.

The reason it is called assault if I were to do the same to an is because I would do it a whole lot harder

We are new to our lovely rural village and my son has joined the karate team and the rugby. The Community Centre is right opposite our house, so for the first time ever I allowed him to go out (across the road!) to the school holiday playscheme. I followed with his sister 10 minutes later, to find him crying on his way back home. A couple of the boys, one being aged 11, decided to give him a kicking on the ground (no my son does not fight, although he is being told to whack back), I gave the kids involved my personal opinion, and it is quite likely the entire neighbourhood heard. A playscheme worker took the group of boys away and then brought them back and one apologised, my son turned to the boy who was kicking him and said "you are the one to apologise, you say it"..........the boy did!!!! What surprised me though was the fact that the scheme worker came over to me shortly after and asked me to fill in paperwork because I had used the word bullying I declined her offer as I explained to her that I had dealt with the situation and the words "don't pick on my little boy" just don't have the same impact when I am screaming.

We have got far to politically correct.

I would just like to say, if I may, that if one poster says a good hiding with a belt did him no harm, I think it is offensive for someone to contradict that when the person is speaking personally.

That is my 2penneth. I am off to bed to read my wonderful Daily Mail

Pauline

 

[lockie]

CJD i would love to live where ever it is you live as it seems lah lah land is a great place to be. Whilst fitting a lock tonight i was able to witness a street fight outside the house i was working on.In this is area its a pretty normal activity unfortunately. If you think going through life without ever having to use violence as a tool to resolve a situation is ok then you must live in a bloody nice area, not everyone has that option.

Now step outside of your nice area and try to imagine what it is like to grow up in a bad area.The strongest survive and that is the rule, you dont fight and you dont survive simple as. What are you going to do when the day comes and your about to get mugged ? Sometimes you have to wake up and smell the coffee.
When your getting your face smashed in by some drunken thug are you telling me that if i came along and sorted him out ( with controlled violence) that your going to say it wasnt the right thing to do ?
Read some books by jeff thompson and see how the world it really is.

Over the years ive seen so many martial artists fall apart after getting attacked by a hardened street thug because they were "holding back".Violence isnt pretty and its a horrible experience but sometimes violence is the only solution.When your getting your face smashed in by an attacker,talking him out of it isnt an option.If you can give me another viable option to this situation then i may take on board what you are saying.

I await your answer.........

 

I have spent so long reading this thread, I forgot the topic!

We need to bring back the Police on the street (that will be the grown up one's).

We need to actually hand out prison sentences, not community service. The sentence should be carried out all the way through.

We need to get rid of the ridiculous parts of the Human Rights Act.

We need to be in charge of our own country and make our own rules and stick with them too!!!

How on earth can smacking my children for being naughty be classed as 'assault', 'abuse' or 'violence'. If I have told my 9 (son) and 4 yr old (daughter), two or three times not to do something and they go and do it, then a smack across the backside is teaching them that they either follow the rules or they get punished.

The reason it is called assault if I were to do the same to an is because I would do it a whole lot harder



Pauline

Its called assualt because as human beings we have other means of communication not involving violence which is illegal.

Earl

 

[lockie]

Rereading your post cjd im actually quite offended that you can say because my father disciplined me with a belt ONCE it has caused harm.What harm has it caused ?

 

[estwig]

Smacking children is wrong, inflicting pain on a child, this is what smacking is, is wrong.

Using violence to defend yourself is a completely separate issue.

 

[Cornish Steve]

Smacking children is wrong, inflicting pain on a child, this is what smacking is, is wrong.

Using violence to defend yourself is a completely separate issue.

If it's a knee-jerk reaction, a moment of revenge or frustration or temper, I agree. If it's considered punishment after repeated warnings have gone unheeded and the child deliberately disobeys, and after time has passed to allow any feelings of anger or frustration to subside, then it's discipline. I've used it on my boys just a handful of times and, trust me, they knew they'd crossed the line. Frankly, their pride was hurt more than their rear ends.

For society in general, though, I'd defend Colin's position. I don't believe that violence should beget an immediate violent response. As much as humanly possible, I'd turn the other cheek. If it comes across as weakness, so be it, but I'm not going to bow to base instincts. It's one thing to impose discipline in a considered manner; it's something else to respond instantly with anger and temper and hatred to someone else's taunting.

Once again, though, the issue is one of values and absolute moral law. Without them, we descend into disorder and violence and "survival of the fittest". Values have been taught within the family structure for generations, but our so-called enlightened generation thinks it knows better.

 

[asonda]

I partly agree with many of the things being said here, with BOTH sides of the story...

When I was a little kid, I never really stepped out of line...There was the odd moment I misbehaved...

The thing is, When my Mum told me off...it didn't effect me much, as she was always the one, who would tell me off, for everything, no matter how small....however, my Dad would only tell me off, if I had actually done something properly 'naughty', when he told me off 'without the need of smacking/pain' I hasten to add...it hurt, because it really felt like I'd let him down??

What does this mean? I was never a naughty boy, I never got into trouble at nursery, school, secondary school, college ever, never even had a detention....

I had the first seven years of my life at Nottingham...so why have I never turned to violence etc? Have I had a good up bringing...did my parents know when and when not to discipline me??

Is it down to them, or was it really down to me, knowing that I was a good boy, knowing I have a good conscience/morals...??

 

[Cornish Steve]

In part, I think it does depend on the child's personality. My two girls have always been angels, and there has been little need to do more than remind them occasionally of things they "forget". Two of my boys, likewise, are quite placid and rarely need to be told more than once. The other two boys, though, would be absolute terrors by now if we hadn't handled them carefully and imposed strict limits. They'd always try (and the younger one still does) to go just beyond those limits, but we'd stay vigilant and impose penalties as needed. There were days (and still are) when I really thought my wife would pull all her hair out. In the end, though, you get out of things what you put into them - and what might appear to be heart-ache right now will, over time, be seen to be a wise investment of time. It's a tough job being a parent.

When others boast in conversation about all their financial investments, I gladly tell them that our investments all have two legs. We've invested a lot of love and time and money and frustration in raising our children, but I have every confidence that it will have been a wise investment.

 

[ken_uk]

Discipline has been taught for a very long time, its even mentioned in the bible, quite a lot of times.

Im not religious, but its interesting how many times punishment of children is mentioned in the bible (there may be more mentions, but these are the ones I am aware of)

Proverbs 23:13-14 (New International Version)



13 Do not withhold discipline from a child;
if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. 14 Punish him with the rod
and save his soul from death.
Proverbs 13:24


24 He who spares the rod hates his son,
but he who loves him is careful to discipline him
Proverbs 22:15


15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child,
but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him

Proverbs 29:15


15 The rod of correction imparts wisdom,
but a child left to himself disgraces his mother

 

[Cornish Steve]

The rod of correction imparts wisdom,
but a child left to himself disgraces his mother

The words may be politically incorrect in these times, but don't they just ring true? I can't think of a more succinct way to put it.

 

[SpeedyExpressCouriers]

Here is another one for you guys, days after the shooting of an 11 year, 2 doormen are shot at a nightclub.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6963309.stm

Are our streets safer??? Mmm.... for somebody moving out of the country they are, and for us? They get worse everyday.

 

[RayB]

Discipline has been taught for a very long time, its even mentioned in the bible, quite a lot of times.

Im not religious, but its interesting how many times punishment of children is mentioned in the bible (there may be more mentions, but these are the ones I am aware of)

Proverbs 23:13-14 (New International Version)



13 Do not withhold discipline from a child;
if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. 14 Punish him with the rod
and save his soul from death.
Proverbs 13:24


24 He who spares the rod hates his son,
but he who loves him is careful to discipline him
Proverbs 22:15


15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child,
but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him

Proverbs 29:15


15 The rod of correction imparts wisdom,
but a child left to himself disgraces his mother

Amen to that - it is called wisdom

 

[RayB]

BTW - nobody seemed to pick up my comment about the Government spending £107 billion per annum on useless quangos

If you scrapped them all tomorrow there would be enough money to solve all the social issues, fix the public services and give everybody a whopping tax cut.

Indeed the Labour party is trying to pull apart the Tories pledge to cut inheritance tax, corporation tax and red tape to the tune of £20 billion -saying it will savage public services! - whilst they are wasting these unbelieveable sums on quangos who just make things worse

It's is a scandal

 

[FreeLocal]

All UKBF members are sitting on the answer, each day and every day. We should set up a web page/site [ as a knee jerk reaction I have just registered www.saferbritain.co.uk ] which promotes a strap line message . . . HELP PROMOTE A SAFER BRITAIN.

We then each add a free link to our sites and on our sites add a link to saferbritain.co.uk. I would also like to see the message carried as a strapline on emails. We would all be putting our name to the campaign to raise the profile of the message we would like to put across. There is obviously a need for something looking at the content of these posts.

Anyone interested? Anyone wish to create the pages?

Just as a note . . . I was listening to TALKSPORT yesterday and they kept going on about Breakdown Britain, I checked the domain it was available, this morning it has gone. That must tell us that this is a high-profile topic. The free links could be arranged geographically, a-z, date, or by type etc.

 

[computerfaq]

Put me down for that. If you need a hand with the hosting I'm sure I've got a spare reseller account somewhere that could be used!

 

[cjd]

Funny how debates always turn into black and white. Just for the record:

I believe violence is justifiable and necessary when defending oneself, ones family and ones country. I am not a pacifist. I hope I would personally be able to use violence effectively it if I had to. I expect not tho' - it takes practice and an instinct for it; neither of which I possess. To be used effectively it need to be done without thinking because if you think it's too late - unfortunately, I think a lot.

(Also, for the record I broke the nose of the school bully and was left alone thereafter - I got mad and lucky; but I could just as easily had the living crap knocked out of me.)

Adults deliberately hitting children is just wrong and worse; it's totally unnecessary - neither of my kids have been hit by an adult and if they had been I suspect that would have been one of the occasions I would have wanted to be violent myself. Kids need love not violence.

There is no shortage of violence in the lives of the kids that are now out of control - if violence against kids was the answer, those kids would be the best behaved we have.

Steve occasionally hitting his 'naughty' kids will not harm them - the key point there is that they are unconditionally loved and battering them isn't a daily event. I still say it's unnecessary - a belittling and degrading experience for both child and adult.

And Lockie, I wasn't referring to you specifically, you simply used a phrase that is often used - "I was regularly beaten at school/home by teachers/my father and 'it did me no harm"

I think it often did a lot of harm; maybe not in your case and maybe not in mine (because it was rare and backed by love) but it demonstrates to kids that violence is a solution - it's not.

My memory of the use of violence by teachers at school was that it was totally ineffective - I often chose 6 of the cane rather than a Saturday morning detention - it was NOT the marvellous cure all that those wanting it back wish it to be.

Those quotes from the bible are several thousand years old; people were only just surfacing from the neolithic era - literally from the STONE AGE. They killed people for adultery (only the women of course), kept slaves, mutilated girls, and all the other barbarisms you can think of - not excluding recommending the live sacrifice of a son to Yahweh. I find it incomprehensible that anyone would find hitting a child with a stick "wisdom".

 

[Qualitee]

Its called assualt because as human beings we have other means of communication not involving violence which is illegal.

Earl

That is the point isn't it? It is illegal to assault someone but our courts are allowing people to walk free.

Do we remember that little boy that was murdered by two young boys (Boulger?). Hasn't one of them been released and given a totally new identity

Our Governments/Police say we need to learn lessons from these events and change things but the only way it changes is it seems to get worse.

I totally believe in discipline, both in the home, on the streets and at school.

Pauline

 

[cjd]

Much as I hate to pollute opinion with fact; you can find satistics on UK crime over the last 25 years here:

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs07/crime0607summ.pdf

Focus on violent crime

BCS violent crime did not show a statistically significant change over the
last year but there have been substantial falls since the mid 1990s (a fall
of 41% or over half a million fewer victims since 1995).

Police recorded violence against the person fell by 1% from last year. This
was the first fall in the recorded number for eight years. There was a 9%
decrease in most serious violence against the person last year.

Most serious violence against the person accounted for just 2% of total
violence against the person offences in 2006/07, but includes the crimes
of homicide, attempted murder and more serious woundings.

Police recorded robbery increased by 3% over the last 12 months. This is
16% below the 2001/02 peak in robbery.

We mustn't let single news events and Daily Mail sensationalism get in the way of reason - things really aren't getting worse and things never were as rosy as we like to think they were.

Even though BCS crime has fallen since 1995, people believe that crime
is rising. Around two in three people believe that crime nationally has
increased in the last two years.

 

[FreeLocal]

Much as I hate to pollute opinion with fact; you can find satistics on UK crime over the last 25 years here:

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs07/crime0607summ.pdf



We mustn't let single news events and Daily Mail sensationalism get in the way of reason - things really aren't getting worse and things never were as rosy as we like to think they were.

You might call it sensationalism. Someone's child has died at the hands of a street culture that is getting out of hand by the day.

 

[cjd]

You might call it sensationalism. Someone's child has died at the hands of a street culture that is getting out of hand by the day.

We find it appalling precisely because it is so unusual

It is NOT getting worse by the day. It's just a perception that it is because a couple of horrific events have happened close together and the press have had an easy job to do.

We need to stop panicking and threatening kids and parents with biblical punishments that are proven to not work and start thinking coolly and rationally about it.

 

The problem with the statistics is that they are being tweaked and reported differently. I know this as I used to sit on a Community Police Liaison Committee for my local village. The police were trying to be seen to deliver figures each quarter on the crimes rates, etc - but the whole method of reporting was distorted by spin.

The other thing is - a heck of a lot of people are not now reporting crimes - so the lesser ones are not being added in, again distorting the figures. The police practically tell someone who has their front windows smashed that there isn't much they can do, record the 'visit' but don't then actually record the 'crime' itself - therefore it never reaches the stats.

Spin runs our country nowadays - and it doesn't really help.

Where I live a vast majority of people will not go to the police to report crimes. If it is something they feel they can sort, then they will do it themselves - or they just get on with it. There are numerous 'feuds' which simmer for years amongst families, etc, but none of the assaults or criminal damage these cause are ever included in any police reporting stats.