Software as a Service Overload (small rant)

[ffox]

This thread will always be polarised with valid arguments on both sides. If you want to use SAAS that's fine. If you don't that's OK as well. But don't tell me one is any better than the other as it isn't. It's just a different way of doing things.

I can't argue with that, but the OP was -

The benefits of SaaS are really good particularly the whole cloud storage of content and automatic backup etc. BUT try integrating functions across your business and you are completely stuck in whatever SaaS you have chosen like it or not.

Any thoughts?

My advice is to think laterally and ensure that the data captured, generated and processed by your business is available for integration across the whole business. Cloud and SaaS delivers the tools for anyone to do that and save on cost as a bonus.

 

[fisicx]

I can do all that without saas or using any cloud services. I have my own (necessary) server and a solid backup system. Laterally thinking isn't going to make MY arrangements any better.

Using cloud services may work for others.

 

[ffox]

I can do all that without saas or using any cloud services. I have my own (necessary) server and a solid backup system. Laterally thinking isn't going to make MY arrangements any better.

Sure you can. Up-thread I said -

Sure you could emulate some of this using client based apps like Open Office or Libre Office, but first you need a PC, then your need to install the software, then you need to keep it updated and you still have lots of data in silos that you can't integrate. There are crude search facilities, but they are unindexed and slow. In addition they only work at filename level.

Cloud services and SaaS have provided us with a better tool set.

You could do all I suggest using pen, paper and metal filing cabinets, but the cost of time and resource to do it pushes business towards being unable to compete on price. That rule applies as much to old fashioned IT as it does to manual office admin.

 

[fisicx]

Cloud services and SaaS have provided us with a better tool set.

I write code - it's what I do. The tools I use serve me better installed locally.

I also do technical authoring using a tool called Framemaker. There is no SAAS option.

One of my clients requires local encryption and I'm not even allowed to connect the machine to the internet.

Another client sells a building security system - their software is again isolated (not browser based) and they don't put the documents online because security.

I do work for a company that sends their documents to military clients on a CD or Memory Stick because that's what the clients require.

So yes while cloud and SAAS can provide a better service for some business there are huge number of businesses who don't want to because of the nature of their business.

 

[ffox]

So yes while cloud and SAAS can provide a better service for some business there are huge number of businesses who don't want to because of the nature of their business.

I'm sure that there are a huge number of businesses who provide services where they are restrained in one way or another from using cloud services. I had a client up to last year for whom I was required to be on their site in order to access their systems. Even then I was able to benefit from the cloud using tablet, smart phone and 4G, from their offices, to get to my resources. This also helped them as I was able to deliver the project well within the timeframe.
I was hired in the first place because I deliver on time and within budget and use of the cloud is a great way to ensure that happens.
Operations where restriction and constraint, such as this, are in place are not representative of the norm. They represent a minority of business and project activity in IT.

 

[Clinton]

Sorry, but why would anyone have a desire to impress you?

To convince me to take them on as clients, of course!

Yet basic cloud and SaaS is free.

So is Facebook.

Whenever you're not paying... you're the product being sold or you're the wally who is paying with data!

Incidentally, when the small business takes the upgrade plunge, say to Office 365, they also get 1 Tb of cloud storage per user, enterprise class (very secure) email, active directory security and, provide they take the right licence (E1 is only £60 per year) full MS SharePoint. The search facility on this alone is worth the money.

And I have clients who've fallen for all the "features" and paid for them, but then discovered they don't really need or use most of it. These are businesses with t/o in excess of £1m. I tell them that they've got more money than sense and joke that we should talk about my fees again

I can do all that without saas or using any cloud services. I have my own (necessary) server and a solid backup system. Laterally thinking isn't going to make MY arrangements any better.

Ah, but all of that must be awfully complicated! I mean, taking your own backups?! How retro is that? And how can it be "solid", it's not up in the clouds (where Jesus looks after everything and nothing ever goes wrong). But I must admit, I do the same. I have my own dedicated servers and manage my own IT (even though I don't have a GCSE in Computing!).

 

[ffox]

So is Facebook.

Whenever you're not paying... you're the product being sold or you're the wally who is paying with data!

No. Anyone can use SaaS office products. You have to sign up for a Microsoft or Google account, but you don't have to store the data in the cloud. Just use the products and store the data locally where it can't be used by anyone but you.

And I have clients who've fallen for all the "features" and paid for them, but then discovered they don't really need or use most of it.

You don't seem to get it. G Suite and Office 365 are priced in bands, but the bands have little to do with features as you define them. Up-Thread I said that an O365 E1 licence is around £60 per year. That buys all the features in Office 365 except client based office software. If you already have MS Office, Open Office or Libre Office, this is all you need. If you don't need Office software and can manage well on the browser versions of Word and Excel, E1 is still all you need.
Only if you need client based software would you need any upgrade, but you can mix your licences on any tenancy. So, user who need client based SW to do the job they do would have E3 licences, other who only need to read and edit documents would have E1 licences. A business can tailor the licence provision as they wish and as they can afford.

You would only need to go beyond E3 licencing if you need things like Document Rights Management services or cloud PBX.

You speak of cloud based accounting software and the inability to integrate data with other software packages. If you have cloud based software such as SharePoint, you can filter and categorise all of your data using search by date, client (addressee), price, product and any other criteria you want. If you wish to nominalise your transactions, you can do it without the need to employ any accounting software at all.

This means that the accounting product you use to finalise the accounts can be basic, single user, cheap and cheerful. Just feed in the pre-prepared data and produce the accounts, or as many business do, just feed the data to an accountant.

If you're not aware of this I have to say I'm not impressed.

 

[Clinton]

If you already have MS Office, Open Office or Libre Office, (E1) is all you need.

If I already have Office software then I have all I need. Why pay someone £60 per year? The world's gone nuts!

If you don't need Office software and can manage well on the browser versions of Word and Excel, E1 is still all you need.

No, I don't need any E numbers. If I don't have Office software on my new laptop, I download Libre Office and I'm ready to go (instead of crippling myself by using some browser based nonsense that requires me to have an internet connection for everything I do! Unnecessary additional dependencies, people!)

And if I need file management, I could use something like FileRun (one off fee).

You speak of cloud based accounting software and the inability to integrate data with other software packages.

There are no standards for accounting data. That means migrating anything other than basic General Ledger balances can be an absolute nightmare. Validated fields differ from provider to provider, descriptions vary, your accounts receivable and payable will almost certainly get screwed up... in fact, I've decided that many SaaS providers design their product with subtle obstacles to migrating away (so much so that a whole industry is developing around conversion utilities).

So if you don't like your SaaS provider, their servers keep going down, their customer service is crap, they want to increase prices, they are charging extortionate fees for additional features etc etc., you are trapped unless you're really, really motivated to go and you have the time and energy to start from scratch elsewhere. The barriers to moving get higher the longer you are with someone and the more of their features you use.

Buy a CD, load it on your computer or office network ... and avoid all that hassle!

On a different note, have you ever tried migrating from Sharepoint online to Alfresco or Confluence ...or anything else?

 

[Xtm_Mike]

If I already have Office software then I have all I need. Why pay someone £60 per year? The world's gone nuts!

Because it's worth it if you update regularly?

 

[ffox]

If I already have Office software then I have all I need. Why pay someone £60 per year? The world's gone nuts!

Do please read the post before you respond. Open Office and Libre office are very poor imitations of real office software. You can have browser based MS Office for free, and be entirely compatible with all of the large portion of the rest of the world who use MS Office. Only in collaboration with the FEW who insist on using free software will you experience problems. Even then problems are largely one way, with the burden falling on the smuck using free software to adjust.
Open Office and Libre Office do nothing for your ability to negate the need for most accounting software, most CRM software, most BoM software, most SoP software and most inventory software.

But, please feel free to keep on adding more and more free applications to your system, locking your data into a range of different DBs that will not talk to one another without the intervention of extensive 'geek' application. It's your world and your labour, or cash, that are spent in resolving the problems that you have created.

If you really want to reduce hassle - pay £60 per year, reduce the time you spend supporting your IT systems and have a few days off. - It will be well worth it.

 

[Clinton]

You can have browser based MS Office for free, and be entirely compatible with...

I don't have problems with compatibility now. My free, open source software opens all MS stuff.

...the rest of the world who use MS Office.

The rest of the world is learning quickly that there are free alternatives to MS Office / sharepoint / O365 or whatever other name MS come up with for their overpriced software. MS share of this market plunged 67% in 2016. This was led by consumers ... and businesses are now beginning to follow.

Open Office and Libre office are very poor imitations of real office software.

Huh?! Have you ever tried them? They have way more features than I've ever used! I even use Libre Office to design Confidential Information Memoranda when taking businesses to market. These PDFs come out very professional even if I say so, far better than similar documents I've seen created by business brokers and corporate finance firms. I also do all my fancy spreadsheets, charts and graphs in Opensource, analyse clients' annual accounts and calculate EBITDA, even create the occasional financial model (eg. merger model spreadsheets). And there's a lot of back and forth with clients none of whom seem to have any problem with files I send them.

..resolving the problems that you have created

What problems?

Because it's worth it if you update regularly?

Open source upgrades are free. And I can upgrade when I want, not when someone else decides to impose an upgrade on me and have me spend the rest of the week figuring out how to avoid all the new "features" (or even do my normal stuff).

 

[Xtm_Mike]

Open source upgrades are free. And I can upgrade when I want, not when someone else decides to impose an upgrade on me and have me spend the rest of the week figuring out how to avoid all the new "features" (or even do my normal stuff).

Spoken like a true tech guy from the early 90s who is set in his ways. You are absolutely right, SaaS is not for YOU.

Still, everything you have said is based on assumption and no real facts about subscription models or SaaS model.

 

[ffox]

Spoken like a true tech guy from the early 90s who is set in his ways. You are absolutely right, SaaS is not for YOU.

@Clinton -
The above quote is precisely accurate. In the 90s is where you are, and that is where you will remain. BTW, I have used Open Office and Libra Office, both for myself and for large customers, and while they have more features than the average user needs or uses (isn't that needless bloat?) they seriously lack compatibility with MS Office. Last time I looked Open Office boasted 220 million downloads,, MS Office current licences run onto the billions.

 

[Clinton]

I have used Open Office and Libra Office...

It's LibreOffice; you should try it sometime.

Listen, I get that you guys feel threatened but at least you admit that the SaaS/Cloud for simple office stuff is not necessarily for everybody. Last week I convinced a 20 person client business to go opensource and ditch their expensive, paid Microsoft solution.... because, well, like many small businesses they didn't need to be able to access their docs and spreadsheets from a million different locations using a million different devices. They did office stuff in the office and then they went home.

I know, weird!

But I can understand the convenience for some. I've used VDRs (Virtual Data Rooms) since long before MS decided on their latest SaaS/Cloud scam - VDRs are vital for document control in M&A. So file management, setting access control for various data i.e. who has access to what information, managing the issues with multiple users working on a file etc etc. are all great features. And it's all a bit like cloud (long before you guys discovered Cloud).

But it's just not for Joe the plumber. Or Jack the student. Or Jane the housewife. Not to mention millions of other small businesses. The smart ones are already moving to opensource. You may have missed the links I provided earlier, but I can provide more evidence of how fast this is growing and how fast people are ditching MS.

I'll admit that I can understand the convenience, for some larger businesses, to move to what MS is now selling them.

... they seriously lack compatibility with MS Office.

Er, you're sure you're not stuck in the early noughties?! That's exactly the kind of line we used to get then. Back in the day Microsoft was keeping its binary format a secret to prevent any other software being able to work on MS Office files. Yeah, lock the gate to screw more money out of your users! But once these "secrets" were reverse engineered by opensource developers, compatible improved in leaps and bound. Way back in 2014 SmallBizTrends said:

Second, you can open and edit all Microsoft Office documents with OpenOffice. There are no compatibility problems. In fact, the only problem you might encounter is a missing font from Microsoft. It’s one for which OpenOffice will provide a simple replacement. But apart from that, documents open and are edited smoothly.

Stop scaremongering and frightening people into using MS Office. I told you before, I have no compatibility problems despite extensive dealings with people who use MS. Please leave 2005 behind and get with the times.

 

[ffox]

@Clinton
Sigh - there's no so blind...

 

[tony84]

Im looking at some software at the minute, which is monthly but they proivde storage/hosting & support for it - so no issue.
There are also adds that I am looking at, one of which is £900 per user per annum (in addition to the main software) which for me means I would not sign up for the original software as it then starts to become very expensive. So I have enquired about someone building the bits I need for a one off fee. If it turns out that the cost of those are the same/cheaper than 1 or 2 years subscriptions, I will go down that route instead.

I am all for people earning money, I would rather pay for support if I need it - not have it forced upon me.

 

[quikshop]

Hybrid is the only solution that ticks all your availability, compatibility, governance boxes. Pure cloud services are a huge risk, if I told you how many hospitals rely on a cloud based EPR (Electronic Patient Record) system you'd tremble with fear walking into their A&E

Thick client desk top systems retain all the portability and productivity challenges that spawned SaaS.

Syncronisation between local and cloud stores of data with bi-directional updates with mirrored sets of functionality APIs consumed through a browser UI... invest more in the set-up to minimise risk and improve productivity, simples

 

[Gecko001]

I have been reading the Clinton/ffox exchanges with interest.

I downloaded LibreOffice at the weekend. I presently use MS Office 2007 which I bought for about £100-150 if I remember in 2006. I have found this largely satisfactory and have never had a problem with it. My work is mainly technical and report writing and bells and whistles are not required. I probably will not be changes to LibreOffice in total, but have found a few functions on it that are better than my 2007 MS Office. Automatic updating of graphs when more data is added is one such function. I use that in a few personal finance spreadsheets I have so I will use it for that. Thanks for the tip Clinton.

On a more general point, I think the fact that you Clinton I assume must deal mostly with the owner or directors of firms in the private sector means that you can suggest using free software without being treated with totally bemusement. You probably are in a fairly unique position though. Many firms deal with middle managers and not the boss and also deal with the public sector, where unless you deal with the Prime Minister, you will always be dealing with a middle manager.

There is an old saying that nobody got the sack for specifying IBM. That goes back to the 60's, 70's and 80's where large companies and the public sector were investing heavily in mainframe computers and IBM was the market leader and considered the Rolls Royce of the computer world then. If you are dealing with the head person in a large firm, they do not worry about their career going up in smoke because they took a risk and recommended a cheaper option from some small unknown firm who subsequently messed up. They are willing to take the risk if they see advantages and value for money.

For many businesses, getting work from the public sector is the Holly Grail. I am not in the IT sector, but I suspect that that sector is very much influenced by the need to comply with the public sector if they have ambitions to get work with the public sector. It could be whole new debate as to the value-for-money that the public sector regarding its software, but I cannot see middle managers taking risks with free software unless they want to be stacking shelves in Tesco. They will continue to specify only the big brands. Perhaps the new saying is "nobody ever got the sack for specifying MS Office".

Edit. When I say nobody, they probably would if they worked for Clinton though.

 

[Clinton]

LOL

Yes, that's one of the major obstacles to more companies adopting open source - IT people playing it safe and going with the "IBM option".

My clients tend to know my background in tech and that I've founded and run numerous tech businesses - hardware, software, online, SaaS. So when I ridicule some of the latest tech - like Cloud and SaaS for office applications - they don't dismiss me as a luddite.

But, as you say, my position in the business ecosystem is a factor. Yes, I tend to deal with owners of small businesses and, yes, they've hired me because they value my opinion... so I can get away with giving me opinion

But my position is a factor in clients humouring me and listening to my advice, it's not a factor that impacts on whether or not it's sensible to use open source. Most small businesses would be fine with open source products and possibly be even more productive than they are with their current solutions. That has no relationship to where I'm placed in the ecosystem.

And I completely accept that for some small businesses SaaS and Cloud is the way to go. Horses for courses and all that.