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Smoke and Heat detectors

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fisicx

fisicx

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Sep 12, 2006
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Aldershot
www.aerin.co.uk
We are changing the configuration of our property to convert a two-bet flat into a one-bed flat. Nothing complicated about the work - it's mainly just to walls and lintels. But the drawings we have received from the architects say the smoke detectors to be interconnected and wired on an independent circuit.

I've just looked at the regulations and there is nothing about the type of detector:

www.gov.uk

Smoke and Carbon Monoxide Alarm (Amendment) Regulations 2022: guidance for landlords and tenants

www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

Am I missing something?
 
I think they are just recommending mains powered alarms, it’s been twenty years since I sold such products, best to fire off an email requesting suggested makes/models and the reasoning and regulations behind their recommendation.
 
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fisicx said:
We are changing the configuration of our property to convert a two-bet flat into a one-bed flat. Nothing complicated about the work - it's mainly just to walls and lintels. But the drawings we have received from the architects say the smoke detectors to be interconnected and wired on an independent circuit.

I've just looked at the regulations and there is nothing about the type of detector:

www.gov.uk

Smoke and Carbon Monoxide Alarm (Amendment) Regulations 2022: guidance for landlords and tenants

www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

Am I missing something?
Click to expand...
The guidance you mention appears to be for landlords. Is this a requirement for all new builds, so the architect has put it in automatically?
 
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That’s what I think. They also state the bathroom extractor has to be ceiling mounted which is impractical. The one that has been installed is on an outside wall and passed the electrical inspection.

The building is 120 years old making some things a bit of a challenge.
 
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If it is part of work classed as building work, building regulations will apply to the whole project.

The regulations you link to above are a different thing.
 
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UKSBD said:
If it is part of work classed as building work, building regulations will apply to the whole project.

The regulations you link to above are a different thing.
Click to expand...
OK. But where are are these regulations?

Note that all we are doing is blocking up one doorway and opening out another. Nothing else is changing. The smoke, heat and CO detectors are the same ones as before. The ones that passed the last fire inspection.
 
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Well it will be interesting to see what your architect comes back with. I have an apartment in a block and obviously there's been a lot of talk on this topic since the cladding issues. My general understanding is each flat / apartment has to have its own system in place linked to its own power source with back up, the common areas are then on there own circuit etc.

What sort of set up have you in place now and are there more than one flat. and a bit of reading for you from a link I had on the topic.

www.architectsjournal.co.uk

The Regs: Do I need to get alarmed about smoke detection?

Geoff Wilkinson looks at the requirements in the Building Regulations for installing smoke detection in dwellings
www.architectsjournal.co.uk www.architectsjournal.co.uk
 
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This is where it gets very complicated. According to those regulations every house needs main powered fire and smoke warning systems. Most don’t. The smoke detectors the fire brigade gave us are only battery powered. Does this mean we don’t comply? Why does the government website say battery powered devices are ok in rented accommodation?

Got an appointment with a fire inspector later this week to try and get a sensible answer.
 
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If it's not classed as "Building Work" the regs don't apply and you can comply to the ones mentioned above (use battery powered if it says so).

The problem is, if anything you are doing is classed as "Building Work"

If you are not altering the existing you shouldn't really have to do anything, if moving just an inch the regs apply.

If the position of the door alters where the detector should be, the regs apply

Architect is probably just covering himself (being sensible)
 
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fisicx said:
This is where it gets very complicated. According to those regulations every house needs main powered fire and smoke warning systems. Most don’t. The smoke detectors the fire brigade gave us are only battery powered. Does this mean we don’t comply? Why does the government website say battery powered devices are ok in rented accommodation?

Got an appointment with a fire inspector later this week to try and get a sensible answer.
Click to expand...
Those regulations apply to

Building Regulations 2010 Approved Document B Volume 1, 2019 edition iii
The Building Regulations
The following is a high level summary of the Building Regulations relevant to most types of
building work. Where there is any doubt you should consult the full text of the regulations,
available at www.legislation.gov.uk.
Building work
Regulation 3 of the Building Regulations defines ‘building work’. Building work includes:
a. the erection or extension of a building
b. the provision or extension of a controlled service or fitting
c. the material alteration of a building or a controlled service or fitting.

I don't think your work is a material alteration of a building, so they don't apply.
 
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Just spoken to a fire inspector and it gets even more complicated. Because it’s an old house with old wooden floors there is an even higher level of protection required. We need to link all the detectors in the whole building.
 
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fisicx said:
Just spoken to a fire inspector and it gets even more complicated. Because it’s an old house with old wooden floors there is an even higher level of protection required. We need to link all the detectors in the whole building.
Click to expand...
That'll be interesting!
 
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Newchodge said:
That'll be interesting!
Click to expand...
We have had those in our home for >10yrs, they are linked via the lighting circuit so if one goes off they all go off, they are also maintained (as in battery backup but on mains), weren't that expensive BUT BEWARE, we were sold a set that we didnt realise were about to change design, the detector mounts on a backplate which is fixed to the ceiling. They changed the shape of the detector so when they needed replacing after a few years we had to buy an adaptor plate for each as well.

We could get separate smoke and rate of rise detectors (more useful for kitchens) that speak to each other
 
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An update.

Going to get a risk assessment done but he suggests a hybrid systems.

Central fire panel with linked smoke detectors and emergency lighting in the hallway (communal area). Then each of the 4 properties has a heat detector just inside the door linked to the central panel. This means if flat A burns the toast only their smoke detector goes off. But if flat B has a fire the heat detector triggers and the alarms warn everybody.

IanSuth said:
We have had those in our home for >10yrs, they are linked via the lighting circuit...
Click to expand...
Apparently they now need their own independent circuit.

But feeling a little more relaxed now. It's not going to be cheap but it's not going to be megabucks.

First job though is to get the assessment done.

WaveJumper said:
Suddenly that old two bed flat is looking more appealing.
Click to expand...
Maybe. But even if we don't do the conversion we still need to install a proper detection system.
 
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fisicx said:
Apparently they now need their own independent circuit.

But feeling a little more relaxed now. It's not going to be cheap but it's not going to be megabucks.

First job though is to get the assessment done.


Maybe. But even if we don't do the conversion we still need to install a proper detection system.
Click to expand...
Thinking back I do remember in the old office in about 2019 they had to redo the break glass panels and the alarm/detector wiring as the regs had changed (all cabling had to be specific heat proof cables and red i think and the break glass needed pictograms not words or something equally stupid)
 
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Hi,
Not sure if you have resolved the issue you have, however any rental property private or public sector should be working to fire detection systems minimum LD2 which is smoke detector on every floor (e.g hallway / landing inc. additional for townhouse) & circulation spaces (e.g lounge / diner) CO alarms are also now a requirement, ALL alarms need to be interconnected & powered by used circuit (e.g lighting circuit) Aico are the best option as they have RF connection so wireless meaning less cabling. Hope this is useful
 
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As I explained above, it’s a bit more complicated than that as the requirement for old buildings is different. And it’s the heat detectors that need to be interconnected not the smoke detectors.

3 of the 4 properties are leasehold not rental. And the 4th may be sold so there is no rental.

But thanks for your help. Once the FRA is complete we will hopefully be better informed on the exact requirements for the whole building.
 
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With the amount of rain we've had here since last night (and its still not stopped) you might want to add flood detectors to your list. Hope all goes well with the FRA fingers crossed for you
 
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DP Smith said:
Hi,
Not sure if you have resolved the issue you have, however any rental property private or public sector should be working to fire detection systems minimum LD2 which is smoke detector on every floor (e.g hallway / landing inc. additional for townhouse) & circulation spaces (e.g lounge / diner) CO alarms are also now a requirement, ALL alarms need to be interconnected & powered by used circuit (e.g lighting circuit) Aico are the best option as they have RF connection so wireless meaning less cabling. Hope this is useful
Click to expand...
Aico is what we have, we had to get masking plates when they had switched from rectangular to round detectors
 
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Welcome to my world, the mad world of building control.

Some regulations arent inforced, no need for every 1 in 5 lights to be low enrgy, but it's still a regulation, others that dont even exist are stringently forced. It's all very fluid and constantly changing.

The words off and f*ck are often used in the direction of BC, to their credit they do go away when told.
 
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Rather than me b*tch*ng about BC, 30 years of knowing them, 20 years of working with them daily, I could do a lot of b*tch*ng!

Assuming a completion cert is the goal, this is how you deal with them in these circumstances...........

Submit the plans to BC for full plans check, they will check the plans and spec, quoted timescale is 8 weeks. They will then either issue full plans approval, in which case you do as you're told, then you get a cert of completion after final inspection once the work is complete. If they don't issue full plans approval, they will either reject or add a condition to the plans, in either case they state in writing what the problem is, you address the problem by discussing it with them, have fun with that, then they issue full plans approval.

A quick add: Linking of smokes is done by RF
 
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