SEO & Bull$hit

C

Consistency

You know your business a lot more than I do and I openly admit I know nothing of it but surely all those terms above would be used for all the cleaning companies. If you had 20 cleaners all wanting to be in the top 5 what would you do?

If someone has a facebook account etc does that rise them up the rankings? And if so what if they all have a facebook account.
 
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If it was a necessity I would have to become better at it and do more than the rest.
This is in relational to other methods to generate customers of course ;)

Facebook account? you could get the page up the rankings, but facebook is a different kettle of fish.
 
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directmarketingadvice

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SEO isn't made up, it's a much needed part of Google's existence. With out it, they would have no platform that makes them the billions following through their bank accounts.

How so?

Without SEO, the sites that would rank "organically" would rank organically.

i.e. They wouldn't rank because they've tricked google into thinking other sites were giving them authority... instead, they'd rank because other sites were giving them authority.

Not selling them links. Not part of some link network, but genuinely and unilaterally endorsing the sites they were linking to.

How would that produce worse search engine results?

But at the moment, link building or more importantly building citations/votes

Building them dishonestly. Trying to trick google into thinking a link is a vote when it very rarely is one.

Now you can do this the Google way, and that's to create fantastic content, videos, tutorials, reviews etc.... stuff that will go viral and people will want to link too, but honestly, do you think everyone wants to spend the money and time that will be involved in creating such content

That very statement undermines your claim that google needs SEO. Yes, there are people earning links with quality content... but very few SEOs work that way.

Instead, it's deception.

It's sites that aren't good enough to be worth linking to, finding other (insincere) ways to get links.

I'm not here to moralise. The game is the game.

But let's not pretend that the relationship between Google and SEO is win-win. It's more "gamekeeper-poacher".

Steve
 
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How so?

Without SEO, the sites that would rank "organically" would rank organically.

i.e. They wouldn't rank because they've tricked google into thinking other sites were giving them authority... instead, they'd rank because other sites were giving them authority.

Not selling them links. Not part of some link network, but genuinely and unilaterally endorsing the sites they were linking to.

How would that produce worse search engine results?

Correct Steve, but your not taking my post in it's entirety.

Google needs the SERPS to place their ads around it and their other properties within it to make money.
Without decent SERPS then people will go else where.
Google wants SEO's to help build sites that are properly structured and formatted to help their algos decide which sites are better than the rest. It also helps massively on their computing power which saves them money, why else is there signals like site speed?
So technically SEO's are Google's army helping them to create sites that are designed for Google's way of working.
That's why people say SEO's should be used when building sites, even Google - http://support.google.com/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=35291
If you're thinking about hiring an SEO, the earlier the better. A great time to hire is when you're considering a site redesign, or planning to launch a new site. That way, you and your SEO can ensure that your site is designed to be search engine-friendly from the bottom up.
This is why SEO's are needed for Google existence, not to build link as you have stated, but to create sites that works to their advantage.

Building them dishonestly. Trying to trick google into thinking a link is a vote when it very rarely is one.
Again, you have selectively quoted me and not taken the rest of what I said into context.
You don't have to do it the way you suggested, as I've stated, you can do it the way Google wants you to do it, but there is only a few who can do it, resulting in the rest either doing nothing or to find another way.

That very statement undermines your claim that google needs SEO. Yes, there are people earning links with quality content... but very few SEOs work that way.

Instead, it's deception.

It's sites that aren't good enough to be worth linking to, finding other (insincere) ways to get links.

I'm not here to moralise. The game is the game.

But let's not pretend that the relationship between Google and SEO is win-win. It's more "gamekeeper-poacher".
Never said it was a win win, but I like your analogy :)

Unfortunately deception is a by product from it's main offsite ranking factor, and Google is in a constant battle, moving the goal posts to confuse everyone.

But lets not forget that Google has an obligation to it's shareholders, and what ever they do will be in their interest.
SEO, the "link building" part, was becoming more accessible to everyone. People were realising that they could pay a monthly fee and get good ROI. This effectively was pulling people away from their cash cow, Adwords.
By taking action on the blog networks recently e.g. BMR, ALN etc and pretty much wiping them out, they have just create panic and uncertainty in an industry full of wannabe SEO making a killing.
As there are sites dropping in ranks, SEO's are closing shop, and generally the cost is increasing, this, makes using their adwords system a much better option now.

Something that should be in your favour :)
 
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directmarketingadvice

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Correct Steve, but your not taking my post in it's entirety.

Google needs the SERPS to place their ads around it and their other properties within it to make money.

Without decent SERPS then people will go else where.

Yes - if there are decent SERPS elsewhere.

Google wants SEO's to help build sites that are properly structured

And, if that's all SEOs did, then I'm sure Google would find they add value to the search results.

Google also have an anti-spam team. To try to fight the work done by SEOs.

So, as I said, let's not pretend it's a win-win relationship.

It also helps massively on their computing power which saves them money, why else is there signals like site speed?

Because site speed affects the quality of visitor experience - and that's what google are looking to optimise.

So technically SEO's are Google's army helping them to create sites that are designed for Google's way of working.

If the SEOs were following google's guidelines. Which, for the most part, they probably aren't.

That's why people say SEO's should be used when building sites, even Google - http://support.google.com/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=35291

That's not what google are saying in that quote.

This is why SEO's are needed for Google existence, not to build link as you have stated, but to create sites that works to their advantage.

Sorry, but no. Google doesn't have a problem finding enough sites with an acceptable structure.

Unfortunately deception is a by product from it's main offsite ranking factor, and Google is in a constant battle, moving the goal posts to confuse everyone.

If google wanted to confuse the SEO industry, they could wreak havoc on a monthly basis with almost zero investment.

All they'd have to do is mess around with the dials.

The fact they're not doing that is, IMO, evidence that they're not trying to confuse people, they're just taking away value from links that aren't indicative of the quality of a site.

SEO, the "link building" part, was becoming more accessible to everyone. People were realising that they could pay a monthly fee and get good ROI. This effectively was pulling people away from their cash cow, Adwords.

I don't see it that way. There are 10 SEO results on the page. That's all.

No matter how high google raise the bar for SEO, there'll still be 10 results on the page... and only 10.

That means making SEO more difficult isn't going to increase the number of advertisers for adwords.

By taking action on the blog networks recently e.g. BMR, ALN etc and pretty much wiping them out, they have just create panic and uncertainty in an industry full of wannabe SEO making a killing.

For every SEO losing their top 10 rankings, there'll be SEOs moving up the rankings.

As I said, if google want uncertainty, they can make it happen any time they want.

IMO, this is just about crap links being ignored - because ignoring them improves the quality of the SERPS.

Steve
 
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Yes - if there are decent SERPS elsewhere.

Bings pretty good at the mo

And, if that's all SEOs did, then I'm sure Google would find they add value to the search results.
Some do

Google also have an anti-spam team. To try to fight the work done by SEOs.
They have a team to fight the work of some SEOs

Because site speed affects the quality of visitor experience - and that's what google are looking to optimise.
That's just bonus for them :D


That's not what google are saying in that quote.
What are they saying then?

Sorry, but no. Google doesn't have a problem finding enough sites with an acceptable structure.
It can be hard and puts strain on their system.

If google wanted to confuse the SEO industry, they could wreak havoc on a monthly basis with almost zero investment.

All they'd have to do is mess around with the dials.

The fact they're not doing that is, IMO, evidence that they're not trying to confuse people, they're just taking away value from links that aren't indicative of the quality of a site.
But they are :| - http://www.seroundtable.com/google-panda-34-14926.html

Past Panda Updates:

Panda 3.4 on March 23rd
Panda 3.3 on about February 26th
Panda 3.2 on about January 15th
Panda 3.1 on November 18th
Panda 2.5.3 on October 19/20th
Panda 2.5.2 on October 13th
Panda 2.5.1 on October 9th
Panda 2.5 on September 28th
Panda 2.4 in August
Panda 2.3 on around July 22nd.
Panda 2.2 on June 18th or so.
Panda 2.1 on May 9th or so.
Panda 2.0 on April 11th or so.
Panda 1.0 on February 24th

That's including the other 500+ changes they make - http://www.seomoz.org/google-algorithm-change

I don't see it that way. There are 10 SEO results on the page. That's all.

No matter how high google raise the bar for SEO, there'll still be 10 results on the page... and only 10.

That means making SEO more difficult isn't going to increase the number of advertisers for adwords.
It's not always 10, it has been know to be less probably through the testing to see if it makes a difference - http://www.hobo-web.co.uk/3-natural-organic-listings-is-this-the-future-of-seo-for-google/

IMO, this is just about crap links being ignored - because ignoring them improves the quality of the SERPS.
Defiantly, totally agree :)
 
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Probably they are doing the spamming work which hits by Google Panda update. Most SEO firms are working in these way and their website are getting penalized.
I am also doing SEO for last 4 years I just know only one think work for your visitor Google will automatically give value to your website. Most SEO firms doesn't work on website structure and navigation menu which I think is the part of on page SEO which also play it's role in SERP.
They always tell their client that we will do this much of articles submission, directory submission, social bookmarking and you will get the result but nowadays SEO doesn''t work in that way.
 
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directmarketingadvice

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And, if that's all SEOs did, then I'm sure Google would find they add value to the search results.

Some do

You're right.

Some SEOs create content that's valuable enough to be worth linking to.

But, as you said, "Do you think everyone wants to spend the money and time that will be involved in creating such content?".

Because site speed affects the quality of visitor experience - and that's what google are looking to optimise.

That's just bonus for them :D

It it were "just a bonus", then why is site speed important for Adwords quality score?

What are they saying then?

They're saying, "If you're thinking about hiring an SEO". Not, as you said, "SEO's should be used when building sites".

Sorry, but no. Google doesn't have a problem finding enough sites with an acceptable structure.

It can be hard and puts strain on their system.

In what way? In the sense that it takes longer for the spiders to find the page? Or in the sense that the algo finds it harder to work out what the page is about?

I can't see how either of these would make that much difference to the amount of data processing google would have to do.

If google wanted to confuse the SEO industry, they could wreak havoc on a monthly basis with almost zero investment.

All they'd have to do is mess around with the dials.

The fact they're not doing that is, IMO, evidence that they're not trying to confuse people, they're just taking away value from links that aren't indicative of the quality of a site.


But they are :| - http://www.seroundtable.com/google-panda-34-14926.html

Past Panda Updates:

Panda 3.4 on March 23rd
Panda 3.3 on about February 26th
Panda 3.2 on about January 15th
Panda 3.1 on November 18th
Panda 2.5.3 on October 19/20th
Panda 2.5.2 on October 13th
Panda 2.5.1 on October 9th
Panda 2.5 on September 28th
Panda 2.4 in August
Panda 2.3 on around July 22nd.
Panda 2.2 on June 18th or so.
Panda 2.1 on May 9th or so.
Panda 2.0 on April 11th or so.
Panda 1.0 on February 24th

To me, that's rolling out an idea - an idea that's consistent with what google has been about for many years.

What I was talking about was ****ing with people. One day something helps with SEO, the next day it hurts. A few weeks later, it helps again.

Just random stuff to scare the pants of the SEO industry and make their lives a misery.

Some SEOs would be getting phone call after phone call from angry clients demanding to know what happened to their rankings... but there'd be no announcements from Google.

So those SEOs would spend ages trying to work out what the changes were. But, because the changes made no sense logically (they were just random stuff to jumble up the rankings), they'd be harder to figure out.

And, by the time the SEO had it figured out and made some changes, everything would be reversed. (And some other random changes would be made.)

At the same time, sites that were dependent on SEO for their revenue - and to cover their costs - would find SEO rankings can't be depended upon, thanks to the capricious behaviour of Google.

What do they do? Many will switch to Adwords.

That's what google could do... if they really wanted to undermine SEO and get more users for adwords.

But they don't. It would be irresponsible and mean.

They do, however, fight spam by devaluing links that clearly have nothing to do with one site unilaterally voting for another.

Steve
 
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TODonnell

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I think Google has just devalued:

1. Sites which have too many adverts above the fold.
2. Cheesy backlinks from networks, article directories, social bookmark sites etc.

If 99% of your links are crappy, your site goes down. Google's just devalued certain types of links which up to now, worked well. So crank-it-out SEO's are wailing.

Meanwhile, the golden goal of SEO remains: how to achieve natural-looking success, artificially?
 
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I would say he either has found a better full time job or
something I would think maybe nearer the truth is that since the latest few Google Algo changes there are certain tools that SEO's will use that no longer work. I wont name names but there are a few casualties.
 
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Meanwhile, the golden goal of SEO remains: how to achieve natural-looking success, artificially?

THE golden goal of SEO is surely how to achieve natural success, naturally and quickly!

Therefore it consists of getting the on page stuff right then marketing it in the right places. Not one person going around linking to links in various formations using unrelated forums etc.
 
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HFE Signs

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    The SEO company has been honest, thats worth a lot, many would have taken your money and said nothing.. SEO is impossible to guarantee so its easy for them to talk their way out of it, but thumbs up to them for being so honest, I would continue to work with a company like that and discuss alternative methods..
     
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    HFE Signs

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    That is fundamentally flawed.

    Its a mathematical formula.

    Earl

    Yes of course, we all know that.. however my point is you can’t guarantee it as you can’t predict what or how much your competition is doing, this makes it impossible to guarantee results for a given budget. Do you not agree with that??
     
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    terryuk

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    Yes of course, we all know that.. however my point is you can’t guarantee it as you can’t predict what or how much your competition is doing, this makes it impossible to guarantee results for a given budget. Do you not agree with that??

    I don't care about what the competition are doing, I do care about how much work I am doing. And not all SEO campaigns will given a budget.... but a %
     
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    UKSBD

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    Yes of course, we all know that.. however my point is you can’t guarantee it as you can’t predict what or how much your competition is doing, this makes it impossible to guarantee results for a given budget. Do you not agree with that??

    I'm prepared to give you a guarantee

    I guarantee that if you pay me £500 a month for 6 months I will rank you top 3 for a keyword of your choice or I won't charge you another penny.
     
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    C

    Consistency

    I'm prepared to give you a guarantee

    I guarantee that if you pay me £500 a month for 6 months I will rank you top 3 for a keyword of your choice or I won't charge you another penny.

    So what if you have 4 companies doing exactly the same thing in the same area? Such as florists who all do the same flowers, delivery etc.

    Would you turn one away?

    I £3,000 for six months worth of being in the top 3? £6,000 per year! I personally would stick to organic word of mouth.
     
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    webgeek

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    I think it's great that the company had the moxies to admit defeat and throw in the towel. There's a lot of other comment spamming, profile spamming, and general backlink spamming companies who can't compete any more [because they haven't evolved].

    I'm sure there's a lot of SEO people at the moment who are scratching their heads, wondering what to do about having dropped 20, 30, 40 or even 50 positions recently for keywords they owned for ages.

    I know of several who have recently cried on my shoulder with stories of how the techniques they are using just don't get results any more.

    Winning SEO companies (the ones who are continuing to get top results) most likely are following a similar formula across the board - Content Marketing.

    Personally, the tactics I use have had to change in order to be successful, sure. The costs have gone up as well!

    Start looking at the cost of generating original content (not spun rewritten garbage) on a scale of 4 articles+ per keyword per client per (week or month depending on budget) and suddenly you need an entire editorial team in place. Someone has to come up with topics, assign them to writers, review the work, get it published on authority sites.

    Content marketing is expensive! But, content marketing works like a charm!

    SEO is not inherently flawed, but rather the OP chose a dinosaur. They didn't evolve, so they perish.

    SEO is also not cheap. We often charge about 30 GBP per keyword per month. So, if you want to move 50 keywords up the rankings, that'll be 1500 per month.

    Someone said word of mouth would be so much better. Bah!

    You know what happens at the end of a year when you own top 10 on 40 of those 50 keywords? You should be getting thousands of visitors generating sufficient sales for a net positive ROI. Stop working on those 40, slide in 40 more. At the end of year 2, you now own 80 keywords, have doubled your traffic and revenue, and kept your fixed cost the same, thus greatly improving your ROI.

    If you're SEO team have not generated 12 month KPI targets which include traffic, enquiries, conversions, sales and net ROI, then they're either being lazy or are working off of hope and black art rather than science.

    A decent SEO team can plot your progress, deliver 80% or 90% of results into top 10 (or top 8/5/3), and create a value proposition that makes possible a net positive ROI, generating you a self-funding revenue stream.

    Before you sign on the dotted line... Ask them how they plan on getting you up the rankings. Let them know that you understand what link building is. Make them quantify the approach, set KPI's in writing and report monthly on progress.

    The better the team you're dealing with, the better the guarantee. Some will settle for not being paid until after they deliver results. Some will agree to keep working on it until they get the results, expecting to be paid monthly (and will agree to refund a % if they don't hit their targets). There are many good approaches to deliverables...

    Above all, don't give up because you had one bad experience. Instead, spend a bit more time on the due diligence with the next one!
     
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    cjd

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    Content marketing is expensive! But, content marketing works like a charm!

    SEO is not inherently flawed, but rather the OP chose a dinosaur. They didn't evolve, so they perish.

    SEO is also not cheap. We often charge about 30 GBP per keyword per month. So, if you want to move 50 keywords up the rankings, that'll be 1500 per month.

    Someone said word of mouth would be so much better. Bah!

    Content marketing was exactly what this outfit was supposed to be doing. The deal was that a journalist would write unique and useful articles and get them placed in relevant places. And they weren't cheap - more costly than your examples. They still say they couldn't make it work.

    Who knows what is actually behind this, I suspect that they were also doing content spinning for older clients and, as google's rules changed, the wheels fell off for a number of them making it difficult for them to continue as a company.

    Although content marketing is a relatively honest form of SEO, it's still handing your reputation to strangers who have no feel for your company and because those articles might actually get read by humans not just robots, it does actually matter what they say.

    Word of mouth, is by far the best way in all circumstances - if you've got a good business with a good reputation, you can sleep better at night.

    Get a good reputation, get your on site content and SEO working, get your own words used by others organically and you're in the best place you can be.
     
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    Start looking at the cost of generating original content (not spun rewritten garbage) on a scale of 4 articles+ per keyword per client per (week or month depending on budget) and suddenly you need an entire editorial team in place. Someone has to come up with topics, assign them to writers, review the work, get it published on authority sites.

    SEO is also not cheap. We often charge about 30 GBP per keyword per month. So, if you want to move 50 keywords up the rankings, that'll be 1500 per month.
    So for less than £8 per article including profit margin you produce 'quality' content? :eek: I'd love to see an example...

    Make them quantify the approach, set KPI's in writing and report monthly on progress.
    Yep, spend time on reports that nobody reads or understands... Or perhaps measure your SEO efforts by counting the number of links you produce...

    The only real results a client is interested in is their increased profits. That's all you have to show.

    I suspect the OP's SEO was operating at the cheap end of the market and it just became uneconomic, as was stated in the email. They either had to raise prices or get out. They also probably got sick of being treated as the lowest of the low while earning peanuts. :mad:

    Personally I think a decent SEO can earn more with less hassle by running their own sites, so you're almost certainly going to get the learners or those who can't make their own sites looking for the 'easy money' by selling their 'expertise' to businesses who know no better. The number of WSOs touting loadsadosh for no work is testament to this.
     
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    Although content marketing is a relatively honest form of SEO, it's still handing your reputation to strangers who have no feel for your company and because those articles might actually get read by humans not just robots, it does actually matter what they say.
    My experience is that most businessmen are too close to their company. An outsider will look at the company and website from a customer point of view...
    Word of mouth, is by far the best way in all circumstances - if you've got a good business with a good reputation, you can sleep better at night.
    Agree, though relying on one aspect is foolish. It is all too easy for that good reputation to be tarnished by one employee having a bad day.
     
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    webgeek

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    So for less than £8 per article including profit margin you produce 'quality' content? :eek: I'd love to see an example...
    QUOTE]

    Some clients get 1 article per month, others get 4 or so. So yes, we're charging between 7.50 and 30 quid per article.

    There's the cost of the article, the editorial time (which has been reduced thanks to time spent in writer selection and grooming), having/finding a site to publish the content on, etc.

    Gone are the days with 95% gross profit for SEO work. We run on low margins and high success rates, turning this into a commodity, not some mysterious black art.

    Although I advocate customers use SEO to gain new customers, 99% of ours come from word of mouth from other satisfied customers. If your business can run on the income of a handful of clients, then perhaps WOM beats SEO. If you need a steady stream of new clients to keep you afloat, then SEO beats WOM hands down.

    Sorry, this isn't a thread to promote my services. Don't PM me asking for prices or looking for examples, testimonials, and so on. This thread was only to point out that there are a lot of similar legit content marketing firms who CAN compete, CAN offer reasonable prices, and CAN sustain growth despite Panda, Farmer, Fresh and any other update big G might throw at us.
     
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