SEO & Bull$hit

[cjd]

My experience is that most businessmen are too close to their company. An outsider will look at the company and website from a customer point of view...

I think only actual customers can do that. SEO companies are looking at their own business first, then their clients. A stranger to the company and their industry writing an article once or twice a month does not give any special insights and could just as easily screw up your reputation as enhance it.

Agree, though relying on one aspect is foolish. It is all too easy for that good reputation to be tarnished by one employee having a bad day.

I suppose that's why I said this in the next sentence:

"Get a good reputation, get your on site content and SEO working, get your own words used by others organically and you're in the best place you can be."

As far as I'm concerned, there's a place for SEO, but it's in good website design not third parties artificially squirting un-natural content onto other people's websites (and I think Google agrees with me.)

 

[Consistency]

So for less than £8 per article including profit margin you produce 'quality' content? I'd love to see an example...
QUOTE]

Some clients get 1 article per month, others get 4 or so. So yes, we're charging between 7.50 and 30 quid per article.

There's the cost of the article, the editorial time (which has been reduced thanks to time spent in writer selection and grooming), having/finding a site to publish the content on, etc.

Gone are the days with 95% gross profit for SEO work. We run on low margins and high success rates, turning this into a commodity, not some mysterious black art.

Although I advocate customers use SEO to gain new customers, 99% of ours come from word of mouth from other satisfied customers. If your business can run on the income of a handful of clients, then perhaps WOM beats SEO. If you need a steady stream of new clients to keep you afloat, then SEO beats WOM hands down.

Sorry, this isn't a thread to promote my services. Don't PM me asking for prices or looking for examples, testimonials, and so on. This thread was only to point out that there are a lot of similar legit content marketing firms who CAN compete, CAN offer reasonable prices, and CAN sustain growth despite Panda, Farmer, Fresh and any other update big G might throw at us.

Don't worry, I wont!

 

[bdw]

As far as I'm concerned, there's a place for SEO, but it's in good website design not third parties artificially squirting un-natural content onto other people's websites (and I think Google agrees with me.)

I think I do too.

A lot of nonsense is spouted about SEO (some in this thread) but one thing has always puzzled me. Why do these SEO gurus who guarantee you all sorts of amazing results want to do this for you? Why don't they just for make themselves rich without having the hassle of clients? I mean building successful MFA websites provides an ongoing, easy income source. :|

I run a couple of small, MFA websites that bring me in some beer money each month. It took me some time to create and set these up but now I basically just keep an eye on them and take the loot. I have a reasonable grasp of SEO principles having been close to it for more than ten years now but I am far from being infallible, having so far failed with another website.

My point is that if I was a "guru" who could guarantee top three results for any website then I would most certainly not be doing it for other people. I would have done it for myself and able to live in a villa somewhere hot where I could sit back and collect the filthy lucre each month.

 

[Chunkford]

I suppose its easier and there's more money to be made in selling an idea than actually getting your hands dirty and running a business sucessfully

 

I think I do too.

A lot of nonsense is spouted about SEO (some in this thread) but one thing has always puzzled me. Why do these SEO gurus who guarantee you all sorts of amazing results want to do this for you? Why don't they just for make themselves rich without having the hassle of clients? I mean building successful MFA websites provides an ongoing, easy income source. :|

I think you will find that many SEO's do run there own business's.

But it can be time consuming ,hence why I tend to partner with various business's in order that I have time to do the things that earn the money.

Its a waste of my time wrapping parcels e.t.c.

Earl

 

[bdw]

Its a waste of my time wrapping parcels e.t.c.

You won't find me packing parcels either.

I actually mentioned MFA websites Earl (Made for Adsense), where no parcel packing is required. All you have to do is pick up the money.

.

 

[Chunkford]

But don't you wrap elastic bands round it?


Sorry, I'll grab my coat....

 

[Garden Leave]

After many years of doing our own SEO, we eventually gave in and paid an "expert". This company came highly recommended from people we trust. We received this from them yesterday.

What do you make of it?

My guess is they are a one club golfer and their only club is a 'public' private blog network which has gone out of business. This isn't an SEO company, it's a company which uses third party SEO tools - there is a difference.

 

[Mystro]

I think I do too.

A lot of nonsense is spouted about SEO (some in this thread) but one thing has always puzzled me. Why do these SEO gurus who guarantee you all sorts of amazing results want to do this for you? Why don't they just for make themselves rich without having the hassle of clients? I mean building successful MFA websites provides an ongoing, easy income source. :|

I run a couple of small, MFA websites that bring me in some beer money each month. It took me some time to create and set these up but now I basically just keep an eye on them and take the loot. I have a reasonable grasp of SEO principles having been close to it for more than ten years now but I am far from being infallible, having so far failed with another website.

My point is that if I was a "guru" who could guarantee top three results for any website then I would most certainly not be doing it for other people. I would have done it for myself and able to live in a villa somewhere hot where I could sit back and collect the filthy lucre each month.

Well if you dont know the basic principles of fixing a car engine then no point making these sites and setting up business for yourself

SEO is about enhancing and making that site as attractable and visable to as many potential customers as possible

Some of the things SEO sell wont do that but many have the savvy to do what it takes to get an audience.

Random Spamming wont work, Spamming on the right places may help but a well targeted article or information in the right place works wonder and thats the difference of a good SEO and these company's that think its easy

No doubt 99% of the people on this forum can write but i bet that only 10% are capable of writing an engaging article, i bet most the men and some women played football at school, dont mean to say you can earn a living from it

Theres some that can and some that cant and the problem we have we don't check out those that can its a mind set we have all gotten into and a lazy one at that, do your home work, ask the right questions and you should be fine

 

[bdw]

No doubt 99% of the people on this forum can write but i bet that only 10% are capable of writing an engaging article, i bet most the men and some women played football at school, dont mean to say you can earn a living from it

I don't have any qualifications as a writer but I earn part of my living from stuff that I have written and put online.

If you are good enough to guarantee high rankings through your SEO abilities then your skill set should include the ability to write good material or you should at least be able to commission good material. If you put this material (DIY or commissioned) into a website that you can push to the top of the SERPs and you can make money from carrying adverts on that website then why would you not do it? It's got to be a lot easier than dealing with clients.

Do you think most SEO people are in the business because they like to see others succeed?

(Anyway, I am really only playing devil's advocate here.)

.

 

[eventdomain]

But ranking well doesn't even mean a site will make money even with a large search volume.

Large search volume sites eg: excess of 100k of searches - have a good product to sell to advertisers.

Dont forget majority of websites are just small businesses, 10/15 pages max, perhaps a blog, simple contact page and maybe 100 links to its name - these are not high traffic magnets. They will always struggle.

I believe SEO will be hit harder than ever, gone are the days when quality ad space was free, links were free and goodwill to fellow man means nothing now.

Its about links for cash... advert writers to improve results and viral methods.

 

[Mystro]

I don't have any qualifications as a writer but I earn part of my living from stuff that I have written and put online.

That's my point, you can make money from something your good at, People tend to think that SEO is about link acquisition, I know where to get links ill add my bit and make a profit, but it's until something goes wrong and they are unable to fix it because they dont have a god damn clue.. and that was the problem

I believe SEO will be hit harder than ever, gone are the days when quality ad space was free, links were free and goodwill to fellow man means nothing now.

I don't think so, i think SEO will evolve into a better place, because the people that did understand this sector will carry on promoting sites the right way and continue to bring in revenue for the customers

The snakes will slither away and find something else to leach onto

 

[kulture]

Its about links for cash... advert writers to improve results and viral methods.

No I think that google has proved that it is nothing to do do with links for cash nor advert writers.

Clearly what Google wants is to make money. They do this by providing a service. The better their search results are then the more people use them. The more people used them the more they can charge for adverts.

Google know (by repeated testing etc) that their search results can only carry a proportion of paid adverts and some must be organic results. They also know that it is better that ALL results are what the customer want to see. Thus they are constantly adjusting their adword processing (by their quality keyword performance filtering) and the organic results. They really do not care (except perhaps get a bit pleased) if an SEO company gets squashed in the process.

At the end of the day the true judge of the content of a web site is the customer. With the massive change in the Google privacy settings, and the fact that they are collecting all the data they have into a single pot, sooner or latter they will use this data in the algorithm.

For instance. Google knows what search terms you use, they know what results their search brings up, they know what site(s) you visited as a result and which one you purchased from (and how much you spent). All this by combining the data they hold for you together with the data they hold for the site using analytics. Now multiply this by all people searching and all sites with their analytics. Google has the capability of knowing what you consider the best sites for xyz. And knowing the most popular sites for xyz.

Further since they tend to have analytics on most sites they can see what inbound links actually work, are actually travelled by real people. This more than anything will determine the value of a link in future.

So what hope has an SEO link building campaign unless it is done by a person who knows the business of the website, who can find good relevant sites to link from, and who can get good content onto those sites.

I think the days of link building campaigns are over.

 

[RadiusBPO]

Nothing has really changed other than a few networks have been blown up. You want proof?? Look at the links of a few top sites.

Google have successfully with the help of "top seo companies" and SEOMOZ put the fear into everyone. Now everyone is scared of links. Again take a look at the top ranking sites, where are these "top seo companies" who are recommended by SEOMOZ getting their links?? Ah looks like spammy links from Digital Point still.

 

[kulture]

There is nothing wrong with good links. The problem lies in the definition of what is a good link and also over relying on this one strategy.

 

[RadiusBPO]

There is nothing wrong with good links. The problem lies in the definition of what is a good link and also over relying on this one strategy.

Good links, those from guest blogging on real blogs are out of reach of anyone with a small budget.

 

[kulture]

Good links, those from guest blogging on real blogs are out of reach of anyone with a small budget.

Not true. Instead of paying someone to write rubbish about your site, you write good stuff yourself and get it published yourself. Be the guest blogger.

 

[RadiusBPO]

Not true. Instead of paying someone to write rubbish about your site, you write good stuff yourself and get it published yourself. Be the guest blogger.

it is very true. most business owners don't have time to write 1-2 articles per day to give them the velocity to catch their competitors. And what about all of the sites which want £20-200 per post?

And even if they did a guest post with nothing else isn't very strong, they need to be backed up with other links. It's not viable, even if they could find enough sites to guest blog on.

 

[Mystro]

Totally agree

Look at the top sites in your own niche, they still have these crappy links, and they still are acquiring them, some on purpose some are scrapped which they have no influence over, but the one thing i have noticed especially in my niche as that's where i looked most, and that diversity of the links.

If one source gets blown out from Google they all have others, these includes active blogs and being active on social media, directorys and all the other stuff. not all links are the same and just by writing anything you'll be amazed how much stuff gets linked to.

Ofc good SEO's know this and that's why their sites are still there and wondering what all the fuss is about,

you may dominate for a short while by doing one thing but if that 1 thing gets pulled then your stuffed, Oh wait i suppose what how this thread started the one trick pony's done a runner

 

[RevaxMedia]

After many years of doing our own SEO, we eventually gave in and paid an "expert". This company came highly recommended from people we trust. We received this from them yesterday.

What do you make of it?

Well look at it this way, would Google penalize any website for good practice? If an SEO agency is having difficulties keeping up with "good practice" then the foundations of the services they offer must not be good practice. Simple.

 

[UKSBD]

For instance. Google knows what search terms you use, they know what results their search brings up, they know what site(s) you visited as a result and which one you purchased from (and how much you spent). All this by combining the data they hold for you together with the data they hold for the site using analytics. Now multiply this by all people searching and all sites with their analytics. Google has the capability of knowing what you consider the best sites for xyz. And knowing the most popular sites for xyz.

Further since they tend to have analytics on most sites they can see what inbound links actually work, are actually travelled by real people. This more than anything will determine the value of a link in future.

I have said for some time that the traffic generated by the Google Serps will have a bearing on the results.

Google also have a system called the Delegated authority evaluation system - http://www.google.com/patents/US20050131722 it has been around for years but if combined with data from Google+, google analytics and data they get from user behaviour in the SERPs it must be the way forward for search.

If Google can use delegated authority better and weaken the effect of general links, bad link building will be devalued more.

 

[cjd]

Well look at it this way, would Google penalize any website for good practice? If an SEO agency is having difficulties keeping up with "good practice" then the foundations of the services they offer must not be good practice. Simple.

Or, the good practice was too expensive - which is what they say. (Proper article writing on good content sites.)

 

[RadiusBPO]

Or, the good practice was too expensive - which is what they say. (Proper article writing on good content sites.)

What is a good content site? Very very few strong sites are nothing more than fake blogs farming PR to sell links on so someone can call themselves a professional blogger or journalist. Or they just cover whatever is needed so they can submit content to Google News and therefore sell sponsored posts.

Almost every webmaster for the council or a uni has a nice sideline selling links, these are .gov or .edu links, wonderfully strong and effective but still paid non editoral links like you will see on most sites considered strong.

Smoke and mirrors.

 

[RedEvo]

What is a good content site? Very very few strong sites are nothing more than fake blogs farming PR to sell links on so someone can call themselves a professional blogger or journalist. Or they just cover whatever is needed so they can submit content to Google News and therefore sell sponsored posts.

Almost every webmaster for the council or a uni has a nice sideline selling links, these are .gov or .edu links, wonderfully strong and effective but still paid non editoral links like you will see on most sites considered strong.

Smoke and mirrors.

Bang on. This may be a by-product of the whole self publishing phenomenon that is blogging etc. If you investigate the link profiles of some big brands you'll find content based marketing efforts on some truly awful blogs. These stay under the Google radar (for the time being) as they are not part of a blog network, but are still awful sites.

This nonsense is matched only by people with awful websites who expect to secure 'quality' links to boost them up the rankings.

d

d

 

[bdw]

Almost every webmaster for the council or a uni has a nice sideline selling links, these are .gov or .edu links,

What do you base this statement on?

.

 

[RadiusBPO]

What do you base this statement on?

.

experience.

 

[UKSBD]

One of the big insurance companies was created by the National Students Union who had a department who would collaberate with student union websites and student bloggers for SEO purposes.

 

[eventdomain]

I suppose its easier and there's more money to be made in selling an idea than actually getting your hands dirty and running a business sucessfully

Why? you'd still end up running a SEO business with whatever many clients, so its not going to be any easier. You gotta do work for the clients have you not.

Too many after that quick, super result to dominate the SERPS - aint going to happen. Unless you own a website with at least 50k of pages, you wont make a dent in the SERPS war.

 

Why? you'd still end up running a SEO business with whatever many clients, so its not going to be any easier. You gotta do work for the clients have you not.

Too many after that quick, super result to dominate the SERPS - aint going to happen. Unless you own a website with at least 50k of pages, you wont make a dent in the SERPS war.

well once one has achieved the required position there is generaly just a watching brief involved.


Why 50K pages.?

How about 1.

Earl

 

[Chunkford]

Why? you'd still end up running a SEO business with whatever many clients, so its not going to be any easier. You gotta do work for the clients have you not.

My reply was at bdw post i.e. its probably easier to sell "SERPS dominmatrix - dominate your niche in 5 easy steps" ebook than actually setup and run the businesses.

 

[RedEvo]

My reply was at bdw post i.e. its probably easier to sell "SERPS dominmatrix - dominate your niche in 5 easy steps" ebook than actually setup and run the businesses.

I agree with this. I think there are a lot of people who write stuff along the lines of "Here's how to get great links...blah blah blah" and they never actually have to deal with clients and real world businesses.

d

 

[open sesame]

O well more for the real SEO's.

 

[Consistency]

I really do not have a clue what the difference is between a real SEO and another SEO. I am starting to find when I do searches that sometimes I go on to the third page as I wonder if the rest have manipulated their way up there or paid tweakers to get there.

SEO is like businesses calling themselves AAA fixings ltd.

 

I really do not have a clue what the difference is between a real SEO and another SEO.

results.

Earl

 

[bdw]

My reply was at bdw post i.e. its probably easier to sell "SERPS dominmatrix - dominate your niche in 5 easy steps" ebook than actually setup and run the businesses.

:| Don't know where you got that, I didn't say it, did I? :|

.

 

[Chunkford]

:| Don't know where you got that, I didn't say it, did I? :|

LOL, you said,

My point is that if I was a "guru" who could guarantee top three results for any website then I would most certainly not be doing it for other people. I would have done it for myself and able to live in a villa somewhere hot where I could sit back and collect the filthy lucre each month.

and I said

I suppose its easier and there's more money to be made in selling an idea than actually getting your hands dirty and running a business sucessfully

meaning

its probably easier to sell "SERPS dominmatrix - dominate your niche in 5 easy steps" ebook than actually setup and run the businesses.

 

[terryuk]

My point is that if I was a "guru" who could guarantee top three results for any website then I would most certainly not be doing it for other people. I would have done it for myself and able to live in a villa somewhere hot where I could sit back and collect the filthy lucre each month.

http://www.bizreport.com/2012/04/the-seo-market-in-the.html

SEO in UK worth over three-quarters of a billion dollars in 2011... maybe why

Although I do understand what you mean

 

[bdw]

LOL, you said

I see what you mean now but I was actually commenting on the fact that SEOs often produce copy and articles and seek links, etc. to bring traffic to their client's websites.

I wasn't proposing that they sell any product for themselves. Since they say that they are capable of SEO at this level I was just speculating why they don't build useful informational websites where they could carry lucrative advertising then just sit back and collect the checks?

But then perhaps the answer is in the original post. Perhaps most of them are not quite so honest as the company mentioned there, choosing instead to gamble on their ability to produce results knowing that they are likely to fail?

.

 

[Annoying Donkey]

I think only actual customers can do that. SEO companies are looking at their own business first, then their clients. A stranger to the company and their industry writing an article once or twice a month does not give any special insights and could just as easily screw up your reputation as enhance it.

Ironic that the first site found on a search for 'voipfone review' has a review which starts 'They dont care about the customer just like to take your cash'...

 

[cjd]

Ironic that the first site found on a search for 'voipfone review' has a review which starts 'They dont care about the customer just like to take your cash'...

That'll be the site where there are 16 reviews giving us an average score of 4.2 out of 5. Where 81.3% would recommend us and where the only crap review was 2 years ago, contains a single sentence and was obviously posted by a crank?

http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews182513.html

In the interest of balance, this is the last one posted there:

Brilliant Service
Visit www.voipfone.co.uk
VOIPFONE are possibly the best UK provider I have come across (I've Tried Many. I used my own hardware (cisco 7940) but got it working with very little effort. It does help if you understand how the technology works but the online setup of your account etc is very straight forward. I only had one slight issue which the CSR helped to guide me in the right direction.

Been running with this now for several months, and very happy. It's a pity they don't offer a reseller service as I would definitely set up a business to sell their service.