Rising fuel costs

[Scubadog]

Sorry, went to eat and shop.

"Cost benefit analysis

There is a significant impact on the LV network reinforcement spend in a high EV uptake scenario.

The CBA conducted in this report suggests that high EV uptake could lead to LV reinforcement spend increasing by a factor of four, relative to the current LV reinforcement spend of c. £1-2m p.a. across LPN.

There is a marginal net impact on the primary network reinforcement spend in a high EV uptake scenario

The analysis presented indicates that over time a high uptake of EVs could accelerate certain reinforcement investments, by increasing the peak load at primary substations. It is estimated that the NPV of the change in Totex resulting from the high uptake scenario presented in this report is £11,974k across LPN."

Bolding my own

to complete your quote

"The effects on power quality from EVs and HPs could be pronounced where there is clustering of the load types. The identified significant contribution to low order harmonics could lead to high neutral currents, which would subsequently impact and influence LV network planning."

Im lost.....again, what exactly is the point?
You said they were worried i have seen no evidence of this, only a 8 year old report into how UKPN will manage the transition.

You seem to be suggesting there should be no investment in future energy?

 

[fisicx]

You are talking nonsense about there being practical or cost effective way to charge evs for everyone. You are sadly mistaken

It's the way the car park is configured. You would have to dig up the whole thing to install chargers.

There will be ways to make it work I'm sure but I don't think it's going to happen quite as easily as you suggest. There isn't one single charging point in any of the town centre residential areas. It's something the council has highlighted but the landlords aren't prepared to invest any money in doing so.

 

[NickGrogan]

Come on Nick... tell us all, what happens when they get plugged in at peak times?

Already answered, twice.

Going back to your block of flats with 80 amp fuses, how many of the flats can you use the full 80 amps at the same time? All of them?

What is the typical real power available to the whole building, if we assume 50 flats for easy maths?

 

[NickGrogan]

You seem to be suggesting there should be no investment in future energy?

I said from the beginning that there would need to be a significant investment in future energy to make it work. That's the post you've spent all the time disagreeing with.

Are you now saying that there does need to be a significant investment?

 

[Scubadog]

I presume you're referring to the rules that stop chargers from charging at certain hours to "protect" the grid?

Home

All the fleet management and leadership insight for cars and vans, car and van reviews and fleet profiles, plus tools like the company car tax calculator, fuel cost calculator and electric car and van data.

www.smarttransport.org.uk

This is strange as you've said that there is no shortage of capacity in the network to power all these chargers.

However, all chargers can be overridden to charge during peak hours.

Given that we had massive queues at petrol stations when there was no shortage of fuel, I'm pretty sure that plenty of people will be hitting the override "button" all the time.

Nope....still not correct. Close, but you have again confused a number of things.

 

[Scubadog]

Already answered, twice.

Going back to your block of flats with 80 amp fuses, how many of the flats can you use the full 80 amps at the same time? All of them?

What is the typical real power available to the whole building, if we assume 50 flats for easy maths?

Yes...all of them. That's how they are designed. If you new the basics you would know that

 

[Scubadog]

I said from the beginning that there would need to be a significant investment in future energy to make it work. That's the post you've spent all the time disagreeing with.

Are you now saying that there does need to be a significant investment?

No, you wasn't that forward thinking at the start.
You claimed there ate not enough chargers (false), you claimed there ate no plans for enough chargers (false) you claimed there is not enough energy (false) and claimed that "most substations are at maximum demand" (also false).

You now seem to be saying, well, yea if the dno's implement their 10 year plans as they have been doing since 2014, at the same time as implementing their usual capital investments, then maybe things will be OK.


It's a bit of a difference between the two.


It appears the slight shift in your stance coincides with learning a thing or two about a subject you appear to now not alot about.

 

[Scubadog]

It's the way the car park is configured. You would have to dig up the whole thing to install chargers.

There will be ways to make it work I'm sure but I don't think it's going to happen quite as easily as you suggest. There isn't one single charging point in any of the town centre residential areas. It's something the council has highlighted but the landlords aren't prepared to invest any money in doing so.

You don't need to dig up car parks. There are solutions to this.

Landlords and commercial property owners are about to be incetivised to exactly this.

 

[Scubadog]

Already answered, twice.

Going back to your block of flats with 80 amp fuses, how many of the flats can you use the full 80 amps at the same time? All of them?

What is the typical real power available to the whole building, if we assume 50 flats for easy maths?

I would expect a 1600kva tx in this instance. It's also a dtandard size so nice and easy.....just like your math

 

[MOIC]

Great reading, I reckon they’ll be a technical knockout soon.

My money’s on Scuby!

Disclaimer: I have a vested interest in this space.

 

[SportsExpert]

In our country, the rise of fuel is still ongoing and it really affects every business in the region. Unfortunately, owners will pass the price hike to the consumers and I hope that it is not expensive and the people will eventually adjust on the situation.

 

[IanSuth]

Again.....if they were providing resilience to an industrial estate, this is not a cost associated to EVs.

It is a cost they would have considered along with risk of fines when energy is not available.

You can thank tory governments for placing these services in the private sector, where we as consumers do not have to directly fund the usual day to day upgrades....such as this

I never said it was to do with EV's, i actually mentioned it was due to resilience for the data centres, it was just a local real world cost scenario i know off.

But if you want to talk about refusal of connection I don't know of one on the charger side BUT i do know a local landowner who was quoted a stupid figure )well into 6 figures) for cabling & connection if he built a solar farm on a field. He sat down with a mate of mine who at the time worked for SEC and had his work laptop with the network map on it, between them they found a more local substation with spare capacity that could take the feed which meant the build became economic (it is the huge set right by m4 j11). SEC had not offered the closest interconnect as they were trying to save it for future expansion of Green Park (the business estate also by m4 j11)

So i do know that there are definitely capacity issue sin the network, the fact you have yet to hit them is because we are still quite early in the process of conversion to EV's.

As you are the expert, please look at the area I used to live in and tell me how you would provision the area to allow 1 charger per 11 or 12 homes and roughly what you reckon the cost would be per house https://goo.gl/maps/JsG8rQwReRxzXfhA8 if it helps the houses are 10'6" wide and you will find 2 garage areas in the street, 1 at each end (the garages are privately rented mainly to non residents)

 

[UKSBD]

When batteries are small enough that battery swapping is as quick as refuelling it will solve a lot of problems

It already only takes 3 minutes on some models, if all manufacturers worked together on a standardised system it would be great, they could just replace petrol pumps with battery replacers.

Take old battery out, replace with new one and recharge old one ready for someone else to use later that day.

 

[UKSBD]

As you are the expert, please look at the area I used to live in and tell me how you would provision the area to allow 1 charger per 11 or 12 homes and roughly what you reckon the cost would be per house https://goo.gl/maps/JsG8rQwReRxzXfhA8 if it helps the houses are 10'6" wide and you will find 2 garage areas in the street, 1 at each end (the garages are privately rented mainly to non residents)

By locating the charging/changing points in a similar location to where the petrol station is and people just drive there and swap the battery for a charged one.

It takes 3 minutes for some models already, another 10 years who knows how long it will take and easy it will be?

An even better system, but requires a change in mindset - drive your low charged vehicle somewhere and swap it for a fully charged one.

 

[The Byre]

Can someone explain to me in simple terms what I should replace my large comfortable and quiet estate car that does at least 800 miles between tank stops, has lasted me ten years and will probably last another ten years, with one of those milk floats that hardly do 200 miles between long and difficult recharging sessions, are expensive for what they are, are hardly going to last 20 years and are environmentally a disaster?

And for those of you that still think that global warming is a thing, look up Milankovitch Cycles.

Milankovitch cycles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The real problems are not cars but pollution and the insidious effects of pollution. And the time to do something about it was in the 70s. when we who started the green movement first sounded the alarms. All these milk floats do is replace one sort of pollution with far more dangerous types of pollution and a whole new set of dreadful problems.

The underlying problem is not energy but too many people. But nobody wants to face that problem.

 

[NickGrogan]

I would expect a 1600kva tx in this instance. It's also a dtandard size so nice and easy.....just like your math

Then you'd be wrong. An 80 amp fuse doesn't mean that the building is designed to supply each flat with 80 amps. The average demand for a domestic property is non electric heating is around 2kw. As the number of properties on the same connection increases, the variations in demand reduce.

Using SP Energy Networks / SSEN ADMD calc shows that with 50 customers on a feeder you need 1.93kW per customer or a total of 96.50kW

Northern Powergrid suggests 128kW with a figure of 2.4kW per site.

Far less than the 1600 you're suggesting.

Adding 10 EV chargers for the 50 flats increases the demand per household to 2.46kW for a total of 123kW using SP/SSEN

Adding 50 EV chargers, one per property increases this to 4.58 per household or 229 for 50

Adding 50 heat pumps and the 50 ev chargers increases the demand to 7.17 per house and 358 for the 50. This also add a cold start issue which means you need to design for 11.1 per house or 556,50 for the 50

You can download the calc here

ADMD calculator - LCT Ready Housing Developments

SP Energy Networks own and operate the electricity transmission and distribution network in the south of Scotland and the distribution network in Cheshire, Merseyside and North Wales.

www.spenergynetworks.co.uk

If works for 20 to 100 customers on the same feeder and has EV and heatpump options.

 

[NickGrogan]

For more info on calculating loads and diversity

Estimation of actual maximum kVA demand - Electrical Installation Guide

All individual loads are not necessarily operating at full rated nominal power nor necessarily at the same time. Factors ku and ks allow the determination of the maximum power and apparent-power demands actually required to dimension the installation.

www.electrical-installation.org

Lots of info on installation of EV chargers and the effects on demand

EV charging - electrical installation design - Electrical Installation Guide

Electric vehicle charging is a new load for low voltage electrical installations that can present some challenges.

www.electrical-installation.org

All information from Schnieder Electric, one of the biggest companies in this sector, globally.

 

[NickGrogan]

No, you wasn't that forward thinking at the start.
You claimed there ate not enough chargers (false), you claimed there ate no plans for enough chargers (false) you claimed there is not enough energy (false) and claimed that "most substations are at maximum demand" (also false).

You now seem to be saying, well, yea if the dno's implement their 10 year plans as they have been doing since 2014, at the same time as implementing their usual capital investments, then maybe things will be OK.


It's a bit of a difference between the two.


It appears the slight shift in your stance coincides with learning a thing or two about a subject you appear to now not alot about.

Your own estimate is that it will take 1.5 million man days to install 3.6M chargers. How many people are there qualified to install chargers and how long with it take them?

What is the global demand for chargers over the next 10 years? What is the current production level of chargers? If Boris ordered 3.6M chargers tomorrow, when would they arrive?

We've established that upgrading the network is going to cost £20 - £50B according to government projections. If we assume for the sake of argument that those figures are correct and the actual cost won't be higher, then clearly the network is not ready today.

Otherwise what is that £50B being spent on?

 

[clyde123]

On street charging. Car park spaces will be fitted with charging points. Car parks are already being fitted with them. Councils are already starting to install more generic onstreet charging. Its really not much different than on street lighting. In terms of demand in high rise blocks, each of those homes will be fitted with a 60amp fuse, allowing for electric cookers, showers and heating. Overnight that isn't needed, and this is when EVs charge. None of that should be difficult to imagine

Sounds like an immense amount of work to be done.

Don't get me wrong - I can be open minded on this. But right now I see a situation where Europe faces a shortage of energy just at the time when - by government decision - extraction from the North Sea has pretty well been discarded. My point is governments make rotten decisions all the time based on their short term electoral ambitions. I am not gullible enough to believe they will "do the right thing" at all.

Back to the point under discussion.
Are you saying that every flat will have power cabled back down to the car park from its own meter/fusebox installation?
Firstly that would mean each space would have to be allocated to a specific flat. What about flats with 2 or more vehicles? What about the large number of flats with old folk who will never have a vehicle?
Seems to me this would require many more spaces than are presently built for each block of flats.

Yes it's a bit of whataboutery but these are the important things that people need to know.

You don't need to dig up car parks. There are solutions to this.

Landlords and commercial property owners are about to be incetivised to exactly this.

How would you cable in charging points without digging up the car park?

I'm very interested to learn what these incentives will be. Are you saying central government are going to fund this? How would that work?
And then presumably we'll all have to pay more taxes to cover this.

 

[WaveJumper]

Interestingly this has come up at a location where I own a second property, each apartment has its own designated parking space, couple of people last year with electric vehicles were charging via power from the bin stores. The board have had to put a stop to this as they are using the "joint owners" supply & basically charging their cars for free. We undertook a project and looked at supplying cabling etc to enable charging points to be installed the costs were horrendous and the other 48 owners were not going to agree to pay for this.

On top of this several owners are now throwing out their gas boilers and going electric which I hear is causing a few issues on supply. Nothing is ever straight forward but as an architect once told me you can build anything you like ....... if your wallet is big enough

 

[IanSuth]

By locating the charging/changing points in a similar location to where the petrol station is and people just drive there and swap the battery for a charged one.

It takes 3 minutes for some models already, another 10 years who knows how long it will take and easy it will be?

An even better system, but requires a change in mindset - drive your low charged vehicle somewhere and swap it for a fully charged one.

That will work if people dont own their batteries - i mean would you like to swap a new battery you own for one of dubious history. The issue with batteries is they degrade over time so the range form a new battery is not the same as an older one. If you just pay a battery rental that is irrelevant (i have seen in i think thailand they have a bunch of electric scooters with 2 swappable power banks behind the seat which sounds brilliant) but currently people are shelling out thousands for EV's with a bigger battery to get the range so a battery swap charging infrastructure needs to also incorporate some kind of leasing/rental scheme

it works for radiators/alternators/motorcycle seats where you get cheaper refurbed replacements if you hand in your old dead one but they are lower value items and don't degrade in the same way

 

[IanSuth]

Interestingly this has come up at a location where I own a second property, each apartment has its own designated parking space, couple of people last year with electric vehicles were charging via power from the bin stores. The board have had to put a stop to this as they are using the "joint owners" supply & basically charging their cars for free. We undertook a project and looked at supplying cabling etc to enable charging points to be installed the costs were horrendous and the other 48 owners were not going to agree to pay for this.

On top of this several owners are now throwing out their gas boilers and going electric which I hear is causing a few issues on supply. Nothing is ever straight forward but as an architect once told me you can build anything you like ....... if your wallet is big enough

Also starting to see stories like this already
https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/1558041/car-owner-fury-neighbour-ev-parking-space and one about a councillor getting a fine as he left his car to charge at a lidl whilst he walked home with shopping, by the time he returned the car was only about 60% charged but he had gone over the 90min max stay in the car park.

These are not insurmountable issues BUT someone needs to actually plan a strategy nationally with consistency or parking restrictions allied to charging times for public chargers

 

[NickGrogan]

Interestingly this has come up at a location where I own a second property, each apartment has its own designated parking space, couple of people last year with electric vehicles were charging via power from the bin stores. The board have had to put a stop to this as they are using the "joint owners" supply & basically charging their cars for free. We undertook a project and looked at supplying cabling etc to enable charging points to be installed the costs were horrendous and the other 48 owners were not going to agree to pay for this.

On top of this several owners are now throwing out their gas boilers and going electric which I hear is causing a few issues on supply. Nothing is ever straight forward but as an architect once told me you can build anything you like ....... if your wallet is big enough

Adding EV chargers for everyone will double the expected load - see my post above about 50 flats, your numbers will be almost the same.

Are they getting heat pumps?

For this kind of building, switching to one big boiler that supplies everyone is more efficient, but you have to find somewhere for it to go and a big enough gas/power supply. Much easier at the design stage.

 

[NickGrogan]

Interesting article here

Materials shortage highlighted as main barrier to EV infrastructure rollout | New Civil Engineer

While EV production has ramped up in 2021, charge post manufacturers have disclosed that a global shortage of computer chips has slowed down their

www.newcivilengineer.com

Problems

• Lack of EV experts and skills
• Electricity grid challenges
• Economic market forces
• Lithium-ion batteries
• On-street chargers

 

[NickGrogan]

Volkswagon agrees its a problem too

UK electric vehicle charging network is lagging behind, says Volkswagen

‘Charging anxiety’ may prevent the government from meeting its 2030 target for mass adoption of zero-emission cars

www.theguardian.com

 

[MBE2017]

Can someone explain to me in simple terms what I should replace my large comfortable and quiet estate car that does at least 800 miles between tank stops, has lasted me ten years and will probably last another ten years, with one of those milk floats that hardly do 200 miles between long and difficult recharging sessions, are expensive for what they are, are hardly going to last 20 years and are environmentally a disaster?

FWIW, do the true green thing, keep it well maintained and use it to the end of its life.

My 4x4, is 17 years old, on its third clutch, second gearbox, eight set of suspension bushes, eight set of tyres, and looks and drives like new, bar the odd pin sized ding etc. I will be keeping it until parts are no longer available, but the engine is as good as the day it was new, according to mileage and compression tests. I reckon it has at least 500,000 miles left in it minimum.

 

[Mitch3473]

I filled my works van up last week, Nissan Primastar...£102.52, I've never ever put that cost in. Told all my distance clients we are only doing 1 delivery/collection per week as opposed to the usual 2 and they're happy with that. We've not had lights on in the unit for 6 weeks and all filters in the dryers are to be checked and cleaned before each use. And finally, only 2 cups of water in the filter coffee machine................

 

[FXOpentrader]

Rising fuel costs I think can lead to output companies, it is possible to increase inflation because the company will sell products to adjust their spending.

 

[Scubadog]

Interestingly this has come up at a location where I own a second property, each apartment has its own designated parking space, couple of people last year with electric vehicles were charging via power from the bin stores. The board have had to put a stop to this as they are using the "joint owners" supply & basically charging their cars for free. We undertook a project and looked at supplying cabling etc to enable charging points to be installed the costs were horrendous and the other 48 owners were not going to agree to pay for this.

On top of this several owners are now throwing out their gas boilers and going electric which I hear is causing a few issues on supply. Nothing is ever straight forward but as an architect once told me you can build anything you like ....... if your wallet is big enough

Clearly didn't bother asking anyone that k own...otherwise the joint owners could have been charging for electricity and making a profit, whilst the ev owners could have been benefitting from still cheaper energy than buying it onthe road and far heaper than diesel or petrol.

 

[Scubadog]

Sounds like an immense amount of work to be done.

Don't get me wrong - I can be open minded on this. But right now I see a situation where Europe faces a shortage of energy just at the time when - by government decision - extraction from the North Sea has pretty well been discarded. My point is governments make rotten decisions all the time based on their short term electoral ambitions. I am not gullible enough to believe they will "do the right thing" at all.

Back to the point under discussion.
Are you saying that every flat will have power cabled back down to the car park from its own meter/fusebox installation?
Firstly that would mean each space would have to be allocated to a specific flat. What about flats with 2 or more vehicles? What about the large number of flats with old folk who will never have a vehicle?
Seems to me this would require many more spaces than are presently built for each block of flats.

Yes it's a bit of whataboutery but these are the important things that people need to know.




How would you cable in charging points without digging up the car park?

I'm very interested to learn what these incentives will be. Are you saying central government are going to fund this? How would that work?
And then presumably we'll all have to pay more taxes to cover this.

No, the power wouldn't come from the individual supplies. It comes from the sub main.

And digging anything up is old hat technology. It's all done with moles these days.

 

[Scubadog]

Your own estimate is that it will take 1.5 million man days to install 3.6M chargers. How many people are there qualified to install chargers and how long with it take them?

What is the global demand for chargers over the next 10 years? What is the current production level of chargers? If Boris ordered 3.6M chargers tomorrow, when would they arrive?

We've established that upgrading the network is going to cost £20 - £50B according to government projections. If we assume for the sake of argument that those figures are correct and the actual cost won't be higher, then clearly the network is not ready today.

Otherwise what is that £50B being spent on?

Again...this just highlights how little you know.

You can charge an ev from zero to full in 8 hours on bog standard commando sockets.

Struggling to see why your concerns are even anywhere near valid.

Out of interest....what's your solution to vehicles? More of the same, or is it the fabled Hydeogen?

 

[Scubadog]

Then you'd be wrong. An 80 amp fuse doesn't mean that the building is designed to supply each flat with 80 amps. The average demand for a domestic property is non electric heating is around 2kw. As the number of properties on the same connection increases, the variations in demand reduce.

Using SP Energy Networks / SSEN ADMD calc shows that with 50 customers on a feeder you need 1.93kW per customer or a total of 96.50kW

Northern Powergrid suggests 128kW with a figure of 2.4kW per site.

Far less than the 1600 you're suggesting.

Adding 10 EV chargers for the 50 flats increases the demand per household to 2.46kW for a total of 123kW using SP/SSEN

Adding 50 EV chargers, one per property increases this to 4.58 per household or 229 for 50

Adding 50 heat pumps and the 50 ev chargers increases the demand to 7.17 per house and 358 for the 50. This also add a cold start issue which means you need to design for 11.1 per house or 556,50 for the 50

You can download the calc here

ADMD calculator - LCT Ready Housing Developments

SP Energy Networks own and operate the electricity transmission and distribution network in the south of Scotland and the distribution network in Cheshire, Merseyside and North Wales.

www.spenergynetworks.co.uk

If works for 20 to 100 customers on the same feeder and has EV and heatpump options.

Incorrect.
If we followed your math, transformers would be blowing up every dinner time and Christmas day.

Do people really pay you for energy services? I suppose you are only a broker so probably haven't spent decades studying and actually working in the industry. Meanwhile, my entire family are in the game (including network design for one of the dnos you have mentioned). Needless to say....you haven't been right yet! Not even close.

You are now confusing maximum demand and average demand.....which is scary for someone who sells energy!


FYI the average demand per house is only 500watts

 

[Scubadog]

Interesting article here

Materials shortage highlighted as main barrier to EV infrastructure rollout | New Civil Engineer

While EV production has ramped up in 2021, charge post manufacturers have disclosed that a global shortage of computer chips has slowed down their

www.newcivilengineer.com

Problems

• Lack of EV experts and skills
• Electricity grid challenges
• Economic market forces
• Lithium-ion batteries
• On-street chargers

Do the same list for diesel

Problems
It's running out
It's supplied by Russia
It's polluting
Can only fuel up and petrol stations
Fuel shortages anyone?
Predicted £2 per litre anyone?


So come on....what's your solution?
I mean....you do have one, right?

 

[Scubadog]

Volkswagon agrees its a problem too

UK electric vehicle charging network is lagging behind, says Volkswagen

‘Charging anxiety’ may prevent the government from meeting its 2030 target for mass adoption of zero-emission cars

www.theguardian.com

Which is odd....since most people fit a charger whe they buy an ev.

And you speak of electricity like its hard to get to places. 9 mean, its not like we have it on every street, in every house pretty much everywhere in the country.

But no...your dull imagination struggles.

 

[Scubadog]

By locating the charging/changing points in a similar location to where the petrol station is and people just drive there and swap the battery for a charged one.

It takes 3 minutes for some models already, another 10 years who knows how long it will take and easy it will be?

An even better system, but requires a change in mindset - drive your low charged vehicle somewhere and swap it for a fully charged one.

It's just not needed.
Most people do less than 20 miles a day.
Most cats spend 15 hours a day parked either on a drive or in a parking space.

Quite simply, they charge over ight, and mist offer a 300 mile range.

Most people will never need a fast charge unless they are taking special trips.

 

[Scubadog]

I never said it was to do with EV's, i actually mentioned it was due to resilience for the data centres, it was just a local real world cost scenario i know off.

But if you want to talk about refusal of connection I don't know of one on the charger side BUT i do know a local landowner who was quoted a stupid figure )well into 6 figures) for cabling & connection if he built a solar farm on a field. He sat down with a mate of mine who at the time worked for SEC and had his work laptop with the network map on it, between them they found a more local substation with spare capacity that could take the feed which meant the build became economic (it is the huge set right by m4 j11). SEC had not offered the closest interconnect as they were trying to save it for future expansion of Green Park (the business estate also by m4 j11)

So i do know that there are definitely capacity issue sin the network, the fact you have yet to hit them is because we are still quite early in the process of conversion to EV's.

As you are the expert, please look at the area I used to live in and tell me how you would provision the area to allow 1 charger per 11 or 12 homes and roughly what you reckon the cost would be per house https://goo.gl/maps/JsG8rQwReRxzXfhA8 if it helps the houses are 10'6" wide and you will find 2 garage areas in the street, 1 at each end (the garages are privately rented mainly to non residents)

Connection of a solar farm is mostly determined not by capacity but by fault levels at the Point of common connection amd harmonic distortion.

 

[Scubadog]

That will work if people dont own their batteries - i mean would you like to swap a new battery you own for one of dubious history. The issue with batteries is they degrade over time so the range form a new battery is not the same as an older one. If you just pay a battery rental that is irrelevant (i have seen in i think thailand they have a bunch of electric scooters with 2 swappable power banks behind the seat which sounds brilliant) but currently people are shelling out thousands for EV's with a bigger battery to get the range so a battery swap charging infrastructure needs to also incorporate some kind of leasing/rental scheme

it works for radiators/alternators/motorcycle seats where you get cheaper refurbed replacements if you hand in your old dead one but they are lower value items and don't degrade in the same way

Batteries now last 15 years without any noticeable Degradation.

The great thing about ev batteries is they are easily repairable. And what's more a 15 year old car at the end of its life will now have a lot of residual value that can be recycled .

 

[Scubadog]

I never said it was to do with EV's, i actually mentioned it was due to resilience for the data centres, it was just a local real world cost scenario i know off.

But if you want to talk about refusal of connection I don't know of one on the charger side BUT i do know a local landowner who was quoted a stupid figure )well into 6 figures) for cabling & connection if he built a solar farm on a field. He sat down with a mate of mine who at the time worked for SEC and had his work laptop with the network map on it, between them they found a more local substation with spare capacity that could take the feed which meant the build became economic (it is the huge set right by m4 j11). SEC had not offered the closest interconnect as they were trying to save it for future expansion of Green Park (the business estate also by m4 j11)

So i do know that there are definitely capacity issue sin the network, the fact you have yet to hit them is because we are still quite early in the process of conversion to EV's.

As you are the expert, please look at the area I used to live in and tell me how you would provision the area to allow 1 charger per 11 or 12 homes and roughly what you reckon the cost would be per house https://goo.gl/maps/JsG8rQwReRxzXfhA8 if it helps the houses are 10'6" wide and you will find 2 garage areas in the street, 1 at each end (the garages are privately rented mainly to non residents)

Easy


Simply install pedalstall chargers in each space (they even have them that shrink away to be flush with the floor when ot in use). Power can be fed from the existing submain, existing street fur inured power or even a new cable laid specifically.

It's a misunderstanding to believe the electricity actually needs to come from the homeowners house.

Estimate £750 per property if the entire street was done (this is a real life quote based on a similar situation)


It's already happening in the more forward thinking councils.

In fact, I know companies that would install their kit for free...they would literally be fighting over that. Again...I see the tenders pretty much daily for similar situations.

 

[Scubadog]

Sounds like an immense amount of work to be done.

Don't get me wrong - I can be open minded on this. But right now I see a situation where Europe faces a shortage of energy just at the time when - by government decision - extraction from the North Sea has pretty well been discarded. My point is governments make rotten decisions all the time based on their short term electoral ambitions. I am not gullible enough to believe they will "do the right thing" at all.

Back to the point under discussion.
Are you saying that every flat will have power cabled back down to the car park from its own meter/fusebox installation?
Firstly that would mean each space would have to be allocated to a specific flat. What about flats with 2 or more vehicles? What about the large number of flats with old folk who will never have a vehicle?
Seems to me this would require many more spaces than are presently built for each block of flats.

Yes it's a bit of whataboutery but these are the important things that people need to know.




How would you cable in charging points without digging up the car park?

I'm very interested to learn what these incentives will be. Are you saying central government are going to fund this? How would that work?
And then presumably we'll all have to pay more taxes to cover this.

Yes....the rules on funding change 1st April.

Ev chargers have been funded for around the last 3 years already.

Odd you didn't know about it.

 

[Scubadog]

Can someone explain to me in simple terms what I should replace my large comfortable and quiet estate car that does at least 800 miles between tank stops, has lasted me ten years and will probably last another ten years, with one of those milk floats that hardly do 200 miles between long and difficult recharging sessions, are expensive for what they are, are hardly going to last 20 years and are environmentally a disaster?

And for those of you that still think that global warming is a thing, look up Milankovitch Cycles.

Milankovitch cycles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The real problems are not cars but pollution and the insidious effects of pollution. And the time to do something about it was in the 70s. when we who started the green movement first sounded the alarms. All these milk floats do is replace one sort of pollution with far more dangerous types of pollution and a whole new set of dreadful problems.

The underlying problem is not energy but too many people. But nobody wants to face that problem.

You don't and won't.
You are an old dinosaur and will frankly not be around to see the new era.


For those....a bit younger, they enjoy cheap driving, instant torque, clean energy and the joys of waking up every morning g to "a full tank" sufficient for more like 300 miles which is more than 10 times the average distance people drive any day.


So enjoy your Dino juice....no ones making you change. But the world is changing.....fast.