Rising fuel costs

Scubadog

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As I thought, there are no EVs at sensible prices that have a range of 300 miles
That's subjective (sensible prices)....and if we are honest, you are letting your bias cloud your judgement. Especially if you ahvent even tried one!
But hey, dont worry, no one is forcing you to change anything. The world will continue to change, and you can stick with what you have for the rest of your life.
 
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WaveJumper

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    About 25 actually which amble enough for me to drive to the office, charge and drive home at the end of the day. Then plenty umph to pull the horse trailer at weekends and when needed.
    I was also looking at the SVR as am a bit of a petrol head and love the rumble of the engine.

    Someone else suggested the same. Problem I’m up against is the wife really wants me to get an F type V8, but I know if I did she’d wrap it round a post in no time!
    @Ozzy Lighting up this thread:

    I have a wife like that my first try with the Porsche went as follows, I had picked one out was sorting out the insurance etc and was in a meeting at work and informed my wife was on the phone and needs to speak to me urgently, fearing the worst I obviously take the call.

    You can't buy that Porsche she says ........errrr why not, I am down at the showroom with the salesman and the pushchair will not fit in and apparently the salesman nearly collapsed when she asked if we could have a roof rack. well that was the end of the Porsche dream.

    Time moves on I got one in the end she won't drive it (what a shame) and sticks to the 4x4 think she like intimidating other drivers .......... she certainly intimidated me over the years. ???
     
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    MOIC

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    It was probably time about 6 pages back to take this offline in a private conversation here, especially as most of the thread has been between just two.
    Don’t agree with taking this offline!

    I’m sure that all readers of this thread, will have an interest (or will have in the near future) on the merits of purchasing an EV. This thread may highlight some of the issues involved.

    My take on it is that there’s no going back, EV’s are here to stay and only a question of time before buying one is the norm. Countries who have had EV’s for a number of years, including the Scandinavian countries don’t have issues with charging, they adapt to what’s there. In China, which has the fastest growing sales of EV’s, they don’t have issues with charging, and that includes cities that have converted to EV only buses and taxis.

    Things will change dramatically, worldwide in the next 5 years, there’s huge investment by all the car manufacturers in the EV market and that will include charging options.

    Close the thread? That’s going backwards!
     
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    How does public transport work in the countryside? 95% of all journeys? Yea...sure.

    That's a lot of empty and half full busses.

    In rease takes on 3rd vehicles? What does that solve? How many cars do you think people drive at once?

    Buses come in all shapes and sizes, they don't all have to be double-decker beasts.

    You may have noticed that I suggested a dramatic increase in public transport, so that means more businesses in the countryside as well as elsewhere.

    Why tax 3rd cars more? A large part of the emissions from a vehicle is during manufacture, especially EVs.

    Fewer cars, fewer emissions

    Fewer cars, less traffic, faster journeys.

    Of course, if I was selling cars or products for cars, I might be against this.
     
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    Scubadog

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    Buses come in all shapes and sizes, they don't all have to be double-decker beasts.

    You may have noticed that I suggested a dramatic increase in public transport, so that means more businesses in the countryside as well as elsewhere.

    Why tax 3rd cars more? A large part of the emissions from a vehicle is during manufacture, especially EVs.

    Fewer cars, fewer emissions

    Fewer cars, less traffic, faster journeys.

    Of course, if I was selling cars or products for cars, I might be against this.
    Have you ever lived outside a city or town?
    Have you ever had a job that requires anything other than selling things?

    I'm guessing not as otherwise you would realise your suggestions are not feasible.


    If someone has 10 cars parked on the drive...they are not emitting anything.

    Of course, if they were EVs, all plugged into the network, they would be being used as battery storage, capturing excess green energy and feeding back into the grid when it is required.
     
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    That's subjective (sensible prices)....and if we are honest, you are letting your bias cloud your judgement. Especially if you ahvent even tried one!
    But hey, dont worry, no one is forcing you to change anything. The world will continue to change, and you can stick with what you have for the rest of your life.

    Your posts get more and more stupid due I'd guess out of desperation.

    I am not the slightest bit biased, had a Tesla on my shortlist which I did try out but elected to buy something else instead.

    You chucked in to your ever more desperate arguments that there were plenty of EVs available with a range in excess of 300 miles and I was politely pointing out that your comment was bollox as there are hardly any and those that are, are very expensive.

    May I politely suggest that you don't enter into arguments when you don't know what you are talking about
     
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    Scubadog

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    Your posts get more and more stupid due I'd guess out of desperation.

    I am not the slightest bit biased, had a Tesla on my shortlist which I did try out but elected to buy something else instead.

    You chucked in to your ever more desperate arguments that there were plenty of EVs available with a range in excess of 300 miles and I was politely pointing out that your comment was bollox as there are hardly any and those that are, are very expensive.

    May I politely suggest that you don't enter into arguments when you don't know what you are talking about

    It's a pointless point you are making.
    Your wife's new car is expensive and can't do any miles on electric. Your argument is basically "this new technology is too expensive for me"

    What was the cost comparison between the two over their life cycle?

    Presumably, you just ignored the emissions and pollution part in your comparison and just focused on the price right in pounds right now?
     
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    It's a pointless point you are making.
    Your wife's new car is expensive and can't do any miles on electric. Your argument is basically "this new technology is too expensive for me"

    As I said, you are just spouting bollox and I don't intend debating with someone as clueless as you so in the words of the Dragons "I'm out"
     
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    Ozzy

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    It's a pointless point you are making.
    Your wife's new car is expensive and can't do any miles on electric. Your argument is basically "this new technology is too expensive for me"

    What was the cost comparison between the two over their life cycle?

    Presumably, you just ignored the emissions and pollution part in your comparison and just focused on the price right in pounds right now?
    This post makes no sense ?!?!
    You might as well state that OAP’s should stop moaning that food and energy is getting to expensive and instead get outside and chop down some trees for firewood and grow their own food. After all, other people are doing it so why can’t they right?

    As for life cycle and emissions. It is widely accepted that the most environmentally sensitive car to drive is an old diesel and run that into the ground before replacing it. So before anyone who wishes to think about the ice caps goes out and buys an expensive new tech EV believing they are doing it for the environment they should in fact be buying (or keep) an old diesel car and use that until it won’t run any more.

    Personally though where’s the fun in that. Get a nice V8 or V12 that sounds awesome, has a banging sound system, and straight through exhaust that scares the neighbours cat every time you rev the engine as life’s too short.
     
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    MBE2017

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    As for life cycle and emissions. It is widely accepted that the most environmentally sensitive car to drive is an old diesel and run that into the ground before replacing it. So before anyone who wishes to think about the ice caps goes out and buys an expensive new tech EV believing they are doing it for the environment they should in fact be buying (or keep) an old diesel car and use that until it won’t run any more.
    .
    Hence my earlier reply. The main problem I have with electric vehicles is three fold, the initial cost, the cost to the environment regarding the batteries, but most importantly the awful range they have, which makes them totally unsuitable for many people.

    These problems will be overcome, but Diesel engines are highly efficient and can be useful in large areas of the world where electric chargers are unlikely to ever be sited.
     
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    I'm looking at this whole debate over milk floats with a fairly relaxed attitude. I have completed my predictions for the next three-to-five years and quite honestly, the coming upheavals will crush all these parochial issues into insignificance.
    • China is going to face civil unrest - they're fighting over food in Shanghai shops today, there are queues at every food store and the health system there has completely broken down, hearses are backed up to hospitals and you are arguing about milk floats.
    • North Africa is facing the worst famine in its history and you are arguing about milk floats.
    • Yield curves everywhere in the 2yr/10yr range have now inverted, clear signs of a worldwide recession in 12-24 months and you are arguing about milk floats.
    • The house-price bubbles here, in the US and parts of Europe, are about to burst, leaving those with a mortgage in negative equity for a very long time and you are arguing about milk floats.
    • War rages in the heart of Europe, a war that could easily escalate and you are arguing about milk floats.
    • The Eurasian Economic Union is about to launch a new commodity-based currency that will change the way the world trades and you are arguing about milk floats.
    • Real inflation (and not the bogus and heavily manipulated CPI) is about to hit 20% and you are arguing about milk floats.
    • The world is loaded with debts that will never be paid but must default and probably bring the banks down as recession hits and you are arguing about milk floats.
    The world has got other problems and I would concentrate my efforts on preparing for what is coming down the line and forget these silly milk floats - at least until they are better, cheaper, safer and can go much further than Diesel.
     
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    fisicx

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    Mine are already growing, plus the potatoes and onions etc. A lot of these price increases are down to large companies profiteering, but it is getting expensive to live, almost as much as to die now.
    Greenhouse is full of seedlings. Calculated to deliver enough spuds, carrots, onions, courgettes, toms, peppers and others to last a year. Chickens provide a load of eggs. It’s dead easy to reduce monthly bills with a bit of planning. Even with heating costs are going down not up. Thermostatic values mean we only need to heat a very small part of the house.
     
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    Mr D

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    I agree, I think if we could improve on insulation then thermostats could he limited to 20.
    Similarly, I limit it to 18 in the evenings and during the night given I have young children.

    20?

    That would kill me off.
    This time of year I will normally have heating at 26 or so, with the current cold snap that will increase overnight to 28.

    And before anyone asks yes my gas has gone up and I meet definition of fuel poverty. :)
     
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    Mr D

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    And all those in rented accommodation, they would need permission to install a charger.

    In town there is a block of flats with a central parking area. There is no practical (and cost effective way) to install sufficient chargers for everyone.

    Another housing area has no on road parking. All the vans and work vehicles park up on neighbouring roads with no charging facilities.

    Not saying electric vehicles aren’t a good alternative to fossils fuels, it’s just the practicalities if getting them all charged.


    From what friends have told me some of the EV owners treat the spaces that do have chargers as their own personal spaces. And get dead annoyed if a non=-EV parks there. Whether blocks of flats with insufficient spaces for all residents and visitors or streets where charging facilities are on one section of street right outside people's houses ....
     
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    Ozzy

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    From what friends have told me some of the EV owners treat the spaces that do have chargers as their own personal spaces.
    I always ensure I take my EV charging cable, my blue badge, my sister in laws kids, and a pushchair with me whenever I go out to ensure I always have access to priority parking. You’ve got to make use of the perks when you get them!
     
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    thetiger2015

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    The world has got other problems and I would concentrate my efforts on preparing for what is coming down the line and forget these silly milk floats - at least until they are better, cheaper, safer and can go much further than Diesel.

    ...but we are all being forced to think about EVs, because they're targeting diesel and petrol owners like we're purposefully choosing to poison the planet.

    Diesel/petrol prices are going up, VED is going up, maintenance costs are going up....so then you start thinking about the benefits of an EV but in reality, they're a stop gap. The government clearly sees no future for them. If it did, it would of already invested in on-street charging through the lamposts that line every street. Really easy to do. You just run another cable through them all and then people can plug in if they don't have a drive - use a chip in the vehicle to log on automatically and bill your account for the electricity used etc. The tech is available, as it's really simple but the government have no interest in doing this, because they plan to ban all vehicles in the future. You will have to use your feet or a bicycle, as there is no eco friendly mode of transport.

    Electric vehicles use batteries, metals, plastics - all of these things emit gases during production. The battery components are sourced from mines, we're going back 100 years with this technology! It's not eco friendly, it's just another way for them to extract taxes from people who think they're helping the planet.

    The most eco friendly mode of transport, over long distances....horse and cart made from wood? I can't think of any way to transport goods and equipment over distances using humans.

    They're now talking about building even more nuclear power stations. I mean, how environmentally disastrous is that exactly? Acres of land contaminated for hundreds of years, spent fuel rods gathering dust in huge warehouses, risk of leaks, contamination of local water supplies, endangering wildlife habitats....that is NOT the way to go but then, is this really about being environmentally friendly? or is this all about money making?

    If they were to be serious about eco, they'd start reducing the number of flights leaving UK airports, they'd reduce dependency on overseas trade using massive ships that burn fossil fuels in huge volumes and dump waste in to the sea and they'd look at using ocean/wave technology for plugging gaps in current power production. As an island nation, there's no reason why they cannot create some sort of North Sea field of ocean tech that generates power using water turbines....like a water mill for example.
     
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    WaveJumper

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    Ok a slight change of tack here and with the risk of starting another stampede to the fuel pumps big issues here getting fuel garages closed (even Tesco forecourt) ended up queuing for over 45 mins at BP (£1.85 a litre) to get my car off empty. Speaking to the guy in the garage he told me the issues were due to protester blocking access for tankers at depots.

    Tesco had a tanker yesterday morning cars waiting to fill up when they reopened were stretching down the ring road. Son tells me this morning all local garages closed again including Tesco's here

    Have I missed something on the news?

    And @Ozzy when I did get my fuel I managed to eventually get down to Tesla and take a proper look at the model Y I like the shape but the interior would take some getting used too.
     
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    Ozzy

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    Have I missed something on the news?
    Not yet, but I'm sure some halfwit red top editor will publish some form of "fuel shortages" headline and we'll see the rush on the pumps like we did before because one BP station ran low.
    I like the shape but the interior would take some getting used too.
    That was my opinion. The technology and the body shape is good, but the interior didn't justify the price tag. The Model X cost about the same price as a RR Sport but when I parked them side by side, got in and out of each and drove them both around there was no comparison (I have a requirement to be able to tow a horse trailer and occasionally drive across fields with bails in the back).
     
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    MBE2017

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    Diesel/petrol prices are going up, VED is going up, maintenance costs are going up....so then you start thinking about the benefits of an EV but in reality, they're a stop gap. The government clearly sees no future for them. If it did, it would of already invested in on-street charging through the lamposts that line every street. Really easy to do. You just run another cable through them all and then people can plug in if they don't have a drive - use a chip in the vehicle to log on automatically and bill your account for the electricity used etc.
    This made myself laugh. In my area, approx eight years ago, our council converted the town to LED street lighting, and took the opportunity to reduce the number of street lamps at the same time. In my road of 85 houses, we have just six street lamps.
     
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    UKSBD

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    This made myself laugh. In my area, approx eight years ago, our council converted the town to LED street lighting, and took the opportunity to reduce the number of street lamps at the same time. In my road of 85 houses, we have just six street lamps.

    have a look at that document I linked to earlier

    They are talking about just having little holes in the pavements which pop up when you want to use the plug.
     
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    UKSBD

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    Thanks, that's a useful link.
    People just need to change their mindset

    Change is coming and a lot quicker than a lot think.

    I still think it is a generation away (changing car generation), my last car in 2020 was a mild hybrid, next in about 2025 will probably be a hybrid (if they are sill around then) but one after that will almost definitely be a full EV

    The biggest stumbling block I see are people who can only afford to buy 8 - 12 year old cars, what is going to happen to those people?
     
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    IanSuth

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    have a look at that document I linked to earlier

    They are talking about just having little holes in the pavements which pop up when you want to use the plug.
    As someone who has had a council install "pop up" anchor points for motorbike bays, "pop up" bollards for bus gates and "pop up" urinals even (yes honestly) I hope they budget for the high maintenance bill and have enough redundancy to cover the ones out of order (or parked over). Moving mechanical parts are hassle and who wants to be scrabbling around the ground to plug in. Much better to use existing street furniture that is above ground like Lamp standards, Bollards etc.

    This is not an anti EV thing - it is an anti people trying to come up with clever solutions when a simple cheaper one is better

    Although I will say my brother is awaiting a Tesla ( I think it is an X, I know he ticked every optional extra, with range over the extra boost feature), they keep slipping the delivery date. He ordered in October and currently it is Spring 2023 - it is to replace his PHEV Outlander that he can charge at work and therefore get a free commute (15 miles each way), but he is honest a lot of his colleagues just fill it up with fuel ignore the Hybrid bit, charge their fuel through work and are dragging a bunch of heavy batteries around for no benefit to anyone.
     
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    Another thing to consider is that young people don't want cars - petrol, diesel, or EV


    Article is pre Covid, so this is not a lockdown thing, although I'm sure that will have increased it.

    Is this the future of EVs?

     
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    Ozzy

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    Article is pre Covid, so this is not a lockdown thing, although I'm sure that will have increased it.
    My son turns 17 in a few weeks, and has no interest at all in driving. Doesn't want a car and sees it as a waste of money, he's studying in software development and knows he'll probably be working from home all the time anyway.
     
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    UKSBD

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    Mine is the same, problem is he lives 10 miles from college and busses cost about £9 for a return ticket which means I have to take him in and pick him up.

    Daughter is the same, works about 2 miles away, not safe to walk so have to take her in as well.

    Only real driving I do is transporting them about
     
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    IanSuth

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    My daughter similar but as she is now 25 miles away at Uni in West London she opted for a 2007 Honda Varadero 125, does 100mpg+, cost £1400 (now worth £2k) and 2007 so ULEZ compliant with zero parking charges in 99.9% of the country. VED is £22 and her insurance is now down to sub £300.

    If electric bikes were a sensible price (or when 2nd hand zero's become available) it would make total sense for her but currently cheaper and quicker than public transport by a lot and in lockdown it gave her some freedom without having to go on a packed bus
     
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    People just need to change their mindset
    Or not!

    I accept that things are changing, but don't feel the need to dive into that change.

    My views are:

    1. The EVs currently available are mostly over-priced rubbish.

    2. Aspects of infrastructure, support & disposal haven't been thought through.

    3. It makes zero sense, economically or environmentaly to exchange a perfectly functioning petrol car from a new EV.


    No doubt cars of the future won't be fuel burners, But I for one will be following not leading the change.
     
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    Mine is the same, problem is he lives 10 miles from college and busses cost about £9 for a return ticket which means I have to take him in and pick him up.

    Daughter is the same, works about 2 miles away, not safe to walk so have to take her in as well.

    Only real driving I do is transporting them about

    Perfect customers for an Ami or something similar. Range and performance aren't an issue for this type of journey, same with @IanSuth.
     
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    IanSuth

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    Perfect customers for an Ami or something similar. Range and performance aren't an issue for this type of journey, same with @IanSuth.
    There is an Ami and also a twizzi near me (the twizzi is used by the security on a local business estate)

    Honest answer - great in France where the licencing rules are such a teenager can use one from 14 but not a car until 18 but pointless in the UK where it is 16 to 17 , they are designed with that market in mind where traditionally french teenagers had a mobylette they could use within the confines of a town restricted to sub 30mph. This is an area i know a fair amount about because the french tried to push anti tampering rules in to stop those 50cc's being tuned and those were taken up by some doo gooder MEP's who tried to grow it to cover all motorcycles (and at one point cars) which would have made owning and maintaining more expensive with things like sheer bolts in heads. That was defeated

    If we had truly had to follow EU rules we would have had those licensing rules here - but we didnt so we ignored them (in fact picking the most stupid bits which made the BMW C1 pointless and all uk bike tests have to take place offroad at great extra cost as we didnt translate 50kph to 30mph)
     
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    IanSuth

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    Just checked Ami is likely to be c£6k and has a 45mile range max speed 28mph - i wouldn't drive a car at 28mph along the A4 let alone let a teenager do it (as i said in France same as mobylettes these are for use inside urban limits), her journey is 29.2miles (avoiding the M4) and includes large parts outside 30mph zones.

    I believe the university still requires parking permits for EV's (but not for motorcycles) irrelevant of whether you could charge it there or not

    100mpg is c 35km/l, her round trip is c 60miles so 1.7litres, £1.65/l = £2.83

    Assuming 0 VED and free charging plus insurance the same (it wouldnt be as she would need fully comp on a new Ami not the tpft she has on bike)

    6000 - 1500 (cost of bike) = £4500

    Over 3 years

    £1500 per yr or 530 round trips a year, that is double a daily commute

    If you assume it is still worth £2k at the end of 3 yrs and ignore that her bike has appreciated (huge demand for Ulez compliant 125's in London)

    4000-1500 = £2500 which is still 294 round trips a year for 3 years or roughly a daily commute

    If she uses the train it is £16 return with a railcard takes 1.5 to 2hrs plus a another 10-30min for the bus at £1.50 each way (there is a train change and a bus wait so total journey is anything from abut 1.45 to 2.30 hours) Bike takes 45-50mins, reckon an Ami would be c1.15 depending on traffic as you can't filter one (not sure if allowed in Slough's bus lanes either)

    Edit - I forgot to include the £66 VED for her bike over the 3 years and the £78 of total MOT test fees but that £150 is only £50 or 18 journeys a yr difference
     
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    I think the A4 bit could kill the idea for me. If she was pottering around Edinburgh then the journey looks better.

    Of course, you're comparing new with used, I think the figures would be a lot closer with a new bike.

    New bikes seem to be around £3,000 and up?

    Having said that, it's almost always better to stick with what you've got, from an environmental and financial point of view.
     
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    UKSBD

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    The 28mph is the problem.

    If just used as a city car they are fine, we are out in sticks though, 2 miles to small town, 10 miles to bigger towns with 60mph roads.

    I would want minimum top speed of 60 and minimum range of 100

    I looked at a Renault ZOE a few years back, but far too expensive for what it was
     
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