Reclaiming VAT, invoice in 3rd party name

Newchodge

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    I have just concluded an agreement to terminate an employee's contract, with compensation. As required, the employee receivd advice from an independent solicitor about the effect of the agreement. The agreement included a statement to the effect that the employer would pay the legal advisor's fees on receipt of an invoice addressed to them.

    The solicitor, without querying the wording of the agreement has submitted their invoice addressed to the employee and annotated that it is to be paid by the named employer. I have asked that they comply with the agreement and issue an invoice to the employer. They have refused.

    Can anyone advise whether the employer can reclaim the VAT paid on an invoice addressed in this way?
     
    An interesting read here that may give you some clues. https://www.taxinsider.co.uk/vat-should-an-invoice-always-be-in-the-name-of-the-business-ta
    It may be that the person who received the advice was an employee at the time and given a contract exists which shows how this arrangement is to work and that the invoice is annotated to state that the employer will pay and given the employee is unlikely to be VAT registered and therefore unable to reclaim VAT themselves there is no risk to HMRC that a double claim for VAT recovery may arise. Take that will a pinch of salt.
     
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    A bit of a borderline one here! Under UK VAT regulations, in order to reclaim VAT, the recipient of the invoice must be the same entity that is claiming the VAT. In this case, since the invoice was addressed to the employee, the employer may not be able to reclaim the VAT on that invoice.

    However, the solicitor has muddled the issue by stating that the legal client is not one and the same as the person liable for paying the invoice, i.e. the customer. Unfortunately, there is no separate word in English for the person represented and the paying customer. (There is in other languages.)

    I suggest that the employer simply tells this bonehead of a solicitor that until he gets an orderly invoice made out to the customer, he cannot pay the bill.

    He can head the thing 'Legal services provided to Joe Bloggs on XX.XX.2023'. We have a policy that we do not pay anything if there is no orderly and fully correct invoice - hardly a difficult thing to do!
     
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    A bit of a borderline one here! Under UK VAT regulations, in order to reclaim VAT, the recipient of the invoice must be the same entity that is claiming the VAT. In this case, since the invoice was addressed to the employee, the employer may not be able to reclaim the VAT on that invoice.

    However, the solicitor has muddled the issue by stating that the legal client is not one and the same as the person liable for paying the invoice, i.e. the customer. Unfortunately, there is no separate word in English for the person represented and the paying customer. (There is in other languages.)

    I suggest that the employer simply tells this bonehead of a solicitor that until he gets an orderly invoice made out to the customer, he cannot pay the bill.

    He can head the thing 'Legal services provided to Joe Bloggs on XX.XX.2023'. We have a policy that we do not pay anything if there is no orderly and fully correct invoice - hardly a difficult thing to do!
    Thanks. That is my attitude, while I haven't decided yet whether to point out that the invoice is payable because the solicitor has read the agreement in full and advised the employee of any potenital issues. As they didn't spot this one I am very inclined to suggest that the invoice has been issued under false pretences as well as wrongly!
     
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    Having just taken the dogs for a trot, I thought about this one and it is of course a VERY usual situation, particularly in the media (film, TV, music, publishing, you name 'em and this is dead normal).

    Under UK publishing case law, the senior party to an unequal relationship - e.g. rock band signs with a giant record company - must ensure that the junior party is made fully aware of their rights, etc. of any and all contracts signed. If this does not happen, the contract may have difficulty standing up in court and may even be voided.

    The normal drill is for the publisher (who will have their own in-house legal team) to tell the band to get some legal representation to go a solicitor of their choice, but send the invoices all to Universal Music (or whoever it is).

    (The band may think that they are getting a freebie, but it will all be accounted for against future royalties of course!)

    Your situation is extremely similar and whoever issued that invoice cannot claim that it is in any way unusual or irregular. So if they want to be paid, I would tell them to issue a proper invoice.
     
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    Even if they did have the invoice addressed to them (which I consider incorrect), they can't claim the input VAT as no services were supplied to them.

    EDIT typed at the same time @Scalloway



     
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    Even if they did have the invoice addressed to them (which I consider incorrect), they can't claim the input VAT as no services were supplied to them.

    EDIT typed at the same time @Scalloway



    Nice link.
     
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    @Scalloway @NicoJ Thanks for the suggestion. However the ONLY beneficiary of the legal advice (even though it is given to the employee) is the employer. The purpose of the advice is to prevent the employee taking legal action against the employer. That is of no benefit to the employee, only to the employer.

    EDIT: That is why the employer usually pays for the legal advice.
     
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    If there is no benefit to the employee then why does the employee need the advice?

    If the outcome is that the advice prevents the employer having to deal with legal action brought by the employee that the employer is probably going to win there is a benefit to the employee.

    The employee has learned that the legal action is likely to fail; something that the employee didn’t know before the advice.

    Perhaps the legal advice should have been given to the employer (and charged to the employer) with the employee in attendance, if permissible. Hopefully the employee would have picked up on the fact that pursuing a claim would be dubious.

    The fact that the employer regularly seeks advice from the solicitor and does not learn wouldn’t be a reason for HMRC to disallow the VAT reclaim, in my view, but nevertheless my challenge it.

    I may of course not understood the precise circumstances.
     
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    If there is no benefit to the employee then why does the employee need the advice?

    If the outcome is that the advice prevents the employer having to deal with legal action brought by the employee that the employer is probably going to win there is a benefit to the employee.

    The employee has learned that the legal action is likely to fail; something that the employee didn’t know before the advice.

    Perhaps the legal advice should have been given to the employer (and charged to the employer) with the employee in attendance. Hopefully the employee would have picked up on the fact that pursuing a claim would be dubious.

    The fact that the employer regularly seeks advice from the solicitor and does not learn wouldn’t be a reason for HMRC to disallow the VAT reclaim, in my view, but nevertheless my challenge it.

    I may of course not understood the precise circumstances.
    No, you haven't. The employee needs the advice because the employer will not pay any money to settle the matter unless the employee cannot take a legal claim. However, the employer COULD pay the money without such a restriction, but would be stupid to do so. The legal advise is NOT about the merits of any potential case, just about ensuring the employee understands that a legal case cannot be taken.

    An employee cannot give up their statutory right to take a claim unless they have received legal advice that they are doing so.
     
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    If the advice amounts giving up a right to taking further or any legal action in order to receive a payment/settlement then again there is a benefit to the employee (something not known before). Unless you have a legal obligation to incur those costs then it is hard to see how you could recover any input VAT. If you did have a legal obligation then I would start crawling over finer points of the above link to HMRC.

    The other issue you have is that the invoice is made out to the employee because the solicitor clearly thinks they are giving advice to the employee. Would the solicitor be convinced that the obligation is on the employer and bill the employer accordingly?

    By paying the bill on the employe’s behalf there are of course other tax implications.
     
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    If the advice amounts giving up a right to taking further or any legal action in order to receive a payment/settlement then again there is a benefit to the employee (something not known before). Unless you have a legal obligation to incur those costs then it is hard to see how you could recover any input VAT. If you did have a legal obligation then I would start crawling over finer points of the above link to HMRC.

    The other issue you have is that the invoice is made out to the employee because the solicitor clearly thinks they are giving advice to the employee. Would the solicitor be convinced that the obligation is on the employer and bill the employer accordingly?

    By paying the bill on the employe’s behalf there are of course other tax implications.
    Can we just accept that the employer would be entitled to reclaim VAT and get back to the question. Can they do so if the invoice is issued as described?
     
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    No because the foregoing was establishing that the solicitor’s service was provided to the employee and thus is the employee’s liability. Thus the employer is not, on the face of it, entitled to recover the input VAT.

    Furthermore, if the employer settles a bill that is the responsibility of the employee and that employee is obliged to pay then this is known as settling the employee’s pecuniary liability. In such circumstances the employer should “gross up” the payment, inclusive of VAT, and account for PAYE on it.

    Unless there is a legal obligation to incur these costs then this, to me, seems to be the financial outcome of paying an employee’s bill.
     
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    No because the foregoing was establishing that the solicitor’s service was provided to the employee and thus is the employee’s liability. Thus the employer is not, on the face of it, entitled to recover the input VAT.

    Furthermore, if the employer settles a bill that is the responsibility of the employee and that employee is obliged to pay then this is known as settling the employee’s pecuniary liability. In such circumstances the employer should “gross up” the payment, inclusive of VAT, and account for PAYE on it.

    Unless there is a legal obligation to incur these costs then this, to me, seems to be the financial outcome of paying an employee’s bill.
    Never mind.
     
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    No because the foregoing was establishing that the solicitor’s service was provided to the employee and thus is the employee’s liability. Thus the employer is not, on the face of it, entitled to recover the input VAT.

    Furthermore, if the employer settles a bill that is the responsibility of the employee and that employee is obliged to pay then this is known as settling the employee’s pecuniary liability. In such circumstances the employer should “gross up” the payment, inclusive of VAT, and account for PAYE on it.

    Unless there is a legal obligation to incur these costs then this, to me, seems to be the financial outcome of paying an employee’s bill.
    This has been established practice for the 40 odd years I have been dealing with these matters. I would have expected someone to have raised it in that time if it were an issue.
     
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    Unless you have a legal obligation to incur those costs then it is hard to see how you could recover any input VAT.
    I cannot speak to this case, but in the example with the rock band of young musicians, the publisher is under an effective obligation as a contract is not valid if one party is unable to understand the contract. Indeed, a publishing contract must contain the usual para along the lines of "I have received independent legal advice and had the conditions and . . . " and so on.

    You must separate the legal client and the customer. In German, we have different words for these concepts 'Mandant' and 'Kunde'. The two are usually, but not always, the same person - think of them as legal client and paying customer.

    The Mandant is the party that is receiving the professional services, a Kunde is a customer or client who is purchasing goods or services. If I purchase the services of a lawyer or an accountant for a son, I am the Kunde (customer) but my son is the Mandant (legal client).

    If the UK has (yet again!) some absurd and arcane law preventing two very separate roles from being exercised by two separate bodies - then so be it, but this is the first I have heard of this exception.

    If I choose to buy goods or services in the name of my company, that is totally my affair. If I then choose to reassign those goods or services to another, that is no business of the original provider and any tax implications are totally to be settled between my company and the new recipient.
     
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    Hopefully this helps

    hmrc-internal-manuals/vat-supply-and-consideration/vatsc11533

    it will not let me post the link not sure why but if you look up the above

    As always with VAT it comes down to who is providing what to who,
     
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    @Scalloway @NicoJ Thanks for the suggestion. However the ONLY beneficiary of the legal advice (even though it is given to the employee) is the employer. The purpose of the advice is to prevent the employee taking legal action against the employer. That is of no benefit to the employee, only to the employer.

    EDIT: That is why the employer usually pays for the legal advice.
    Did you read the link I posted? It has a link to the VAT guidance contained within.

    VAT is concerned with the supply, which in this case was the employee (regardless of the semantics). I can't see that the solicitor has done anything wrong here, the employer can't claim the VAT.

    I answered your question in my post #7 above BTW. If the supply is not to the employer, they can't claim the VAT regardless of who it is addressed to.
     
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    Sorry NicoJ I didn’t realise that the guidance I gave reference to was included in your previous post,
    Your link is the general supply and conaideration guidance which is still relevant to explain HMRC view. The link i posted was specific (sc11534) to legal costs paid on behalf of third parties.

    No need to apologise.
     
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    OK people, let's take a few different examples -

    1. I take my grandson to a DIY store and buy a cordless drill on a company account. I get an invoice that includes VAT. I give the drill to my grandson right there at the cash desk as a late birthday present. What implications does that have for the DIY store?

    2. Our Mrs.M. goes to the accountant on my behalf and gets some advice about PAYE entries and employee rights. She then - again, on company business - to the lawyers and asks them about employee rights and the wording of a contract. Whose name goes on the invoice?

    3. Employer and employee go to a lawyer to have the contents of a contract explained. Whose name goes on the invoice?

    4. An old biddy falls over in our business and she litigates. The court awards costs. I tell the old biddy that we shall pay the legal fees directly for her. Whose name goes on the invoice?

    Answers - 1. None. 2. The company's name. 3. The company's name. 4. The old biddy's name (as per the paper issued by the Law Society).

    Now do we all get the difference between Kunde and Mandant?
     
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    OK people, let's take a few different examples -

    1. I take my grandson to a DIY store and buy a cordless drill on a company account. I get an invoice that includes VAT. I give the drill to my grandson right there at the cash desk as a late birthday present. What implications does that have for the DIY store?

    2. Our Mrs.M. goes to the accountant on my behalf and gets some advice about PAYE entries and employee rights. She then - again, on company business - to the lawyers and asks them about employee rights and the wording of a contract. Whose name goes on the invoice?

    3. Employer and employee go to a lawyer to have the contents of a contract explained. Whose name goes on the invoice?

    4. An old biddy falls over in our business and she litigates. The court awards costs. I tell the old biddy that we shall pay the legal fees directly for her. Whose name goes on the invoice?

    Answers - 1. None. 2. The company's name. 3. The company's name. 4. The old biddy's name (as per the paper issued by the Law Society).

    Now do we all get the difference between Kunde and Mandant?
    Now give the VAT treatment of each of those scenarios. Who can claim the VAT in each specific scenario?
     
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    Nope. And that, in a nutshell is what this entire thread boils down to.
    Now you have to explain in each case how the person claiming the VAT back can be someone other than the person named - especially in examples 2 & 3!

    And you can explain to our Mrs.M. that the next time she toddles off to the accountants, to get our books done - that I am going to stiff her for a large accountants' bill! "Well, you asked them to do it!" I shall say.

    "But that was company business!" she will cry.

    "So what!" I shall retort. "UK law refuses to see any difference between the legal client and the physical person - I know this because some people on a forum told me so!"

    I have a feeling that this approach could cause consternation in the ranks - to say the least! It would also cause our Mrs.M. to doubt my sanity - which I strongly suspect she does anyway!
     
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    Challenge accepted.

    OK people, let's take a few different examples -

    1. I take my grandson to a DIY store and buy a cordless drill on a company account. I get an invoice that includes VAT. I give the drill to my grandson right there at the cash desk as a late birthday present. What implications does that have for the DIY store?
    The supply is to the company but as the drill is clearly not bought for business purposes it can't claim the VAT. There are other implications here but we will ignore them for now.

    If the drill was originally bought for the business then it could claim the input vat but it would have to charge a corresponding amount of output vat when it gifted the drill. Neutral vat position.
    2. Our Mrs.M. goes to the accountant on my behalf and gets some advice about PAYE entries and employee rights. She then - again, on company business - to the lawyers and asks them about employee rights and the wording of a contract. Whose name goes on the invoice?
    The company claims the VAT as the advice is related to the business and therefore the supply is to the company. Mrs M is an advocate of the company and is not acting on her own behalf.
    3. Employer and employee go to a lawyer to have the contents of a contract explained. Whose name goes on the invoice?
    Normally you would have independent advice so this is a bit of a trick one. It would be whomever the lawyer deems to be their client who receives the supply and can therefore claim the VAT.
    4. An old biddy falls over in our business and she litigates. The court awards costs. I tell the old biddy that we shall pay the legal fees directly for her. Whose name goes on the invoice?
    Regardless of whose name is on the invoice (but the link I posted suggests that legally it would be the old lady) the supply is to the lady so it would be her who could claim input VAT should there be any. This could potentially be classed as out of scope anyway so no VAT would be charged.
    Answers - 1. None. 2. The company's name. 3. The company's name. 4. The old biddy's name (as per the paper issued by the Law Society).

    Now do we all get the difference between Kunde and Mandant?
    Quoting German law will not answer a UK VAT question.
     
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    Now you have to explain in each case how the person claiming the VAT back can be someone other than the person named - especially in examples 2 & 3!
    See paragraph 8 in the judgment below.

    The solicitors invoices were all addressed to the company's director who received the legal advice yet his company was able to reclaim the VAT on those invoices.

    The OP's position may be similar even though the person concerned was not its director but its employee. The advice was for the purpose of the business as well as for the benefit of the former employee.

     
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    See paragraph 8 in the judgment below.

    The solicitors invoices were all addressed to the company's director who received the legal advice yet his company was able to reclaim the VAT on those invoices.

    The OP's position may be similar even though the person concerned was not its director but its employee. The advice was for the purpose of the business as well as for the benefit of the former employee.

    Thanks for that.

    I think my headache is getting worse!
     
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    Quoting German law will not answer a UK VAT question.
    It is a question not of jurisdiction but of language. It is important to separate the two or more functions of a customer. English does not have different words for all the various functions, esp. when dealing with philosophical niceties such as legal client, customer, agent, counterparty, and so on. I used German to differentiate between two of these legal concepts that most people confuse because the words client and customer are almost synonymous.

    Where all this confusion arises is not "Who is the customer and who is the legal client?" but it may be a simple conflict of interest. The solicitor is being paid by the employer but is advising the employee - and these have different (and possibly conflicting) interests.

    That is however NOT a question of VAT!

    Not only that, but in this case the solicitor is leaving him/herself wide open to an accusation of a conflict of interest and has even gone so far as to confirm this in writing!
    The solicitor, without querying the wording of the agreement has submitted their invoice addressed to the employee and annotated that it is to be paid by the named employer.
    That constitutes a possible conflict of interest and may void any contract that is subject to such a conflict.

    @Newchodge - perhaps a polite pointing out of this may cause the beagle to issue a different invoice!
     
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    It is a question not of jurisdiction but of language. It is important to separate the two or more functions of a customer. English does not have different words for all the various functions, esp. when dealing with philosophical niceties such as legal client, customer, agent, counterparty, and so on. I used German to differentiate between two of these legal concepts that most people confuse because the words client and customer are almost synonymous.

    Where all this confusion arises is not "Who is the customer and who is the legal client?" but it may be a simple conflict of interest. The solicitor is being paid by the employer but is advising the employee - and these have different (and possibly conflicting) interests.

    That is however NOT a question of VAT!

    Not only that, but in this case the solicitor is leaving him/herself wide open to an accusation of a conflict of interest and has even gone so far as to confirm this in writing!

    That constitutes a possible conflict of interest and may void any contract that is subject to such a conflict.

    @Newchodge - perhaps a polite pointing out of this may cause the beagle to issue a different invoice!
    I think I have probably extablished (with the help of several contributors here) that the beagle has issued the invoice correctly. And that the employer is probably NOT entitled to claim VAT, not because of the name on the invoice but because the service was supplied to the employee.

    What I have done nothing about is pointing out that the time to raise this issue was when the beagle was considering the agreement and advising the employee that the contents were approriate and she should sign.
     
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    Auditors are often known for doing something one way because they did it that way last year so it must be right!

    It often pays to ask yourself “On what basis do I make this claim?”

    It has been done this way for over forty years. VAT was introduced in 1973 so it passes that test. “Done this way” by your firm or all firms and how do you know the latter?

    You have asked whether the VAT on an invoice charged to a third party can be reclaimed by another party. I presume you ask because you consider there to be doubt and are clearly more diligent than your predecessors. If your predecessors had raised the issue and concluded that it was allowable then they would be able to avail you (and us) of the reasoning; but they appear not to be able to.

    Employee expenses are a good example of allowable recoverable VAT on invoices not made out to the registered entity making the claim.

    On the face of it, it does not appear to pass the test of being provided to the employer and neither does it appear to be a legal obligation on the employer to pay. The employer chooses to pay because it potentially avoids irrecoverable costs associated with defending a claim it is certain(?) to win.

    The solicitor refuses to invoice the employer because it considers the service to be provided to the employee.

    Therefore on what basis do you make the claim of being able to recover the VAT? Probably left with some previous ruling or relying on precedent. However it is worth remembering that only Acts of Parliament and Statutory Instruments have the force of law and only courts can authoritatively interpret them.

    For what it is worth, my view is that, based on the information available it would not be recoverable and would look for some precise ruling determining that it is allowable. I would be genuinely pleased to learn of such recoverability.
    This has been established practice for the 40 odd years I have been dealing with these matters. I would have expected someone to have raised it in that time if it were an issue.
     
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    “Done this way” by your firm or all firms and how do you know the latter?
    Until recently, I acted for the employees in these cases, and my involvement was ensuring the proposed agreement was acceptable before passing the employee to an independent lawyer who gave the required advice and (as far as I can recall) invariably issued the invoice to the employer.

    A further thought arises: if the lawyer has billed the employee and the employer has paid the bill, is that a BIK?
     
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    If the employee chose and instructed the lawyer and the employer had no role in any of the proceedings (other than to offer to pay the fee) then the invoice is correct and there is no conflict of interest.

    If the lawyer was instructed initially by the employer to give advice to the employee, then there MAY be some conflict of interest.

    If the lawyer is instructed by the employer AND the lawyer drafted the contract, but gave what was represented as independent advice, that (IMO) is a clear conflict of interest and the invoice should be to the employer.

    What you have not mentioned is what your role is in all this! Are you there for the employer or the employee? Your OP strongly implies that you are working for the employer and that the lawyer was hired by the employer.
     
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    If the employee chose and instructed the lawyer and the employer had no role in any of the proceedings (other than to offer to pay the fee) then the invoice is correct and there is no conflict of interest.

    If the lawyer was instructed initially by the employer to give advice to the employee, then there MAY be some conflict of interest.

    If the lawyer is instructed by the employer AND the lawyer drafted the contract, but gave what was represented as independent advice, that (IMO) is a clear conflict of interest and the invoice should be to the employer.

    What you have not mentioned is what your role is in all this! Are you there for the employer or the employee? Your OP strongly implies that you are working for the employer and that the lawyer was hired by the employer.
    I am working for the employer. The employee was told they needed to instruct a lawyer to advise on the settlement agreement, specifically with regard to the legal effect of accepting the agreement, as required by law. The employer, as is normal, agreed to pay the reasonable costs incurred.
     
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    You represent the employer!

    Did the employee freely choose the lawyer and did the lawyer have any input on redrafting that contract to greater benefit his/her client?

    If the client/employee freely chose that lawyer and you or the employer had no role in appointing that lawyer, then it is a clear case that falls under the SRA guidelines. It also means that the customer and the legal client are one and the same person.
     
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    It's not always clear cut with VAT.

    For sample if you sell gingerbread men with two chocolate eyes then it's zero rated but if you give it a pair of chocolate trousers as well then you're asking for trouble as it would be standard rated.

    And it might even be illegal to sell it as a gingerbread man.

     
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    Until recently, I acted for the employees in these cases, and my involvement was ensuring the proposed agreement was acceptable before passing the employee to an independent lawyer who gave the required advice and (as far as I can recall) invariably issued the invoice to the employer.

    A further thought arises: if the lawyer has billed the employee and the employer has paid the bill, is that a BIK?
    Caution - may lead to headaches.

    Croner-i website gives the following useful information:
    A benefit in kind is taxed as earnings if it is money or money’s worth, which includes things that are of direct monetary value to the employee.

    Where an employer pays a debt which was owed by an employee to a third party (e.g. an electricity or telephone bill), there is a direct monetary value to the employee who no longer needs to pay that bill personally. This is known as the employee’s ‘pecuniary liability’. There is also a direct monetary value if the employer writes off a loan which it has made to the employee.

    The distinction between a pecuniary liability and a benefit-in kind is particularly important for NIC purposes. A benefit in kind is subject to Class 1A (employer only) NICs and is reported for tax on form P11D. A pecuniary liability is also reported for tax on form P11D, but must be subjected to Class 1 (employee and employer) NICs through the payroll.

    To decide whether there was an employee’s pecuniary liability, look at the underlying contract. Who was liable to pay the debt? If the answer is ‘the employer’, then it was a benefit in kind. If the answer is ‘the employee’ then it was a pecuniary liability.

    If the employer pays an employee’s debt in respect of something for which there is an exemption or for which the employee would have been entitled to an allowable deduction, those exceptions still apply. The employee is only taxed on payments to which the exemption or deduction does not apply.

    Example 1
    Joan uses her personal mobile phone to make business calls to customers while away from the office from time to time.
    Her employer pays the mobile phone bill directly.
    The employer is meeting Joan’s pecuniary liability, so the cash equivalent will be taxable (and also subject to Class 1 NICs through the payroll).
    In calculating the cash equivalent, Joan may be entitled to an allowable deduction for the cost of the business calls.

    Example 2
    John also makes business calls to customers while away from the office from time to time, so his employer provides him with a company mobile phone.
    His employer pays the mobile phone bill directly.
    The employer is meeting its own liability, as it is a company phone. John has a benefit in kind from use of the phone.
    John is unlikely to suffer tax because mobile phones are normally an exempt benefit.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    If applicable and the employer wants the employee to suffer no taxes then the following should be considered:
     
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