NEED HELP - DAMAGES TO PREMISE

[sam2446]

Hi. I hold the leasehold of an ground floor shop unit which I have had for the past 30 years. The same landlord owns the first floor storage area which she leases to someone else.

The complete guttering system above is completely blocked with slates and weed. due to this when it rains the water runs down the wall and into the property. This has further caused one of the wooden beams to rot and the floor has collapse.

I wrote to the Landlord and told her what the damage is and and sent her the pictures of the damage and the cause, bearing in mind the landlord herself is in her late 80's and it has been over 15 years since she last visited the property. At first she replied back saying she will contact the builders and get some quotes. today I have received a letter from her saying she has investigated the matter of the damage to the floor and according to the lease she is not responsible for the damages. she has referred to section 3 clause 4,26 and 28 of the lease agreement which are as following;

4) Repairs
From time to time and at all times during the Term (whether the Landlord shall or shall not have served notice requiring the Tenant so to do) well and substantially to repair cleanse support maintain and keep in good and substantial repair and when necessary rebuild reconstruct renew or replace all the Demised Premises and every part thereof and all walls fences roads paths yards forecourts drains sewers and appurtances of or belonging to the Demised Premises with all manner of reparations cleansing and amendments whatsoever and with all proper and sound brick stone and timber and other materials of suitable quality and description which shall - or may be requisite when and as often as occasion shall require (damage by the Insured Risks excepted save where the insurance monies are rendered irrecoverable in consequence of some act or default of the Tenant or any person at the Demised Premises expressly or by implication with the Tenant's authority)

26) Refuse
Not to form or permit to be formed a rubbish dump on the Demised Premises but to keep all rubbish and refuse in properly covered receptacles to the satisfaction of the Landlord and not to store or stack any goods materials or other objects on any part or parts of the Demised Premises which may for the time being be unbuilt upon except in properly screened areas designed and constructed for that purpose and not to hang place or deposit nor permit to be hung placed or deposited any goods materials articles or things for sale or display or otherwise outside any building erected upon the Demised Premises or on any forecourt or yard forming part of the Demised Premises


28) Fire Regulations
To keep any fire fighting and extinguishing apparatus installed in compliance with any legal requirements open to the inspection and maintained to the reasonable satisfaction of the Landlord (so far as not opposed to the legal obligations of the Tenant) and also not to obstruct the access to or means of working such apparatus and appliances by his operations at or connected with the Demised Premises

I personally don't understand why she has referred to clause 26 and 28. however the question is who is responsible for the damage as the damage has been caused by the neglect of either the landlord or the tenant of the first floor.


sorry for the lengthy message

 

[fisicx]

I think clause 4 is pretty clear. It's your (and the upstairs tenant) responsibility to clean and look after the guttering not the landlord.

 

[kulture]

I would take the lease, go see a solicitor, and get them to explain your full obligations under the lease. Depending on the full text you may be obliged to not only keep it in good repair but also repair all damages done. You may be liable for the rot to the beams and the floor. You may have a very expensive repair bill coming your way. BUT it entirely depends on the full wording of the lease. The age of the landlady, and the fact she has not visited is immaterial.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Did you sub let the upstairs or are they on a separate lease

I would suggest you read fully the lease as you may be liable for all repairs to the whole building to place it in the sate it was 30 years ago when you took it over so could get a nasty bill when you decide to move

If sublet upstairs then it would depend on your lease to them

 

[MikeJ]

OP says the landlord leases the top floor.

So whose lease is the roof and guttering under?

 

[sam2446]

Thanks for your reply. Am not too bothered about the guttering. I am more concerned about the floor in the ground floor unit which I occupy. the floor has collapsed and I can not use it. The damaged has been caused by the damaged guttering system. Would I have to pay for the floor or would it be the responsibility of the tenant above or the landlord

 

[sam2446]

thanks chris Ashdown. the two units are on separate leases I have only got the lease for the ground floor. The lease was renewed in 2008 for a further 15 years.

 

[fisicx]

It's certainly not the landlord. If your lease says YOU are responsible for the drains (and by default the guttering) then you are responsible for the repairs because YOU didn't arrange for the guttering and downpipes to be cleared.

 

[sam2446]

Dont Know mikej i assume its on the first floor.

 

[fisicx]

Don't assume anything. Does your copy of the lease have Clause 4 in it? If so then cleaning the gutters are as much your responsibility as the upstairs tenant.

Either way the landlord isn't responsible for repairing anything at all. All costs will be borne by you and the upstairs tenant.

 

[sam2446]

thanks fisicx it doesnt asy anything about the guttering or the roof on my lease

 

[Bradley Holmes]

It seems very strange to me that as the leaseholder of the ground floor you would be expected to maintain the gutters on the other floors.
You´ll have to get someone to read the whole lease though.

 

[fisicx]

thanks fisicx it doesnt asy anything about the guttering or the roof on my lease

But is the clause 4 you quoted the same as on your lease? If so then 'appurtances' means things like gutters and downpipes.

And even if by some quirk of legalese you aren't directly responsible for the actual repairs it could still be claimed that by not reporting the blockages to the upstairs tenant you exacerbated the situation. Which still means you are going to have to pay for the repairs. There is no way out of your predicament, both you and the other tenant are going to have to cough up the dosh.

 

[sam2446]

The lease has the following clause in regards to repairs

4) Repairs

From time to time and at all times during the Term (whether the Landlord shall or shall not have served notice requiring the Tenant so to do) well and substantially to repair cleanse support maintain and keep in good and substantial repair and when necessary rebuild reconstruct renew or replace all the Demised Premises and every part thereof and all walls fences roads paths yards forecourts drains sewers and appurtances of or belonging to the Demised Premises with all manner of reparations cleansing and amendments whatsoever and with all proper and sound brick stone and timber and other materials of suitable quality and description which shall - or may be requisite when and as often as occasion shall require (damage by the Insured Risks excepted save where the insurance monies are rendered irrecoverable in consequence of some act or default of the Tenant or any person at the Demised Premises expressly or by implication with the Tenant's authority)

It states "demised premises". This means that I should only repair the premises which I occupy. Am i right?

 

[sam2446]

It seems very strange to me that as the leaseholder of the ground floor you would be expected to maintain the gutters on the other floors.
You´ll have to get someone to read the whole lease though.

thanks Bradley that's exactly what I am trying to get to

 

[fisicx]

Yes, you are responsible for the bit you occupy. Which means you have to pay for the repairs and claim it back from the other tenant (or insurance). But because you didn't report the blockage there could be a claim of negligence. It's going to get messy and complicated and if the other tenant refuses point blank to negotiate it could well end up in court.

Why didn't you just get a ladder and clean out the gutters yourself?

 

[MikeJ]

The gutters weren't attached to the demised premises. I think you have a reasonable case, and if the other tenant's lease reads the same then it could fall back to the owner (depending on the shape of the roof)

 

[fisicx]

....and if the other tenant's lease reads the same then it could fall back to the owner (depending on the shape of the roof)

The 'appurtances' covers the gutters - but I still think there is dual responsibility to osme degree or another.

 

[sam2446]

Yes, you are responsible for the bit you occupy. Which means you have to pay for the repairs and claim it back from the other tenant (or insurance). But because you didn't report the blockage there could be a claim of negligence. It's going to get messy and complicated and if the other tenant refuses point blank to negotiate it could well end up in court.

Why didn't you just get a ladder and clean out the gutters yourself?

I can get the ladders and clean the gutter which is not a problem. the issue I have is the floor on the ground floor who's responsibility is that mine, the landlords or the tenants above

 

[fisicx]

Your floor your responsibility. It's the Landlords and it's not the other tenant. You many have a claim against them for not cleaning the gutters and subsequent damage but that's up to the insurers to sort out.

 

[Bradley Holmes]

As far as I can find out, it should be clearly defined in the lease who is responsible for repairs. if it is not clear (and it seems like its not 100% clear) then there is probably something that covers it in a rental act or law.

You´ll have to take the lease and get some legal help.

 

[ethical PR]

Sam - have you taken the lease to a solicitor's for clarification ?

What do your insurers say about who is liable for what?

 

[Chris Ashdown]

How long have you known about the floor and what action did you take to remedy the cause, will be one question that will need to be sorted out if you claim on upper floor tenant

 

[fisicx]

Which is why negligence/abrogation of responsibility is going to play a part in the subsequent investigation.

If the building burnt down because the upstairs tenant had broken the fire supression system and the downstrairs tenant did nothing about it I suspect the insurers would be reluctant to pay. Not reporting the blocked gutters is no different.

 

[Nord20]

Wouldn't the Landlord or first floor tenant have to prove that the OP knew the gutters were blocked?

Presuming the OP doesn't have access rights to the gutters without going through either the Landlord's or the first floor tenants premises, is it not unreasonable to expect them to monitor the state of the guttering?