Manchester congestion charge

[Duke Fame]

Anyone got a view on the ridiculous plans our local town clerk has for ruining the economy of Greater Manchester?

 

[JoyDivision]

I actually support it. Congestion is getting worse, and there has been a real lack of investment in public transport in Manchester, the current situation is a joke, with much improved buses, trams and trains we can get millions of people out of their cars and onto public transport, helping to save the planet at the same time.

There are some issues I do have with the congestion charge though, I don't see doing nothing as an option. I live in Chorlton and have seen traffic increased so much in the past 3 years alone.

 

[Duke Fame]

I actually support it. Congestion is getting worse, and there has been a real lack of investment in public transport in Manchester, the current situation is a joke, with much improved buses, trams and trains we can get millions of people out of their cars and onto public transport, helping to save the planet at the same time.

There are some issues I do have with the congestion charge though, I don't see doing nothing as an option. I live in Chorlton and have seen traffic increased so much in the past 3 years alone.

In what way has conjestion worsened?

Since the year 2000 the number of cars has actually reduced by 7% and whilst GMPTE's own propaganda will tell you that average speeds have reduced since 2000, the logical conclusion would be that this reduced speed has not been the result of sheer weight of traffic but of something else. I would suggest traffic speeds are actually being manipulated by traffic management systems to fit in with local governments own political agenda.

In the same period public transport usage has increased by a third which would suggest commuters do not need to be blackmailed onto pulblic transport.

 

[JoyDivision]

Why would the government goto to all that effort? They make more money from cars than they do from public transport. The government must think there is a problem otherwiswe they would not go to all that trouble!

The point of this congestion charge is when all the new transport is funded there will be much better public transport for Manchester's 2.5 million people and those that want to drive can do so and expect much quicker journey times at a cost if they are driving peak hours.

Don't forget the improved public transport will be operating 24/7 where as the congestion charge only operates in the flow of the peak traffic and in rush hour.

If you think there is not a problem go to Bonsall Street in Hulme, look over Princess Road at 5:30pm and all you can see is bumper to bumper brake lights!.

 

[C.J.Couriers Professional]

I can't see anybody choosing the bus instead of their car just because the public transport network has developed. I would rather say that is more likely that rising costs of keeping car on the road (car tax, fuel, insurance) will make some people to consider choosing bus or train instead.

I can't see congestion charge to improve traffic situation in Manchester at all, not mentioning the proposition of fast lanes for cars with more than driver inside, that supposed to promote car sharing.

Probably it would improve situation for people who already use public transport but it will make a lot of businesses situation much harder. From our point of view as a specialised courier company, it could be an excellent opportunity to offer a service for those, who want to cut congestion charge costs.

 

[Duke Fame]

Why would the government goto to all that effort? They make more money from cars than they do from public transport. The government must think there is a problem otherwiswe they would not go to all that trouble!!.

This is local govt and when it comes to getting fundng so that local councillors can play at big projects, local councillors will jump at the chance no matter how beneficial or otherwise it is. Furthermore, if Sir Howard Bernstein of Richard Leese (the town clerk) can get his photo next to a shiny tram, all the better. The problem of course is the loan they have to take out will ulitimately cripple the council tax payer because the sums do not add up.

The point of this congestion charge is when all the new transport is funded there will be much better public transport for Manchester's 2.5 million people and those that want to drive can do so and expect much quicker journey times at a cost if they are driving peak hours.

Well, if you charge every employer an additional £2300 pa per employee, it will reduce the number of people coming into town to work by the very fact there will be less jobs, it's not good for the economy.

Don't forget the improved public transport will be operating 24/7 where as the congestion charge only operates in the flow of the peak traffic and in rush hour.

Improvements to PT can go ahead and have been going on without the need for the local council to borrow a huge sum of money to invest in one go. Big one off investment does not work well, better to invest as needs evolve.

If you think there is not a problem go to Bonsall Street in Hulme, look over Princess Road at 5:30pm and all you can see is bumper to bumper brake lights!.

As I said, car numbers have fallen, PT usage has gone up, the only reason congestion has gone up is because local govermnment has managed traffic in order to create congestion in order to fulfill their own political agenda.

 

[TotallySport]

Luckily our lease runs out the year before the congestion charge comes in, and we are already thinking about moving.


I live on one side and our unit is on the other, so I would have to pay, and also my suppliers so I cannot see them liking that.

I wouldn't like to be the trafford center, asda or the NEW 31 million pound ski slope that is just inside the zone.

 

[C.J.Couriers Professional]

Luckily our lease runs out the year before the congestion charge comes in, and we are already thinking about moving.


I live on one side and our unit is on the other, so I would have to pay, and also my suppliers so I cannot see them liking that.

I wouldn't like to be the trafford center, asda or the NEW 31 million pound ski slope that is just inside the zone.

Do you think that your suppliers would like to use external company who would offer them a delivery service operating inside the zone?

I don't think this will affect Asda or Trafford Centre much, they will always find way around it. It will be problem for smaller companies who trade inside the zone and rely on daily deliveries. As I can imagine they will have to arrange their deliveries around the congestion hours or just find some company who will take care about it for them.

 

[JoyDivision]

Can I remind people that is only operational in a very few hours a day! Basically people driving into Manchester city centre at 8:00am in the morning.

It won't affect my business at all, or my dads. At worst we just won't drive to jobs during the hours it is in operation at best it will stop all the lazy parents driving their kids to school when they live quarter a mile away!

 

[TotallySport]

Do you think that your suppliers would like to use external company who would offer them a delivery service operating inside the zone?

Some of our suppliers use couriers, others have there own drivers.

The Trafford Centre is actively campaigning against the charge, the chill factore are a bit pissed they built where they did and were not informed.

It won't affect my business at all, or my dads. At worst we just won't drive to jobs during the hours it is in operation at best it will stop all the lazy parents driving their kids to school when they live quarter a mile away!

It will affect couriers, so prices will go up.

I don't see why I should be encouraged by financial penalty to drive to and from work at certain hours, I understand the busy times and I am happy to put up with queues without tuting or complaining.

 

[JoyDivision]

Because rather than spend 35-40 minutes stuck in traffic you could spend 10 minutes on a train or tram and save a lot of time.

 

[TIF spokesperson]

To clarify, the proposed congestion charge would only operate going in to Manchester between 7am and 9.30am and going out again between 4pm and 6.30pm, Monday to Friday. There would not be a charge between these times, or in the opposite directions, or at weekends or on bank holidays. For all the official details of the Transport Innovation Fund bid, including the scale of public transport improvements on offer and exactly how the proposed congestion charge would operate, log on to the gmfuturetransport website.

 

[C.J.Couriers Professional]

To clarify, the proposed congestion charge would only operate going in to Manchester between 7am and 9.30am and going out again between 4pm and 6.30pm, Monday to Friday. There would not be a charge between these times, or in the opposite directions, or at weekends or on bank holidays. For all the official details of the Transport Innovation Fund bid, including the scale of public transport improvements on offer and exactly how the proposed congestion charge would operate, log on to the gmfuturetransport website.

Of course it is only between certain hours, but did you think about all the deliveries like guaranteed before 09:00 or 10:00 next day? They haven't got a choice and they will have to pay congestion charge, so guess who will cover additional costs? Companies like DHL, Parcelforce and many many small ones haven't got a choice, they can't avoid entering city centre in these hours because they have got to keep promises given to customers.

 

[Duke Fame]

To clarify, the proposed congestion charge would only operate going in to Manchester between 7am and 9.30am and going out again between 4pm and 6.30pm, Monday to Friday. There would not be a charge between these times, or in the opposite directions, or at weekends or on bank holidays. For all the official details of the Transport Innovation Fund bid, including the scale of public transport improvements on offer and exactly how the proposed congestion charge would operate, log on to the gmfuturetransport website.

I know that's what is published in the propaganda BUT the figures on this basis do not add up. Based on the current number of cars entering the zones, the revenues needed to pay back the interest never mind the repayments of the principle loan will simply not be achieved with the 'charging windows' suggested by TIF. In actual fact, to achieve these revenues the number of cars will have to increase on the current figures, so TIF are actually budgeting for more cars not less.

Of course, if business has to pay more to employ people within zone they will move elsewhere so , congestion will fall but unemployment will also go up. Richard Leese tries to lead us to believe that this migration is good in that all the companies migrating out of the charge zones will move to the likes of Oldham, Rochdale and other less prosperous areas. Of course this argument sounds better than saying they'll al move to Wilmslow or Alderley edge but companies relocating are as likely to move to Dusseldorf, Warsaw, Guangou and Hanoi then stay within the UK let alone Greater Manchester.


We should remember the two people behind the bid are the town clerk, Richard Leese and Howard Bernstein. Richard Leese said a few years ago that a congestion charge in Manchester would have a “devastating effect on the economy [of Manchester]” and Bernstein said to Ken Livingstone that Manchester would adopt a CC “over his dead body”. They have changed their view all of a sudden, I’m not accusing them of corruption but why the sea change of opinion. They certainly get cushy appointments on various boards and committees promoting the TIF bid and I’d not be surprised if some of the £600Million allocated to administrating the scheme ends up with these chaps on the payroll.

 

[tlewis]

I don't see why I should be encouraged by financial penalty to drive to and from work at certain hours, I understand the busy times and I am happy to put up with queues without tuting or complaining.

Exactly, drivers know what traffic to expect, they're happy to put up with it, they plan their time around it. Why should the local government be forcing them off the roads? If ever driving is more inconvenient than public transport they'll make the switch on their own accord.

To clarify, the proposed congestion charge would only operate going in to Manchester between 7am and 9.30am and going out again between 4pm and 6.30pm, Monday to Friday. There would not be a charge between these times, or in the opposite directions, or at weekends or on bank holidays.

Once the system is in place it will be too easy for them to extend the charging times (and zones).

 

[Duke Fame]

To clarify, the proposed congestion charge would only operate going in to Manchester between 7am and 9.30am and going out again between 4pm and 6.30pm, Monday to Friday. There would not be a charge between these times, or in the opposite directions, or at weekends or on bank holidays. For all the official details of the Transport Innovation Fund bid, including the scale of public transport improvements on offer and exactly how the proposed congestion charge would operate, log on to the gmfuturetransport website.

FUnny how TIF spokepeople turn up on any forum discussing the Congestion charge by posting an inane c&p point from the congestion propaganda trying to blackmail people into accepting their proposals.

The great thing is, that despite the salaried people who are tasked with searching forums to nip opposition to their plans in the bud (basically being paid to fool the public) it is apparant that these plans ill be rejected.

You'll note that TIF spokesperson will NEVE get into a debate on the subject, simply spout a preparedpiece of propaganda lifted dtraight out of the brochures we've all been sent through the door.

 

[Duke Fame]

It won't affect my business at all, or my dads. At worst we just won't drive to jobs during the hours it is in operation at best it will stop all the lazy parents driving their kids to school when they live quarter a mile away!

Yes, I'm with the lazy parents thing, when I was at school, if your paretns picked you up you were considered a mummy's boy. The school run just breeds fat lazy kids because they have fat lazy parents.

I'm not sure if you can say that teh CC will not adversely afect your business. If Businesses close or move away from Manchester, your local clientel will lose their jobs or those whose employers stay, will be £2000 a year's income down sodemand for your services will fall.

 

[spigwell]

Because rather than spend 35-40 minutes stuck in traffic you could spend 10 minutes on a train or tram and save a lot of time.

That's if you are lucky enough to be able to get onto the public transport, most times during peak hours in Manchester it is difficult finding PT with enough space on to even let you on. Trams are reduced to 2 carriages during peak hours and if you have a disability have become a non option.

 

[JoyDivision]

That's if you are lucky enough to be able to get onto the public transport, most times during peak hours in Manchester it is difficult finding PT with enough space on to even let you on. Trams are reduced to 2 carriages during peak hours and if you have a disability have become a non option.

The point is the transport system will be dramatically improved before this charge is introduced.

In all the major cities in Europe public transport is the back bone, you just don't need a car to get around Paris, Barcelona or London where in Manchester it is still very flaky with areas not that well covered, the congestion charge is supposed to change all that.

 

[spigwell]

The point is the transport system will be dramatically improved before this charge is introduced.

In all the major cities in Europe public transport is the back bone, you just don't need a car to get around Paris, Barcelona or London where in Manchester it is still very flaky with areas not that well covered, the congestion charge is supposed to change all that.

Another point could be said that Public transport has been promised to have a massive overhaul and major improvements since the mid 1980's,this has not happened. Paris and London are amongst the worst congested cities in the world and all a congestion charge will do is to push the problem further afield.

I recall about 15 years ago when car tax went up in price, the promises made at the time was that the extra money raised would be getting put into public transport to improve it, we all know this has not happened. Manchester has one of (if not the) highest number of public transport operators in the UK, yet a lot of people still tend not to use it, that in itself speaks volumes.

The revenue lost through parking etc if CC were in force would only mean one thing, The local authorities would have to get revenue from other sources, that would mean increased poll tax and higher congestion charges, the London price has already risen.

Gary

 

[Duke Fame]

Another point could be said that Public transport has been promised to have a massive overhaul and major improvements since the mid 1980's,this has not happened. Paris and London are amongst the worst congested cities in the world and all a congestion charge will do is to push the problem further afield.

I recall about 15 years ago when car tax went up in price, the promises made at the time was that the extra money raised would be getting put into public transport to improve it, we all know this has not happened. Manchester has one of (if not the) highest number of public transport operators in the UK, yet a lot of people still tend not to use it, that in itself speaks volumes.

The revenue lost through parking etc if CC were in force would only mean one thing, The local authorities would have to get revenue from other sources, that would mean increased poll tax and higher congestion charges, the London price has already risen.

Gary

The problems with the CC is that the whole schme is based on borrowing billions of pounds and paying it back with the proceeds of the CC. To achieve the revenue levels they predict, they actually need more many more cars entering the charge zone than they have right now. The increase needed is almost impossible given that the promise is that only peak hours will be charged.

If you look through the proposals you find huge amounts of money being spent on new public sector / quango jobs which are doing nothing to actually improve transport. You can also take a guess at who is going to benefit from these well paid non-jobs? Richard Leese and Bernstein are leading the charge and both (on top of there already well-paid jobs at the expense of the public purse) have already got their nose in the trough of the money pit with seats on various TIF/GMPTE comittees and boards. Both men have refused to say they are not personlly gaining from the proposal and IMHO is stinks.

 

[noidea]

Just a way of making money.

Go to most cities and towns in the UK you will notice that its usually public transport (i.e. buses) that create most the congestion.

 

[JoyDivision]

And what do you think would happen if they weren;t there? All my neighbours all have cars, they all get the bus to town as its so much easier. The buses are every 5 minutes and usualy seat between 80 and 120 people, they are usualy half full so that is between 40 and 60 people being transported every 5 minutes between my suburb and the city centre. Imagine if all these people had to use cars instead?

 

[Duke Fame]

And what do you think would happen if they weren;t there? All my neighbours all have cars, they all get the bus to town as its so much easier. The buses are every 5 minutes and usualy seat between 80 and 120 people, they are usualy half full so that is between 40 and 60 people being transported every 5 minutes between my suburb and the city centre. Imagine if all these people had to use cars instead?

You've answered the whole problem TIF in Manchester is trying to suggest needs 3bn to solve. if you are going to somewhere which takes one bus or train. if you need to connect and go elsewhere you take a car. Because of that, PT usage has gone up 1/3 car usage dropped 7% since 2000 meaning the trend is already in the right direction with no need to risk council tax payers cash and without the destruction of the local economy

 

[noidea]

That's what happen with cities when you build them to have a "centre" and then build from that. Ideally in a perfect world you need dual carriageways instead of single roads, and motorways running through them instead of dual carriageways...

It is actually better for trains if the places are more congested.

But deep down cars is irrelevant - if everyone in Manchester gave up their vehicles and walked, the pavements would become congested: do we then start taxing people for walking? I suggest breathing tax next...

Suggestions for ending congestion? Birth control...

 

[TotallySport]

The congestion charge will not stop parents taking their kids to school in the car, their are very few people living on one side of the divide with a school on the other. Their are 5 parents on our road all drive their kids 250 meters to school the congestion charge will not help the situation, infact it is more likely the parents that do genuinly need the car to take their kids to school will be penalised.

I would happily use public transport but it doesn't run to my scedual which is the problem.

I live in Urmston and work in stretford, there is no tram and no train, If i want to go by train I would have to go to picadilly and then back along to stretford, it would be quicker to walk. Ther tram starts in stretford as far as we are concerned, so we would have to drive to the station and low and behold we would have to drive through the charge area.

The buses are expensive for the service you receive, they run every half hour, I have to sit and wait for them and sit and wait to be picked up. With a car I get in it when I want and go, I don't have to sit next to someone playing their phone music so i can hear it, or the old lady tuting because I am sat in a seat and she wanted.

I have been in manchester for 7 years and I have never seen a full bus, yet driving around are some of the biggest buses money can buy which are empty but burning desiel at a rate of nots far beyond any car. why are they not running more buses which are smaller and cleaner?

Since we subsidies farmers so much who only feed the super markets, why are we not subsidising the public transport? if it was 50p to the end of the line I would happily go on the business when I could, but nearly £3 to do a 10 minute drive and the same in reverse isn't that appealing.

 

[graemepirie]

Congestion charges are nothing more than taxes.

Just think through the implications of a congestion charge:

1. Does anyone choose to sit in congestion? No, they have no choice.
2. Who pays to set up and operate the system? - The motorists paying the charge.
3. How could it work? ONLY by being so expensive it actually priced people off the roads. So the roads become the property of the rich, with the less well off let standing at bus stops in the rain.
4. IF it did work, revenus would go down, so the cost would have to go up to pay for the administration.
5. Why is the opposite happening? Roads are being narrowed, more and more traffic lights (why can't we turn left on red?), why are roadworks often unmanned? Because no-one cares about congestion - just tax.
6. Why is it that of £50B collected annually from the motorist, less than £10B is actually spent on transport?

The real plan is to track every car by satelite and send us all a monthly bill, do YOU want the state to track your movements? It's true - trials are in the pipeline.

Peter Roberts, author of the biggest ever petition to stop this madness is now CEO of the Drivers Alliance http://www.driversalliance.org.uk

 

[spigwell]

Congestion charges are nothing more than taxes.

Just think through the implications of a congestion charge:

5. Why is the opposite happening? Roads are being narrowed, more and more traffic lights (why can't we turn left on red?),

Probably because cars turning or coming from the right would crash into us.

 

[graemepirie]

Probably because cars turning or coming from the right would crash into us.

Ok I should have put "when safe to do so". It works fine in the US.

 

[noidea]

Ok I should have put "when safe to do so". It works fine in the US.

I have seen enough US crash videos at crossroads...

 

[noidea]

The congestion charge will not stop parents taking their kids to school in the car, their are very few people living on one side of the divide with a school on the other. Their are 5 parents on our road all drive their kids 250 meters to school the congestion charge will not help the situation, infact it is more likely the parents that do genuinly need the car to take their kids to school will be penalised.

I would happily use public transport but it doesn't run to my scedual which is the problem.

I live in Urmston and work in stretford, there is no tram and no train, If i want to go by train I would have to go to picadilly and then back along to stretford, it would be quicker to walk. Ther tram starts in stretford as far as we are concerned, so we would have to drive to the station and low and behold we would have to drive through the charge area.

The buses are expensive for the service you receive, they run every half hour, I have to sit and wait for them and sit and wait to be picked up. With a car I get in it when I want and go, I don't have to sit next to someone playing their phone music so i can hear it, or the old lady tuting because I am sat in a seat and she wanted.

I have been in manchester for 7 years and I have never seen a full bus, yet driving around are some of the biggest buses money can buy which are empty but burning desiel at a rate of nots far beyond any car. why are they not running more buses which are smaller and cleaner?

Since we subsidies farmers so much who only feed the super markets, why are we not subsidising the public transport? if it was 50p to the end of the line I would happily go on the business when I could, but nearly £3 to do a 10 minute drive and the same in reverse isn't that appealing.

But why do children have to be taken to school by car?

Certain ages I agree with going by car maybe, other factors such as safety, but I walked about a mile and a half to and from secondary school everyday... so why does everyone else need a lift to and from school? Walking gives exercise.

I think most of the time it is paranoid parents dropping their children off not to skip school - but don't you think they will just skip school 5 minutes after you have driven off?

 

[noidea]

Congestion charges are nothing more than taxes.

Just think through the implications of a congestion charge:

1. Does anyone choose to sit in congestion? No, they have no choice.
2. Who pays to set up and operate the system? - The motorists paying the charge.
3. How could it work? ONLY by being so expensive it actually priced people off the roads. So the roads become the property of the rich, with the less well off let standing at bus stops in the rain.
4. IF it did work, revenus would go down, so the cost would have to go up to pay for the administration.
5. Why is the opposite happening? Roads are being narrowed, more and more traffic lights (why can't we turn left on red?), why are roadworks often unmanned? Because no-one cares about congestion - just tax.
6. Why is it that of £50B collected annually from the motorist, less than £10B is actually spent on transport?

The real plan is to track every car by satelite and send us all a monthly bill, do YOU want the state to track your movements? It's true - trials are in the pipeline.

Peter Roberts, author of the biggest ever petition to stop this madness is now CEO of the Drivers Alliance http://www.driversalliance.org.uk

The high fuel prices have allowed for a 12% decrease in cars on the road - it is claimed.

There is also news report that in 50 years we will have the largest population in Europe. Isn't it time to stop immigrants coming in?

 

[TotallySport]

But why do children have to be taken to school by car?

Certain ages I agree with going by car maybe, other factors such as safety, but I walked about a mile and a half to and from secondary school everyday... so why does everyone else need a lift to and from school? Walking gives exercise.

I think most of the time it is paranoid parents dropping their children off not to skip school - but don't you think they will just skip school 5 minutes after you have driven off?

I wasn't saying I agree with people taking their kids to school in the car, i was just stating that saying the congestion charge will change this IMO is an incorrect assesment.

We actively make a point of walking our kids to school, it is less than 15 minutes walk one way. Even when it is raining our kids walk, and either me or my partner walk with them until due to their ages.

The people on the road IMO do it out of lazynes, nothing more.

 

[TotallySport]

There is also news report that in 50 years we will have the largest population in Europe. Isn't it time to stop immigrants coming in?

How does imigration, contribute substancially to polution?

If your stopping people that can legitamatly come into the UK, surely you will also have to stop the Bristish from emigrating? Otherwise its just a little two faced for me.

 

[noidea]

I wasn't saying I agree with kids taking their kids to school in the car, i was just stating that saying the congestion charge will change this IMO is an incorrect assesment.

We actively make a point of walking our kids to school, it is less than 15 minutes walk one way. Even when it is raining our kids walk, and either me or my partner walk with them until due to their ages.

The people on the road IMO do it out of lazynes, nothing more.

I hope kids don't drive other kids to school!!! :O

 

[TotallySport]

lol I guess I better edit that

 

[noidea]

How does imigration, contribute substancially to polution?

If your stopping people that can legitamatly come into the UK, surely you will also have to stop the Bristish from emigrating? Otherwise its just a little two faced for me.

Good points there. Traffic congestion is directly linked to the population...


If we have problems now then when the population has increased a predicted 25% then the country will come to a standstill. Nothing racist in it but I don't think people will be limited to one child, do you? So the other way of the population increase is indeed stopping people coming over here.

As an example, on the news, it was on about Eastern Europeans being exploited. Dreadful, but why can't a country with a great deal of unemployment fill up them kind of jobs?

i saw an advert from the UK border agency and laughed...

About subsidising farmers.... I think that comes from Europe not our government even though we pay to be part of Europe.

 

[TotallySport]

I personally think if the government wanted to it could reduce polusion massively, making companies do x, y, and z would be a start but no it is the consumer that suffers directly.

I mean primark are the only shop I have gone in which have changed their carrier bags to paper, why have the supermarkets not done this? Primark don't charge for them and to be honest I like them, and they are nothing fancy. But this could have been done years ago.

Packaging do we really need all the carp that comes with stuff, but the EU would prefer us to have a straight banana.

People won't work in the UK because the minimum wage doesn't exceed benefits, why work when you can do nothing and get the same money? Plus you get to see your kids grow up and get to play every day, you kids don't get spoilt. Fair enough you don't progress but some people are happy not to.

I like the new ideas where the unemployed have to work for the benefits and think it should be introduced asap.

Get rid of all the cwangos (sorry if it spelt wrong) and the government will make substancial savings.

The other thing is, when your in the army the goverment expects you to live off the wage you get at that job and you might get extra consetions, but I doubt you get an allowance to buy a second home and furnish it and live in it, that the person keeps ad passes onto their kids. Why are these not the property of the government that they can profit from?

It's one rule for one and another for everyone else, the same goes for grants and funding, the NHS and other aspects of life.

 

[TotallySport]

Plus it's Ok about the population increasing because we will be able to live on Mars or the Moon soon.

 

[noidea]

Plus it's Ok about the population increasing because we will be able to live on Mars or the Moon soon.

What give you that idea? The moon has a great local cheese source.... lol