Long trip expenses

snowcoconut

Free Member
Sep 26, 2012
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Hi everyone,

I run a business in the UK which generated a profit for the tax year 2016/1017.
On the side I'm trying to start a photography career and, on the same tax year, I went on a nearly 3 month trip around Asia to work on a photography project and publish and sell a photobook, which I did.
I wanted to ask you if it's totally ok to claim the travel expenses (flight, accommodation, transport) together with the book publishing expenses (printing, isbns) for the photography project as a second separate business and what percentage of them should I claim?
At the moment the expenses would be much higher than the profit as I've only sold a few copies of the book so far.
Thanks.
 
I would guess that you would have to prove to HMRC that it was not a snappers holiday but a dedicated planned photoshoot for the expressed plan of making a book

They might for instance ask to see all the images you took, a professional photographer for instance would have taken a lot of shots of the same object at different settings to chose the final print to be used where a snapper might just take one or two

Just my thoughts
 
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Hi Chris,
Thank you for your reply.
That wouldn't be a problem as I do have all the pics I shot, many of them "repetitive" to then choose the best ones, as you mentioned.
I've been travelling solo and shoot street photography regularly nearly everyday, for the purpose of publishing my first photobook as a kickstart for my career.
Anything else I should consider?
Thanks.
 
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Then its not a separate business. Its akin to a plumber who also moves into electrics.

(Though re-reading your first post, you say that you 'run' a business that generated a profit rather than 'own'. Is that your sole trader business?)
 
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The first profitable business is my own sole trader business.
I'm trying to start a photography career and decided to invest in a trip to shoot the images to publish my first photobook, which could make profit (little) and also give exposure (mainly).
That's why I thought I could treat it as business.
Even if I'm a sole trader, when filling the tax return, shouldn't I report them as 2 separate businesses?
Thanks
 
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Been there, done that. In my case I cleared the arrangements with the taxman first. All he wanted was for me to keep a diary of when I was shooting. In the event he didn't ever ask to see it. I claimed 100% expenses.
 
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That's great atmosbob, thanks a lot.
Do you suggest me to call HMRC now before filing the tax return?
It would be easy for me to produce a diary as the pics have date infos.
Thanks.
 
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I worked with a plumber (some years ago) who decided he wanted to become a film maker.

He produced a full length feature film and spent over £20,000 doing it.

When he tried to claim it as expenses, HMRC said it was a hobby project and rejected his claim.

Check with them first.
 
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hmm - nice idea, I am also planning a business trip this summer, taking my wife and kids to the beach, but its just to be able to have pics to put on my company website, can I claim tax relief for that? Please Mr HMRC, go on... LOL.. It has a travel section... honest...
 
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Thank you for your reply billmccallum1957.
It sounds a bit sad, isn't it?
It's like he hasn't been taken seriously as filmmaker just because he was a plumber?
 
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Highland Spring, thank you for your reply and I appreciate the humour.
On a serious note, I think the situation is a bit different.
I've been working as photographer many years ago then started a different business and kept shooting only personal projects.
I've then decided to (re?)start a photography career/business and produce my first photobook.
I went on a trip to Asia, travelling solo and shooting nearly everyday, came back, self-published the book (registered with an isbn), sold it trough a UK bookshop chain.
 
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If the trip is busines related and your line of trade is photography I don't see why not. I went to Las Vegas back in 2007 to attend an industry trade show called PubCon. It was great staying in a plush hotel and seeing all the sites, but it was deductable because the main purpose of the trip was business and "my fun" was incidental. But it was fun none the less and I remember that and not a word of anything said or done at the conference.
 
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hmm - nice idea, I am also planning a business trip this summer, taking my wife and kids to the beach, but its just to be able to have pics to put on my company website, can I claim tax relief for that? Please Mr HMRC, go on... LOL.. It has a travel section... honest...
Joking apart, someone has to make those beach pictures you see in the holiday brochures.

There is nothing to stop a self-employed person having several sources of income and lumping all the expenses, profits and losses into one set of accounts. There is also no obligation to make a profit.
 
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It's like he hasn't been taken seriously as filmmaker just because he was a plumber?
Films just do not get made for £20k - and HMRC know this! Financing a movie and making a movie are two separate tasks and are done by separate companies, each wearing a different hat. A bit like being your own lawyer - a person financing their own movie, often has a fool for a backer!
The important thing is to ensure that HMRC recognise the second business,
Your business expenses have to be within the scope of your classification. Had he made plumbing instruction videos for YouTube, they would have probably allowed some minor expenses (but obviously not £20,000).

It is the £20k figure that tells one that HMRC were right - it's a hobby! You can make a movie for no money whatsoever, indeed dozens and dozens of famous and successful movie franchises (e.g. James Bond, Mission Impossible) require no backing and no investors, despite having $150m-plus budgets, as the seed-money comes from product placement, subsidies and tax write-offs. A good movie earns its money by making a loss ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_accounting ) which is why movie makers are so keen to get actors and directors to take a profit-share. That way, they don't have to pay them!

If someone rocks-up and says that he has $X-millions in backing from Viacom/Amazon/Netflix/whatever, we can talk. If someone says that he has absolutely no money whatsoever and no prospect of getting any, but he has a really hot property (killer script, known franchise, or signed 'name') then we can really talk! That's money on the hoof!

But if someone says that they are going to make a movie for £20,000, that is £20,000 they will never see again.
 
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Films just do not get made for £20k - and HMRC know this! Financing a movie and making a movie are two separate tasks and are done by separate companies, each wearing a different hat. A bit like being your own lawyer - a person financing their own movie, often has a fool for a backer!

Dear Byre

I think you will find that Tony Richardson, Karel Reiss, and many others started by making films for under £20,000. The cameraman on The Zorro films and several of the Bonds, Phil Meheux, started off making films with friends and student actors.

If the plumber had managed to get shown at a major film festival and got a distribution deal the story would have been different.
 
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I think you will find that Tony Richardson, Karel Reiss, and many others started by making films for under £20,000. The cameraman on The Zorro films and several of the Bonds, Phil Meheux, started off making films with friends and student actors.
What they did was to make movies for nothing - which, as I said, is perfectly possible. Werner Herzog stole his first 35mm camera and several cans of film. Others beg or borrow. And nobody pays student actors anything!
If the plumber had managed to get shown at a major film festival and got a distribution deal the story would have been different.
And that is the BIG IF!

As an unknown movie maker, you have to PAY for distribution, the theatre gets to keep all the box-office and you have to do the small, grotty festivals BEFORE you get to do anything important - and festivals nowadays cost real money! Distribution is like getting your widgets into major supermarkets - you hope and pray that never happens, because it can kill you!

If you happen to have £20k that is burning a hole in your pocket and you think that you are the next Quentin Tarantino, the first thing you have to do is to learn how to make movies. Not just the artistic side (though that is hard enough as it is and takes many years) but the technical side. Just the audio alone can make the layman's head spin. EBU standards. 5.1, 7.1, Atmos, DTS-X, dynamic range, all things that have to mean something to the movie maker.

Just reading the tech-sheets of TV play-out centres would have your plumber running for the hills!

But let us assume that our wannabe movie making plumber has got a close buddy that can oversee all the audio post-production tasks for him and that he has another buddy that can lend him an Arri Alexa and a set of lenses, grips, lights, hard-disks cables, microphones, etc. and he has access to a barn where he can build all his sets and rig lights and he has access to an editing suite and an audio post production suite where he can get all the foleys and ADR done and he has people on hand that can run all that stuff (actually students who are able to do all that and will do it for nothing do exist!) and assuming he has got someone on hand that can write and record a movie score (again, music students can be found under most rocks!)

Having climbed that very large mountain, our plumber has managed to put together a film crew without spending any of his £20k. He can still use that £20k for the one thing that outsiders to the movie industry always forget - Marketing!

Sadly, £20k won't get much, so he is going to have to do funky, off-the-wall, crazy things to get noticed and work social media as hard as he knows how. Any crazy and stupid stunt is legit. Just think of Pink Floyd's inflatable pink pig that mysteriously 'broke free' over Battersea Power Station! Stuff like that and more, much more. He might end up in a police cell for the night, but he will get publicity.

One of the best stunts is to launch a campaign to get his own film banned! Once the BBC has banned something or someone, success is assured!

One final tip for your plumber - make a quirky comedy and never ever go within 100 miles of a gritty urban drama. If someone comes at you with a script that features such lines as "Look out, he's got a knife!" or "Dad, I'm pregnant!" run, don't walk!
 
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