Knowing the mind of God
- Thread starter cjd
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Beachcomber
The real question is this - it is obvious in the scenario outlined that god would not intervene - whereas he has apparently taken direct action in the past (wrath of god stories ad infinutim) and intervened in the affairs of man many times in the past.
So what train of thought, what kind of thinking could lead a deity to allow someone to be raped for fear of interfering with free will but condemn an entire species for the rest of time for eating an apple?
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Parthelan
And where in the account of genesis does it say it was an apple???
Orthodoxy, being the fullness of truth of course
doesnt buy into all that catholic and then reformation and then counter-reformation, and then make-up-your-own-religion-in-your-bedroom nonesense about us all being guilty of original sin No, we live with the consequences of that sin, but not the guilt of the sin itself. So we're not condenmed - necessarily - as a result of that sin ...... Hence why when catholics and others were tying themselves up in knots over whether unbaptised babies went to heaven or hell or some made up limbo place, this was never an issue for Orthodoxy.
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Parthelan
I'm not saying that at all.
Studies like these show prayer has no effect what so ever, while other research shows a positive effect.
fMri research by brillant scholars and researchers such as Kapogiannis has shown conclusively that the areas of the brain activated when someone talks to God, uses the hardwired circuits of the brain used for social cognition -
- in other words, religious beliefs, according to him, are rooted in the ''evolved adaptive mechanisms'' of the brain, rather than existing as a seperate system of circuitry... in other other words, when we talk to God, we're talking to ourselves Other works have shown God's values and morality and views on things are very suspiciously similar to our own
It's very interesting stuff, but no more proves God doesnt answer prayers any more than it proves God doesnt exist.....
In other words, it cant be shown - to the person of faith, they had their prayer answered, to the skeptic, it was happenstance.
I once heard someone say, when challenged on the authenticity of somewhere - Lourdes I think - for miracle cures, that the real grace people got when they went there, wasnt the miracle cure of their terminal illness, but the grace to accept death, and to be at peace with themselves..... it was very moving to hear them ... now, whether some blogspot area of the brain kicked in, or whether they received some form of Grace or an answer to a prayer... who knows ... but they were at peace within themselves ....
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- Original Poster
- #15,406
Yes, well that's all very interesting and I agree that God is in the mind and nowhere else.
However, that wasn't the question. The argument is about God's interventions or lack of them. Traditionally, when asked why god doesn't intervene we get all sorts of word and logic torturing around the concept of free will. You posed the problem of when he should intervene - sometimes, always or never. The inference is that God should rarely if ever intervene.
The problem with that response is that you then have to accept that prayer doesn't and can't work because God can't and won't answer. That's not the what the majority of believers believe.
The fact that there may be some placebo effect of prayer is interesting but beside the point.
However, that wasn't the question. The argument is about God's interventions or lack of them. Traditionally, when asked why god doesn't intervene we get all sorts of word and logic torturing around the concept of free will. You posed the problem of when he should intervene - sometimes, always or never. The inference is that God should rarely if ever intervene.
The problem with that response is that you then have to accept that prayer doesn't and can't work because God can't and won't answer. That's not the what the majority of believers believe.
The fact that there may be some placebo effect of prayer is interesting but beside the point.
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GOD <> DOG DOG<>GOD
I would never want to be called a dog as a man should not call a woman a dog, this is hurtful and doesn not assist with curing emotions when someone is upset. Then you have *****, again another word for a female dog, and more to the point very personal.
Regardless of who, where or how a woman acts, she should not be aqainted to an animal.
Who creates these crude words?
I'm a gentleman, call me a dog >>>> YES BAN me at this point. I will find you are **** your business up......DOGS ....
Thnaks for taking all the posts off this board. I won;t go down the route that youn want me to, more walk away from this computer, make you think about the words that you have used to wipe out the human races and the need to continue... I hope you appologise to the woman, no wonder the woman on the earth want to be together away from slander and hurtful words.
I would never want to be called a dog as a man should not call a woman a dog, this is hurtful and doesn not assist with curing emotions when someone is upset. Then you have *****, again another word for a female dog, and more to the point very personal.
Regardless of who, where or how a woman acts, she should not be aqainted to an animal.
Who creates these crude words?
I'm a gentleman, call me a dog >>>> YES BAN me at this point. I will find you are **** your business up......DOGS ....
Thnaks for taking all the posts off this board. I won;t go down the route that youn want me to, more walk away from this computer, make you think about the words that you have used to wipe out the human races and the need to continue... I hope you appologise to the woman, no wonder the woman on the earth want to be together away from slander and hurtful words.
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- Original Poster
- #15,411
Doesn't it bother you at all that you now have natural answers to lots of questions that religion was designed to answer (such as evil and suffering, origins of life etc) but only have "oi vey, it's a mystery" answers for the questions that are left? Such as this free will versus intervention and prayer nonsense.
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- Original Poster
- #15,412
The Darwinian tree of life has now been confirmed using rRNA molecular sequencing. The link below is a fabulous piece of science/art showing how everything is related to everything else. You'll find us at 10 o-clock on the circle.
http://www.zo.utexas.edu/faculty/antisense/DownloadfilesToL.html
I'd love to show the image itself here because it's mind blowing, but it's also huge - I haven't found a way of allowing it to scale on the forum page.
http://www.zo.utexas.edu/faculty/antisense/DownloadfilesToL.html
I'd love to show the image itself here because it's mind blowing, but it's also huge - I haven't found a way of allowing it to scale on the forum page.
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God exists in our minds and therefore those who found god and taught through his values should be the ones that guide other through to his honesty. Finances come after God in all parallels this rules out power and addiction. God will see you through in time and in sequence of human biological order. Who needs what, where and when.
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Parthelan
Absolutely not.
I have long ago managed to control my cognative disonance in such a way as to allow me to fully engage with, fully contribe to, and fully gain from, the spiritual and practical life of a community of people brought together by faith.
You should be able to tell from my answers I dont and have never subscribed to the idea that non religious people cannot or dont in some way live full, awesome, good lives, that homosexuals should not enjoy the fullness of the law and union as others do, that the Bible is literally true, that there is only one way to get to heaven and all the other religious claptrap that cultists and evangelical fundamentalists spout.... .....
It should also be obvious I am an avid supported of science and am fascinated and enthralled at every new discovery, be it in biology, anthropology, cosmology... whatever .... I just love the fact we are finding out more and more every day and that knowledge is being used for the betterment of mankind.
But my faith has brought me community, security, comfort and support throughout my long happy life. In times of need, and there was plenty believe you me, I KNEW we would be well taken care of and supported, because of the common bond of faith and community we share.
Abroad, and in trouble, all we every had to do was find the local Orthodox community, and we were sorted. Our faith means we can go to any country in the world, and in 5 minutes be surrounded by people we have a common bond with.
We've never indoctrinated our children - we brought them up in the faith, but to question everything and come to their own conclusions - they always knew they could find their own path and we would support them whatever ... the upshot is one is an avowed atheist, the rest, apart from the youngest two, come to Divine Liturgy with us when theyre home, but it's just to catch up with old friends. They could best be described as Deists, if anything at all. Of the youngest two - one is definately on her way to atheism with a capital A and the other ... hmm ... not sure yet, but she most certainly doesnt believe in an all knowing all caring God, after what happened to her best friend. They know the Bible is not the only source for any kind of decent morality, and have been brought up how to think critically on issues and form balanced, fair, supportable conclusions they, and the society they have to live in, can live by.
One of the many good things about the community they grew up in, was the strengthening of family values. They loved and still love their community, and see it as an extension of our family. This in turn strengthens the family bonds and ties we share between us. With having such a large family, that to us has always been so important.
Maaybe it's because Im a very sociable, group person, that this kind of community, and community activity appeals to me.
Can it only ever be achieved this way - of course not. But unfortunately, at this present time, non religious people are not stepping up to the plate to fill the void in community that something like my Orthodox community provides.
That's just the way it is, where I am, and at this present time. That will almost certainly change over time. I am quite pleased that no significant inroads into the community I love will happen in my lifetime. But it will happen. Of that Im sure.
So, Im a happy bunny really.
The scientific answers to the questions man has always sought are indeed an awesome testament to mans brillance, but theyre not something that bothers me at all. I welcome them.
It's just that scientific papers dont give me that spiritual high all those smells, bells and music does.
To paraphrase some english writer who's name eludes me right now, the only church I could not, not belong to, is the Orthodox Church
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If I were to be buried tomorrow and then my body lay there and eventually all my body went back to the earth, to the soil of the land and then trees grew from my body within the soil, then a tree grew exactly where I was buried, then someone chopped it down and counted the rings would that represent my age?
Some clown has been going around my town (NOT MY TRUE SELF) and telling people that they don;t die. CLOWNS.
Some clown has been going around my town (NOT MY TRUE SELF) and telling people that they don;t die. CLOWNS.
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- Original Poster
- #15,424
Oh yes you do. If you didn't know, there would be no cognitive dissonance. You have, however, accommodated and decided not to poke at the rusty areas too much just in case it all collapses in a heap of dust.
But whatever, floats your boat I suppose....... Chanting is harmless enough, at least you're not flying into tall buildings or campaigning against blood transfusions.
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J
josor
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Beachcomber
Little Barry came into the kitchen where his mother was cooking dinner.
His birthday was coming up and he thought this was a good time to tell his mother what he wanted: 'Mum, I want a bike for my birthday.'
Little Barry was a bit of a troublemaker. He had got into trouble at school and at home. Barry's mother asked him if he thought he deserved to get a bike for his birthday. Little Barry, of course, thought he did.
Barry's mother, being a Christian woman, wanted him to reflect on his behaviour over the last year, and write a letter to God, and tell him why he deserved a bike for his birthday.
Little Barry stomped up the steps to his room and sat down to write God a letter.
LETTER 1:
Dear God,
I have been a very good boy this year and I would like a bike for my birthday. I want a red one.
Your friend, Barry.
Barry knew this wasn't true. He had not been a very good boy this year, so he tore up the letter and started again.
LETTER 2:
Dear God,
This is your friend Barry. I have been a pretty good boy this year, and I would like a red bike for my birthday.
Thank you,
Barry.
Barry knew this wasn't true either. He tore up the letter and started again.
LETTER 3:
Dear God,
I have been an OK boy this year and I would really like a red bike for my birthday.
Your friend,
Barry.
Barry knew he could not send this letter to God either. Barry was very upset. He went downstairs and told his mother he wanted to go to church.
Barry's mother thought her plan had worked because Barry looked very sad. 'Just be home in time for dinner,' his mother said. Barry walked down the street to the church and up to the altar.
He looked around to see if anyone was there. He picked up a statue of the Virgin Mary. He slipped it under his shirt and ran out of the church, down the street, into his house, and up to his room. He shut the door to his room and sat down with a piece of paper and a pen.
Barry began to write his letter to God.
LETTER 4:
I'VE GOT YOUR MUM.
IF YOU WANT TO SEE HER AGAIN, SEND THE BIKE!!!
His birthday was coming up and he thought this was a good time to tell his mother what he wanted: 'Mum, I want a bike for my birthday.'
Little Barry was a bit of a troublemaker. He had got into trouble at school and at home. Barry's mother asked him if he thought he deserved to get a bike for his birthday. Little Barry, of course, thought he did.
Barry's mother, being a Christian woman, wanted him to reflect on his behaviour over the last year, and write a letter to God, and tell him why he deserved a bike for his birthday.
Little Barry stomped up the steps to his room and sat down to write God a letter.
LETTER 1:
Dear God,
I have been a very good boy this year and I would like a bike for my birthday. I want a red one.
Your friend, Barry.
Barry knew this wasn't true. He had not been a very good boy this year, so he tore up the letter and started again.
LETTER 2:
Dear God,
This is your friend Barry. I have been a pretty good boy this year, and I would like a red bike for my birthday.
Thank you,
Barry.
Barry knew this wasn't true either. He tore up the letter and started again.
LETTER 3:
Dear God,
I have been an OK boy this year and I would really like a red bike for my birthday.
Your friend,
Barry.
Barry knew he could not send this letter to God either. Barry was very upset. He went downstairs and told his mother he wanted to go to church.
Barry's mother thought her plan had worked because Barry looked very sad. 'Just be home in time for dinner,' his mother said. Barry walked down the street to the church and up to the altar.
He looked around to see if anyone was there. He picked up a statue of the Virgin Mary. He slipped it under his shirt and ran out of the church, down the street, into his house, and up to his room. He shut the door to his room and sat down with a piece of paper and a pen.
Barry began to write his letter to God.
LETTER 4:
I'VE GOT YOUR MUM.
IF YOU WANT TO SEE HER AGAIN, SEND THE BIKE!!!
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Power_devolution
Of course there is not link from a materialist position. If you were a Christian you would definetely see a link.
Consider why do materialists get emotional about God? He does not exist. He is a unicorn. Why not blast flat earth believers or Wiccans? Materialist fear believers. I mean really, why waste so much energy about something you do not understand, have no knoweldge of and assume is baseless and nonesensical. It is irrational.
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Beachcomber
Oh dear.
It would appear that to be assumptive, arrogant and dismissive is fine in the eyes of god?
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- Original Poster
- #15,430
Because believers don't keep their beliefs to themselves - they make their own laws that allows them to rape children and be protected, they brainwash people into accepting dangerous medical practices, they have non-elected leaders in our parliaments preserving discriminatory and objectionable laws, they indoctrinate our children in state funded schools, they blow up buses, trains, aeroplanes and buildings and they have ignorant, superstitious ideas that have no place in a modern world.
Irrational?
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Power_devolution
Well finally a sensible argument from a materialist. Congratulations.
To start since you do not believe in good or evil why do you think you know anything about how evil could be eliminated?
We have free will because we are composed of choice. It is a hard concept to grasp but if only as a mental exercise assume there is a God and He is all-powerful and so Created everything from choice, literally and figuratively. Meaning He creates from choice because He can do what He pleases and He created from choice using choice as a medium of Creation.
So everything has choice because everything is choice. If it makes it easier to comprehend think of choice as energy and Natural Law as a choice repeatedly made.
So we have choice. We can choose. This is what we are. So how do you eliminate the ability to choose wrongly without eliminating the ability to choose? The structure of existence is choice. Evil is a corruption of the substance of the universe.
To get to the idea that there are two right choices ... according to what criteria? If two options are indistinguishable they are not a choice ... they are options akin to two breakfast cereals or grains of sand. Choices require CHOICE. Ie there has to be something to compare with and compete with the choice. In other words something of value has to be given up to get what you value more. Choice has structure and this takes the form of an economic transaction.
Reason tells us we should make the choice with the most value for us. If there is no greater value involved in the choice it is just a preference and not a choice in the technical understanding of the term.
So choices have a moral component as well as the rational one of picking the choice with the greater value. I could go on but hopefully you get the idea. Search google for Devolution Technolgies if you are interested in rationality and how to improve your capacity to reason.
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Power_devolution
Another example of how little you understand Christians. I believe in God because I have no faith in myself. I am a failure, weak, stupid and vain. I have no power to change or will to do what is right. I am sinful, evil and ungrateful. I deserve nothing but annilation. I have no hope except that given to me by Jesus.
So nothing I am is fine in the eyes of God. I am a total and complete failure and undeserving of anything but His hate, contempt and denial. Yet, He chooses to forgive and save me. Simply because I believe in Him. So there you have it.
The difference between Christianity and all religions including athiesm is that we know we are helpless and undeserving. Every other group on the planet believe that somehow they deserve salvation and are personally worth something. So, ultimately there are only two choices, Jesus and human ingenuity.
Good luck
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Power_devolution
I sympathize with you. People are confusing. There are two major problems we all face. Christianity is a self-applied moniker. In other words anyone can call themself a Christian regardless of their actual belief. The other is that this enables Christianity to be lumped in with religions which it is not. Athiesm is a religion, JW are a religion. Christianity is a faith but is unique from all other faiths.
The key is Jesus and Scripture. If you do not accept Scripture and Jesus's testament concerning himself you are not saved by your faith so technically not a member of his church and therfore not a true Christian.
The difference is a Christian does nothing to be saved but put his or her faith in Jesus. Every other faith ends up having faith in themselves or a trait or capability they possess - including athiests.
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Power_devolution
You see. You argue with Christians and you haven't the slightest idea who or what they are.
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DCE
Power devolution
Do you believe in the Trinity?
Do you believe in Hell-fire?
Is Jesus a Mediator?
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- Original Poster
- #15,438
What you need to get your head around is that only Christians think Christians are special; and even then they can't agree amongst themselves who a Christian is - but it always includes them of course.
I'm talking about all beliefs and all believers - they're all bonkers and all the same - they have no place in modern society except as private hobbies.
Get over yourself, as you say, you don't matter; so go lead a good life without worrying about whether any particular God loves or hates you.
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Beachcomber
And how have you come to that conclusion?
Or is it another convenient assumption that re-enforces your opinion thus is valid.
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DCE
Well Beachcomber, that not a difficult question to answer.
You have never studied the Bible, to get to know what the truth of God's word is.
Have you?
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