It's not over yet - EU

[john1989]

Oh come on, that's not fair. What is the point in having a whinge if no-one can hear you.

What about a compromise? A separate area of the forum. They could even have their own slide and ball pool.

 

[threenine]

Can't you do it quietly in a corner where nobody can hear you?

No! We could have a referendum on it though. To decide if all British people should only whinge in quiet corners where they can't be heard.

 

[john1989]

No! We could have a referendum on it though. To decide if all British people should only whinge in quiet corners where they can't be heard.

I should warn you that if I don't get the outcome I want, I will cry and stamp my feet until I get the outcome I do want.

 

[Newchodge]

I should warn you that if I don't get the outcome I want, I will cry and stamp my feet until I get the outcome I do want.

That's OK, as long as you do it quietly in a corner where nobody can hear you.

 

[john1989]

That's OK, as long as you do it quietly in a corner where nobody can hear you.

Can I have a ball pool and slide as well?

 

[threenine]

I should warn you that if I don't get the outcome I want, I will cry and stamp my feet until I get the outcome I do want.

Pretty much what Leavers have been doing since 1973

 

[Deleted member 59730]

The political upheavals will go on a long time; possibly until after the next general election. A minority of MPs supported a leave outcome but many of those are in marginal seats where the number of their constituents who are dissatisfied with the result could work to unseat them. The support for UKIP will melt away now that one man, Farage, has got what he wanted. Those voters could swing either way if there are no UKIP candidates to support. There are a lot of other scenarios which will make the future political landscape very rocky.

What will happen to all those leave voters when they find that the campaign was based on lies is another big unknown. Will they be led into the promised land by Boris, who was fired as a journalist at the Times for telling lies?

 

[APW]

I voted out but I did it for MY reasons and not what the government tried to force on us.

Being IN the EU hasn't gotten us anywhere, we are worse off now than in the last decade and with no signs of improving being OUT was the only option for some kind of change, whether good or bad no one will know but remaining IN would only guarantee things will get worse.

Also thinking NI will vote out of the UK just shows that the rest of the UK haven't got a clue about NI and how the people actually feel.

 

[Pish_Pash]

Being IN the EU hasn't gotten us anywhere, we are worse off now than in the last decade and with no signs of improving being OUT was the only option for some kind of change, whether good or bad no one will know but remaining IN would only guarantee things will get worse.

My sentiments entirely, but from the early mood music, it now looks like what we're going to get is "Out lite"....the worst of both worlds.

 

[APW]

My sentiments entirely, but from the early mood music, it now looks like what we're going to get is "Out lite"....the worst of both worlds.

Yes so the media wants us to believe, but British people are more resilient than the politicians and news agency think we are.

Stiff upper lip, Head up and lets get on with it and make it work, thats the only way to upset politicians these days.

Look at cameron, the waste of space lost then just quit (or took his ball home like the child he is) because they think that all British people behave like they do and therefore they don't respect us we are stronger than the nanny state think we are now we have to prove it.

 

[Newchodge]

Yes so the media wants us to believe, but British people are more resilient than the politicians and news agency think we are.

Stiff upper lip, Head up and lets get on with it and make it work, thats the only way to upset politicians these days.

Look at cameron, the waste of space lost then just quit (or took his ball home like the child he is) because they think that all British people behave like they do and therefore they don't respect us we are stronger than the nanny state think we are now we have to prove it.

Part of me agrees with you. There is a song lyric 'I know you're lying, your lips are moving', which I think applies to many politicians these days. Particularly the power hungry ones.

However, how are we going to 'prove it'?

 

[APW]

Part of me agrees with you. There is a song lyric 'I know you're lying, your lips are moving', which I think applies to many politicians these days. Particularly the power hungry ones.

However, how are we going to 'prove it'?

Are they not all power hungry?

Proving it by getting on with it, avoid all the scaremongering and just enjoy your life, buy what you want to buy and go where you want to, people on the news today said they are going to pull out of a house purchase cause they don't know the future....like they knew the future before....

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Being IN the EU hasn't gotten us anywhere, we are worse off now than in the last decade and with no signs of improving being OUT was the only option for some kind of change, whether good or bad no one will know but remaining IN would only guarantee things will get worse.

Why do you blame the EU for that?

The entire world went through the 2008 financial crisis, and years of austerity by our current Government was an attempt to close the deficit gap cause by that crisis and the overspending of the previous Labour government.

I've found this a common theme amongst leave supporters. They do not like the way the country is at the moment, so they've voted to leave the EU. Now we will see what happens when these supporters realise that the same problems not only persist, but actually get worse.

There's an easy way to guarantee that things will get worse: exit the EU. Sure, we'll probably get back to where we were eventually, but expect 10+ years of increased hardship first as we cause mass market uncertainty and heightened risk whilst ripping up our existing free trade infrastructure to start from square one.

All level-headed leave supporters know that this is an "it will get worse before it might get better" situation economically. Do not be surprised if the next decade is considerably worse than the decade prior to leaving the EU.

 

[APW]

Why do you blame the EU for that?

The entire world went through the 2008 financial crisis, and years of austerity by our current Government was an attempt to close the deficit gap cause by that crisis and the overspending of the previous Labour government.

I've found this a common theme amongst leave supporters. They do not like the way the country is at the moment, so they've voted to leave the EU. Now we will see what happens when these supporters realise that the same problems not only persist, but actually get worse.

There's an easy way to guarantee that things will get worse: exit the EU. Sure, we'll probably get back to where we were eventually, but expect 10+ years of increased hardship first as we cause mass market uncertainty and heightened risk whilst ripping up our existing free trade infrastructure to start from square one.

All level-headed leave supporters know that this is an "it will get worse before it might get better" situation economically. Do not be surprised if the next decade is considerably worse than the decade prior to leaving the EU.

I would rather have 10 years of hardship than a lifetime of cuts and forced laws by an unelected, untouchable organisation who's main aim is to help themselves.

I blame the EU purely on the fees they impose on us, the fact they are unelected, I don't belief someone in belgium has OUR best interests at heart and lets not forget they are all corrupt.

Also I believe WE need to clean OUR house first, sort out OUR problems and build OUR country first using OUR taxes then once we have done that we can help others. Why should I work myself into an early grave for Greece?

They haven't done anything for us, have they?

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

I would rather have 10 years of hardship than a lifetime of cuts and forced laws by an unelected, untouchable organisation who's main aim is to help themselves.

I blame the EU purely on the fees they impose on us, the fact they are unelected, I don't belief someone in belgium has OUR best interests at heart and lets not forget they are all corrupt.

They haven't done anything for us, have they?

We've actually voted in favour of 97% of all EU laws since 1999. We've voted against about 50 and voted in favour of over 2500, I believe.

In practice, almost every EU law is actually a UK law.

What the EU has gave us is a free single market of 500million people with no barriers in trade for our businesses and our huge service sector. Let's hope that continues otherwise we're in real trouble. Unfortunately for leave supporters, this is likely to result in continued payment to the EU, continued alignment with regulations and, at a bare minimum, the continued free movement of labour.

Also I believe WE need to clean OUR house first, sort out OUR problems and build OUR country first using OUR taxes then once we have done that we can help others. Why should I work myself into an early grave for Greece?

Because Greece going bankrupt will reverberate through the global economy and make our economy and hardship even worse.

Unfortunately, this is a downside of huge global integration, but it's nothing to do with the EU. The world has been moving that way for decades. We can be more prosperous by integrating countries and expanding trade, but this has the downside of making us a lot more vulnerable to the performances of other countries.

It's just impossible to isolate yourself from these things, even outside of the EU.

 

[APW]

Ok let's make this easy for our business heads:

so we are in a club, is it fair that the membership fee is based on your earnings?

Is it fair that people can join and without paying anything they can take money from your club - would you just accept that?

If you couldn't afford the club fees because your in so much debt would you manage your finances better by leaving the club and getting your budget under control and save your business or would you continue to pay the club fees no matter what it costs and let your business and employees suffer as a result?

 

[Newchodge]

Ok let's make this easy for our business heads:

so we are in a club, is it fair that the membership fee is based on your earnings?

Is it fair that people can join and without paying anything they can take money from your club - would you just accept that?

If you couldn't afford the club fees because your in so much debt would you manage your finances better by leaving the club and getting your budget under control and save your business or would you continue to pay the club fees no matter what it costs and let your business and employees suffer as a result?

It depends on the cost:benefit analysis.

If you are in a club from which you gain absolutely no benefit, never allowed to play golf on the course, banned from drinking in the bar, not allowed to network with other members, then the club would not be worth the fee.

It is the analysis of benefit that is often lacking from leavers' equations. In some cases their is absolute denial of any benefit.

 

[APW]

And for our £350 million a week what benefit are we getting? Our business is on its knees and has been for so long now and this club is bleeding us dry....when do you make the business decision to get out of this club for the sake of our employees?

 

[roydmoorian]

For this £350,000,000 Gross we have gone from having the SLOWEST growth in the G7 to having the HIGHEST growth....

https://www.facebook.com/LibDemLife...1443.113047688726316/1169299276434480/?type=3

 

[APW]

No offence but i would never take information from Facebook or a political party at face value and as you linked a political parties Facebook page I wouldn't even click on it.

Sorry

 

[Newchodge]

And for our £350 million a week what benefit are we getting? Our business is on its knees and has been for so long now and this club is bleeding us dry....when do you make the business decision to get out of this club for the sake of our employees?

Are you claiming we got no return whatsoever from that 350million?

Ask Cornwall
Ask the North East
Ask farmers
Ask scientific research.
Etc

I am not saying that benefits outweigh the cost (although I think they do) but you cannot claim 0 benefit.

 

[APW]

Did I say that? I think you are claiming somethin at isn't true (typical remainer lol)

But really where did I say we got NO return?

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Ok let's make this easy for our business heads:

so we are in a club, is it fair that the membership fee is based on your earnings?

Tax is. Not only do wealthier people pay more overall, but they even pay a higher percentage whilst many other people in the "club" are a net drain.

Is that fair? Should we just split up rich and poor people as well?

Is it fair that people can join and without paying anything they can take money from your club - would you just accept that?

If taking money allows these businesses to establish themselves better so they become stronger trade partners and ultimately give me a net return on my investment, then yes.

For every £1 we put into the EU, we get £10 back through trade. If there are any business clubs out there which could give me a 900% return on my investment, then sign me up.

 

[APW]

Can you link evidence to your £1 - £10 return claim?

 

[Newchodge]

Did I say that? I think you are claiming somethin at isn't true (typical remainer lol)

But really where did I say we got NO return?

Absolutely typical Brexiter. Change the subject when you can't think of an answer.

Read my post. I did not say that you said we got NO return. I asked if that was what you were saying? I presume from your response that you were not saying that, although you haven't answered my question.

So if you are saying we do get benefits, what is your cost:benefit analysis?

 

[APW]

Please don't claim everyone in the same group has the same thought process (I did above as a joke).

I haven't made any claims just asked questions and made comments from my own opinion.

You are seeming very hostile regarding my posts is it because I am asking things that you too do not know for certainty and is frustrating you?

 

[Newchodge]

Please don't claim everyone in the same group has the same thought process (I did above as a joke).

I haven't made any claims just asked questions and made comments from my own opinion.

You are seeming very hostile regarding my posts is it because I am asking things that you too do not know for certainty and is frustrating you?

Another Brexit tactic. If you can't answer the argument resort to personal attacks.

Please show exactly where I have been hostile?

 

[APW]

Again a hostile comment - I even said I don't know for sure but that's the problem here. NO ONE KNOWS not even you so calm down and stop taring people with the same brush

 

[threenine]

Being IN the EU hasn't gotten us anywhere, we are worse off now than in the last decade and with no signs of improving being OUT was the only option for some kind of change, whether good or bad no one will know but remaining IN would only guarantee things will get worse.

Rather distorted view I think.

We're the 5th Largest economy in the World. For a little island off the shores of Europe. In my eyes that somewhere.

 

[APW]

5th largest? That's the issue....we are being held back. Once upon a time we where the greatest country in the world and now we continue to slip down the chain.

Let's make the UK THE BEST AGAIN.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ond-remain-latest-will-we-leave-a7105116.html

 

[APW]

The headline got me there...did they really survey more than 1 million people? I highly doubt that

 

[Toby Willows]

re your link to 1,000,000 survey, had to delete link as I cant post links!! Toby

That'll depend on who you ask, ask the younger generation and they'll mostly say they would change their mind. Ask the older generation and none would change. Looks like the older generation just cancelled out the younger "keep Nandos in the UK" generation vote and it's us middle aged bunch that made the educated (as in looked at the facts as far we were able) vote, generally.

As for the 3,000,000 petition that's already been shown to be a sham with 40,000 votes coming from Vatican City alone, a country with only 800 residents, most of whom I would imagine are not eligible to vote anyway.....

 

[threenine]

That'll depend on who you ask, ask the younger generation and they'll mostly say they would change their mind. Ask the older generation and none would change. Looks like the older generation just cancelled out the younger "keep Nandos in the UK" generation vote and it's us middle aged bunch that made the educated (as in looked at the facts as far we were able) vote, generally.

As for the 3,000,000 petition that's already been shown to be a sham with 40,000 votes coming from Vatican City alone, a country with only 800 residents, most of whom I would imagine are not eligible to vote anyway.....

The fact that the petition was originally set up by a "Leaver" just in case the vote didn't go the leaves way, speaks volumes in itself!!

 

[APW]

I agree. It shows that people can't cope with democracy.

Maybe we should just become a dictatorship and be done with being free.

 

[KM-Tiger]

I believe that the Brexit politicians are hoping that some kind of associate status with only the free movement of labour will be accepted by the EU. However, this just means that any EU citizen can still enter the UK to live here providing they can show evidence of having secured a job before they arrive.

I think there can be a compromise. Totally free movement, even just of labour, isn't going to cut it with most leave voters, but maybe with a cap?

But the wish was to bring numbers under control, and as a secondary effect to even things out so we treat the whole world equally. We also need to facilitate business and trade, and if businesses need to recruit foreign talent they should be able to do so within a known set of constraints.

Cannot see what the answer is right now, but there must be a way. I'll think some more ...

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

5th largest? That's the issue....we are being held back. Once upon a time we where the greatest country in the world and now we continue to slip down the chain.

Let's make the UK THE BEST AGAIN.

The only reason we ever got anywhere near this size is because of the British Empire and our quest for colonialism.

It was much easier to grow such a small country when, at its peak, our empire covered a quarter of the earth with colonised countries paying into our coffers.

That ain't coming back, and unfortunately, putting our access to the EU's single market of 500million consumers at risk by leaving is going to cause us to slip down the chain even further.

 

[APW]

Personally I'm more excited to see what excuse the work shy British doleys come up with now that they won't be able to use foreigners as a reason lol

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

I think there can be a compromise. Totally free movement, even just of labour, isn't going to cut it with most leave voters, but maybe with a cap?

But the wish was to bring numbers under control, and as a secondary effect to even things out so we treat the whole world equally. We also need to facilitate business and trade, and if businesses need to recruit foreign talent they should be able to do so within a known set of constraints.

Cannot see what the answer is right now, but there must be a way. I'll think some more ...

Free movement of labour will be the compromise, I think. That's not even a compromise the EU will necessarily accept. Every other country involved has been required to allow the free movement of people as a key pillar of the single market. Even Switzerland.

If they do let us reap the benefits of the single market and continue with the current benefits of our trading arrangements by permitting the free movement of labour only with a larger fee for the privilege, then we'll be the first.

You're right. It certainly isn't going to cut it with most leave voters. Therein lies the problem which is really going to come into play over the next 2 years.

I said this months ago: this is only a vote to leave, not on what to do once we've left. Pro-leave politicians have become so swept up in trying to convince people to leave that they haven't articulated their realistic plan of the deal they intend to get.

The UK will take back some control, but I don't think it will be anywhere near as much control as many leave voters expect. This video really says it all:

"It means we will have some control".

 

[KM-Tiger]

That ain't coming back,

Shame really. There are a few here that will remember the maps that were in every school classroom showing the Empire coloured in pink. There were a few bits of the world that were not.

But more seriously, we are still members of the Commonwealth, the 53 countries of which we share a lot of things in common, like language and systems of law. It's big and it's growing.