I'm I working from home illegally?

[The Blind Man]

I promise I tried to search for a relevant previous thread first to stop anyone going over old ground.

Here is my dilemma and frankly I am panicking.

I am registered as self employed, pay tax & NI, and recently VAT registered. I work from home as a self employed blinds installer. This is basically a franchise and I generate leads through advertising, get the sale, buy the materials from my franchisor who then delivers them to my house once or twice a week. I then go and fit the blinds and take the money.

I have been doing this for about 18 months now with no real problems. Until today when a neighbour came up to me as I was clearing out my van (signwritten) and proceeded to tell me I was not allowed to run a business from my home as there is a covenant in place to that effect. It also irks her greatly that she has to look at my van everyday it is parked outside my house. She also showed me a letter she had received from a prospective buyer for her own property who had pulled out of the sale citing that my operating from my house is in breach of a covenant - I suppose this is the catalyst for this mornings approach to me.

I should clarify that I do not own my home, rather I live with my parents who do own it and go about my business with their blessing, and with no problems with any other neighbours I might add.

Where do I stand? I'm not a Limited company or trading at such a level where I can afford business premises. I'm just trying to make a living truth be told.

Any help greatly appreciated and I will provide further details you may require in your responses. Thanks.

 

[SenditOver]

uuugh, curtain twitcher's really annoy me..

if it were me, i'd start parking the van infront of her property. but thats just going to make things worse.

your only hope is to inform the council of your actions, and accept that you're gonna have to pay the business rates on the property

best to do this BEFORE she complains to the council, as they will very likely refuse your request if there is a complaint.


HTH

 

[JoyDivision]

As longs as you're only using a part of a room for business purporses you do not need to pay business tax on the property .

The council know about my business (my property is even classed as a business on some coucnil thing I got) but we don't pay any business tax as only a desk is being used for business purposes.

However I believe some houses have conditions attached to them which means you cannot run a business from it.

 

[phoenix_mr]

if people are not coming to your house or calling at your home for your services then you are not turning your home in to a buisiness then its completly diferent, if you are going to peoples with samples and quoting then doing the job on returning than you are actualy mobile working, where you do your paperwork is up to you, office, van or home.

I had a similar problem when my neighbor dident like me parking my 5m citron relay van out side the front of his property, but he doesent own the road, so no case, and your intiteld to park you van at your home address.

but just easy to phone up the local Citezens Advice for good free details of action to take.

 

[Antonia @limeone.com]

You need to look at the deeds/Land certificate entries to check this out too so your parents should be asking their solicitor or morgage company to get them a copy as soon as possible.

Personally many people run small businesses from home and most neighbours do nothing about it, this sounds a little excessive to me and perhaps the prospective buyer was 'asked' to write the letter to support ' her case'?

 

[The Blind Man]

Thanks Guys,

I guess I need to see this covenant thingy and maybe approach the council.

I wonder what constitutes running a business? I mean, I have no customers coming to the house, do not advertise my address, work from my PC in the spare room and store blinds in the garage until they are ready to be fitted. None of which requires the house to be modified in any way shape or form.

 

[Jezclayton]

Technically the neighbour is right. If there is a covenant in place, it sounds like you are in breach. This may sound tough, but the covenants are there to protect the neighbourhood and lay down certain rules of conduct.

Can't really blame her for feeling a bit miffed, especially if her house sale really did fall through because of it. Some of the new estates round here have covenants banning the parking of sign written vans and even leaving your vehicle out of the garage overnight? Whilst it may seem trivial to you, it certainly isn't to the Mrs Buckets of this world.

Since you are receiving deliveries and storing materials at your house, I think it is fair to say that you are running a business from there as opposed to just working from home.

 

[The Blind Man]

Thanks Jez - I tend to agree. Whether I think she's a busybody or not is irrelevant if the law is on her side. I think I have perhaps just been lucky so far insomuch that all of the other neighbours have no objection.

I just never even thought about it when I started doing this. I am keen to know though at what stage being self employed crosses the threshold of operating a business if what I do is, as someone said earlier, essentially mobile working or is the fact that I receive goods to sell on the crux of the whole thing.

 

[lesliedocherty]

Disagree with gez, dont class this as running a business, any employee who takesa van home would annoy the neighbour.
Taking in deliveries and such is not the same as running a business from home, but i can see her point, big vans tend to annoy the non van owners.

 

[websnail]

I think the point is whether the council and/or a magistrate would see it as running a business or not and then whether it breached the covenant.

Our opinion one way or the other isn't going to matter a jot.

 

[The Blind Man]

True enough.

I am a member of the FSB so a call to their legal helpline may be in order.

 

[obscure]

I know you don't need (and can't afford) business premises
but have you thought about renting a garage nearby to park the van in/store stuff?

 

[mobyme]

Covenants are funny things and are often used by developers to maintain a degree of control over what is allowable for a number of years until they have sold all of the properties in a given development. Open plan front gardens (no fences) is a favourite; no caravans is another. Any breach of a covenant in these circumstances is a civil matter between the property owner and the developer and nothing to do with the council. I do not believe any restriction on a sign written van is enforceable on an adopted road; of course if it's a private road anything may go. If it is the case that the covenant is one imposed by the developer and they have now sold all of the properties on the development, they will often set aside the covenant upon payment of a fee. When I moved into my last property there was a covenant saying that no garden sheds or conservatories were allowed, but the developer agreed to set it aside providing we paid them £100. A nice little earner from an estate of about 500 houses.

 

[poordax]

I agree with one of the previous posts. You are not running a business from that address. If you worked for a blind installation company and took your works van home at night what would be the problem? If customers don't call at the house, it is not a registered business address, you do not advertise the address then how can anyone say that it is a business address. You can do your admin anywhere you like. Things like this can get really stressful and its unfair. Get it clarified with the local authority as that will make you feel better. try not to worry in the meantime.

 

[lockie]

I've encountered this before when going to do work on certain estates.I got told to move my van onto the street a long distance from where i was actually working.It was a neighbour who told me to.As mentioned before it appeared to be something set by the developer to help sell the houses. Its getting crazy when no sign written vans are allowed to do work.
Stay polite with the neighbour and see who set up the convenant, i doubt it was the council.

Surely it breaches your human rights if you cannot drive YOUR vehicle to where YOU live ? :|

My mother in law has gone on about her neighbours who put up a sky dish,they had a convenant stating you couldn't do this.This was set up way before satellite dishes were very popular or even needed.The neighbour told her to take her to court if it was such an issue.A quick legal foray revealed it was a civil matter and hard to enforce.

 

[Tom McClelland]

The developer enforces such covenants, but once the estate is complete why are they going to bother? They don't care. I seriously doubt that the council will have any interest in this at all, except maybe from the point of view of business rates.

If the sign-written van does turn out to be an issue then how important is the sign on the van to your revenue? Maybe you can just remove the sign. Then you're just parking your van outside your house.

Suggest to the neighbour that you are considering moving out, but you cannot decide whether to sell the house to the local chapter of the Hells Angels or to the council for use as a care home for difficult children. Perhaps she could advise you on which she'd find preferable.

I simply don't believe that anyone pulling out of a house purchase would write a letter citing that a van was parked nearby. I'm pretty picky about such stuff myself, but that is just a con-job by the neighbour, or someone who was looking for an excuse to pull out of the deal anyway.

 

[Officebird]

You may have to be careful if you are storing your blinds in the garage and there isn't enough room for a car. I don't know how true this is but... I was once told that if you fill your garage up with stuff you want stored (like mine is!) then you can be liable for business rates as it is no longer acting as a garage. Pathetic I know but if your neighbour is on your case she may find this out and insist the council takes action just to get you in trouble. Check this out though as it is only hearsay.

I also agree that if you were an employee then you would be able to park your van outside and she couldn't say anything. Maybe she would rather you were on the dole, lazing around all day playing load music etc etc!

What about getting a registered address? That way you can cite that as your business address and all you are doing is simply working from home on occasions.

I would probably try to placate her a little and agree to move your van when she has a viewing. That way you wouldn't put off potential buyers (if that happened) and then she can move a away and you won't need to worry about her.

 

[lockie]

Thinking of another angle why don't you ask her is if she really wants to sell ? If she was to get into a dispute with a neighbour she would have to declare this to any prospective buyers.Anyone looking to buy doesn't want to buy where neighbours are a "problem". Might be worth pointing this out to her if she gets moody.

 

[Chippie]

Is yours a relatively new estate? The reason I ask is that the covenant to which she refers could just be something that the developers had in place during the sales phase of the development.

When we bought our last but one house, it was on a new development and I was working from home in my own business and had a white Mercedes Vito van which I parked outside each night. The woman from the sales office asked me to move it and park it elsewhere so I did so, on their sales office car park! There was nowhere else to park it! She then asked me to move it back to my drive and reported me to the council for running a business from home.

The council got in touch with me and asked me what I was doing. I told them I was only using my study at home for admin and that all other work was done on a mobile basis at customers addresses. They then informed me that this was not a problem and that I certainly didn't qualify for business rates. I personally would check the wording of any covenant (if it even exists) on your parents deeds. If there isn't one I would ignore her. HTH

 

[CKG]

I would have said you are running your business from your van not your house.

Maybe if you opened up a roller blind showroom in the back room they would have a right to moan.

I have the same 'no business' covernant in my deeds from the 60s as it happens. I never really though about it before.

The in-laws have a no washing line covernant on their house which is a bit odd.

 

[The Blind Man]

Thanks everyone, i feel a lot better about things.

I have a copy of the deeds which state:

'NO trade or business shall be carried on upon any part of the land'

The houses were built in the early seventies so other limitations on the land are no hedges over 4ft tall, no outbuildings like conservatories although 'rustic summer houses, sheds etc are OK. It seems like a bit of a dinosaur of deed to me.

Anyway, whilst some have intimated at it, does anyone actually know if the definition of what I do constitutes carrying out trade or business here?

Basically I do not sell from the house, no customers come or go, no money changes hands here as I do all the selling and financial transactions at customers premises. My 'office' is a laptop in the back bedroom where I sleep, I'm self employed and not a registered business. Yes I have a sign written van, which actually bears the logo's of my franchisor and my tel#, but if I worked for Sky Aerials or BT for example, i would have a vehicle.

Everybody has been great so far and a huge thank you to all who have responded.

 

[Adam(KOS)]

Thanks everyone, i feel a lot better about things.

I have a copy of the deeds which state:

'NO trade or business shall be carried on upon any part of the land'

The houses were built in the early seventies so other limitations on the land are no hedges over 4ft tall, no outbuildings like conservatories although 'rustic summer houses, sheds etc are OK. It seems like a bit of a dinosaur of deed to me.

Anyway, whilst some have intimated at it, does anyone actually know if the definition of what I do constitutes carrying out trade or business here?

Basically I do not sell from the house, no customers come or go, no money changes hands here as I do all the selling and financial transactions at customers premises. My 'office' is a laptop in the back bedroom where I sleep, I'm self employed and not a registered business. Yes I have a sign written van, which actually bears the logo's of my franchisor and my tel#, but if I worked for Sky Aerials or BT for example, i would have a vehicle.

Everybody has been great so far and a huge thank you to all who have responded.

Have you looked to see if the neighbour is breaking any of the covenants / restrictions
As far as HMIT are concerned my business is registered at home for administration purposes while I actually 'trade' from my shop in the city center ( and on the web ) You appear to be in the same situation as regarding plying you trade away from your residence. As stated if your van is parked on an 'adopted' ( AKA public owned road ) road then there is nothing you neighbour can do

 

[The Blind Man]

Well Adam, that had crossed my mind. Basically this lady is a bit of a b!tch and nobody gets on with her. She was the first to move in around here and likes to think she rules the roost. That aside, I will stay civil and approach her when I am fully certain of my rights, duties, obligations and facts. WW3 I don't need, I just want a quiet life.

 

[PayVector]

I am with you on the TBM. Seems to me this lady is trying her luck. I think you are right in remaining civil. I would suggest writing a letter to her explaining your point of view, conversations can get heated as we all know in this type of situation. Make sure you clearly state you have taken advise and do not believe that you are in breach of any council issue and if she feels otherwise that her correct and only course of action is to speak with a civil lawyer and or the council and not to confront you on the street.

If you can not park your Van on the street and she is bullying you then what next. What if she does not like green cars or pink cars or worse yet green and pink cars.

Best of luck and let us know how it turns out.

 

[Adam(KOS)]

Well Adam, that had crossed my mind. Basically this lady is a bit of a b!tch and nobody gets on with her. She was the first to move in around here and likes to think she rules the roost. That aside, I will stay civil and approach her when I am fully certain of my rights, duties, obligations and facts. WW3 I don't need, I just want a quiet life.

As you say, do your ground work first. It might also help if you find out how many people living in your road are registered as a business. I don't suppose she'd like to take on a number of self employed persons.

 

[phoenix_mr]

just a thoght, why not get magnetic sighns and just remove them when you have done for the day?

 

[creospace]

Why not send the lady a bunch of flowers? She's probably not used to a compliment or anything nice happening to her and you might find it turns the whole situation around.

It's amazing how a gesture of goodwill can change things and the price of a nice bunch of flowers from a pro forest is far far less than all the agro.

Gary

 

[streetslocal]

send her some good old crocus!!!

But seriously it does not sound like you are running the business from home really.
If needs be dont take delivery of the blinds pick them up if possible or send them to a freinds house via delivery.

But in regards to your van park it on roadside as its a public road and you pay road tax.

 

[xkv]

Offer to install blinds at the neighbours house and she can 'blind' herself to your van parked outside!

 

[confused]

Well,

If it were me, I'd first check my legal status etc, if it was deemed I COULD park my sign written van than oh boy would I go out of my way to get on her nerves. I'd park it as close to her drive/car as possilble and make a habbit of turning it round about an hour after she went to bed - making as much engine noise as possible. I'd also plaster vinly over any other cars I owned and park them in the way too.
If you want some vinyl cutting let me know and I'll do you some at a very good price since its for a "good cause"

 

[The Blind Man]

Thanks again for the responses everyone. Even if some are slightly mischievous and others impractical.

It's a public road so I'm considering the van thing as a non issue. I believe things hinge on the covenant on the land stating 'No business or trade to be carried out etc'.

It may be as simple as adopting a business address in the area for mail. Which I'll look into. Then again maybe I just need to find out if the neighbour is bearing any ill will and has intentions of making a complaint against me or trying to enforce the terms of the covenant for herself.

Interestingly there are 2 other home based businesses on the same road within 20 doors away. A dating agency and a limo hire company. I may go talk to them too.

This is all a pain in the 4rse really, but interesting nonetheless.

 

[tomassolimited]

" Surely it breaches your human rights if you cannot drive YOUR vehicle to where you live."

Hey thats a funny statement as under statutory law you dont have the right to park on the road. The law states the highway is for the king and his courteurs ( sorry about my spelling) to pass and impass and mentions about not stopping.

It was written in medieval times and is well dated - hence the mention of the highways and byways and the king.....

Peter.

 

[lockie]

The thing is by all this bending over backwards to accomodate her you are encouraging her behaviour.If she wants to move then help her to move if not then she needs to realise her behaviour is not acceptable.So many of these busy bodies get above themselves. You are not trading from home you run a mobile business and if she thinks you run it from home she needs to prove otherwise.
All this will cause bad feeling and a dispute which she legally has to declare to any future buyers.
If you accomodate her on this issue you can bet there will something else thats will need addressing in the future.

On a lighter note see if the limo hire wants to park in front of your house every night with a singles party going on in it

 

[.Spiralling.]

On a lighter note see if the limo hire wants to park in front of your house every night with a singles party going on in it

Or get the dating agency to conduct a speed dating night in the limo outside her house. The limo could be fitted with your blinds

 

[asonda]

Curtain Twitching, Bum Munching Idiot is what I say.

How dare she. I'm sick of these type of people because where I live, The street is full of them and has even come down to proper arguments between me and a neighbour or two because of Parking Issues. I didn't start the argument, cause the argument or even want an argument, they do it on purpose because they think they own the place and try to put you in your place, well I'm not one for being bullied so I stood up for myself and now they are invisible to me

From what you have said, don't worry about business rates, you won't need to pay them. A covernant from the 70s, don't worry, she's trying it on with you, I highly doubt a buyer would reject a house down to your van being parked outside.

Just get on with life, your business and future. You're safe.

 

[ccctraining]

why not simply register the business at another address, i am sure there are companies that provide that service

 

[AdamJ]

Two words keep being bandied about here with seeming interchangeability - 'covenant' and 'deed'. Are they the same? (I don't know). Deeds can have very long-standing restrictions on property and can go beyond the developer. I don't know what the two terms actually mean but it may be worth clarifying it as the implications could be quite different.

 

[The Blind Man]

Well everybody - here's the latest.

I spoke with the FSB Legal helpline this morning. Their opinion is that as my business is essentially mobile and wholly conducted away from my home then I am not technically running a business from my home. The fact that I take phone calls here from time to time, do a bit of admin and that the address appears on my invoices is incidental.

The neighbour would have to enforce a civil court action of her own to prove I am running a business from home which would be anti sale for her as only she or the developers could enforce the deed/covenant. However, having looked at other sections of the deeds it appears that the developers state they have no obligation to enforce any breach and that house owners have no rights to ask the developer to do so.

I also spoke with the council, who say that if all I do is use a laptop in the back room and that no part of the property is modified in anyway then they do not require me to pay business rates.

As for the parking, as I have said, it's a public road and I pay road tax. I have made one concession and will park the van off street on the driveway. Although, and this is what I like the best, both of my adjoining neighbours have offered me the use of their driveways if I require. There are good people around here.

Thanks again for everybody who has taken an interest in me and this thread, I am very very appreciative of you all.

 

[creospace]

So what are you going to do next?

 

[The Blind Man]

I'm thinking of putting what I have found out in writing and sending her a polite letter stating my position as I perceive it.

Somebody mentioned flowers before as a gesture, which I may do, with a bit of sneezing powder in them.

I used to work as a Passenger Relations Officer for a huge US cruise line, so not adverse to a bit of 'stroking' to diffuse situations.