How many hours in the Working Week?

[WendyThompson]

I've just read an article about a US company which advocates a 5-hour workday for improved employee happiness and retention, more productivity and sales. That seems scarily low to me. How many hours do you ask or expect employees to work? What's the optimum number of hours in a working week?

 

[Newchodge]

I've just read an article about a US company which advocates a 5-hour workday for improved employee happiness and retention, more productivity and sales. That seems scarily low to me. How many hours do you ask or expect employees to work? What's the optimum number of hours in a working day?

The UK has a major issue of presenteeism. An employer may require an employee to be at work for 9 hours each day, 1 hour of which is an unpaid break. However that does not mean that the employee is working for 8 hours. There is a strong argument that the fewer hours people are required to work, the greater their productivity. There is a break-even point and 5 hours may well be it!

 

[Mr D]

I've just read an article about a US company which advocates a 5-hour workday for improved employee happiness and retention, more productivity and sales. That seems scarily low to me. How many hours do you ask or expect employees to work? What's the optimum number of hours in a working week?

It depends.
If the employee wants to earn 5 hours a day income and work a 4 or 5 day week they can ask for it. Some employers may give it. However there is not a right to have that working day.

May not be cost effective for the employee to earn say £700 a month net a month rather than over a grand but that is their choice. For some it will improve work life balance and they will be happier. For others it would make things worse.

There are times a 5 hour day would be a bad idea. Project with deadline that must be met, a 10 hour day isn't out of the question. Giving such work to a person working a 5 hour day would be a disaster.
For something else - say shop assistant - perhaps a 5 hour day could work. 9 till 2 perhaps then they can grab lunch on their way home or get lunch at home.

 

[Paul Norman]

There is never going to be one answer to this question!

I tend to push back against the idea that a long working week makes you a better person. But stipulating a shorter one, too, has it's down sides.

Some people want to work more hours. And may do so. In some jobs, that will have safety implications (truck driving, for example). In others, it might result in less of an increase in outputs than people imagine.

It's a great discussion point. But I always stop short of believing that ideas like this have a universally good outcome.

 

[Interestedobserver]

The UK has a major issue of presenteeism. An employer may require an employee to be at work for 9 hours each day, 1 hour of which is an unpaid break. However that does not mean that the employee is working for 8 hours. There is a strong argument that the fewer hours people are required to work, the greater their productivity. There is a break-even point and 5 hours may well be it!

So maybe we should all only look to offer 25 hours work per week

Maybe in the future that becomes the new life/work balance and people will find a way to make it work financially

I don't doubt 25 hrs is going to be at least close to the break even point as you say above

If people only had 25 hrs to work though would they just end up working 16 of those as they are in the habit of losing focus regardless

Staff like to chat no matter what

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

I've just read an article about a US company which advocates a 5-hour workday for improved employee happiness and retention, more productivity and sales. That seems scarily low to me. How many hours do you ask or expect employees to work? What's the optimum number of hours in a working week?

This story appeared on the BBC website today. Goldman Sachs Bankers ask for 80-hour week cap! Down from 91?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56452494

 

[WendyThompson]

The UK has a major issue of presenteeism. An employer may require an employee to be at work for 9 hours each day, 1 hour of which is an unpaid break. However that does not mean that the employee is working for 8 hours. There is a strong argument that the fewer hours people are required to work, the greater their productivity. There is a break-even point and 5 hours may well be it!

Yes, I suspect the pandemic may have changed the thinking around office presence and productive hours of work for some businesses.

 

[WendyThompson]

It depends.
If the employee wants to earn 5 hours a day income and work a 4 or 5 day week they can ask for it. Some employers may give it. However there is not a right to have that working day.

May not be cost effective for the employee to earn say £700 a month net a month rather than over a grand but that is their choice. For some it will improve work life balance and they will be happier. For others it would make things worse.

There are times a 5 hour day would be a bad idea. Project with deadline that must be met, a 10 hour day isn't out of the question. Giving such work to a person working a 5 hour day would be a disaster.
For something else - say shop assistant - perhaps a 5 hour day could work. 9 till 2 perhaps then they can grab lunch on their way home or get lunch at home.

Very true, it's got to depend on the business and the individual employee to work out what works for them.

 

[Tigris]

Heard of this in Finland I think it is and it did actually improve productivity (don't quote me on the country)

 

[Ozzy]

I feel like such a trailblazer , several years ago and I cannot remember exactly how long ago, I had all my staff contracts amended to remove working hours and replaced with "7 hours of productivity" a day.
I don't mind when you start, when you finish, or how long of a lunch break you take, or even how many breaks you take. I just expect my team to do 7 hours of productivity a day.

....although seeing this, starting to wonder if team may ask for 5 hours instead of 7

 

[Interestedobserver]

This story appeared on the BBC website today. Goldman Sachs Bankers ask for 80-hour week cap! Down from 91?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56452494

I guess that's why half of them are on cocaine

 

[Interestedobserver]

I feel like such a trailblazer , several years ago and I cannot remember exactly how long ago, I had all my staff contracts amended to remove working hours and replaced with "7 hours of productivity" a day.
I don't mind when you start, when you finish, or how long of a lunch break you take, or even how many breaks you take. I just expect my team to do 7 hours of productivity a day.

....although seeing this, starting to wonder if team may ask for 5 hours instead of 7

Slave driver - you should be ashamed expecting so much from them!

They must all be burnt out from the extra effort you are demanding!

Lol

 

[WendyThompson]

I feel like such a trailblazer , several years ago and I cannot remember exactly how long ago, I had all my staff contracts amended to remove working hours and replaced with "7 hours of productivity" a day.
I don't mind when you start, when you finish, or how long of a lunch break you take, or even how many breaks you take. I just expect my team to do 7 hours of productivity a day.

....although seeing this, starting to wonder if team may ask for 5 hours instead of 7

Be afraid!! LOL! Seriously though, this is a very sensible 21st Century approach!

 

[Ozzy]

Slave driver - you should be ashamed expecting so much from them!

They must all be burnt out from the extra effort you are demanding!

Lol

I know right! Next they'll be demanding paid holiday and sick pay!
I blame the unions.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

The UK has a major issue of presenteeism. An employer may require an employee to be at work for 9 hours each day, 1 hour of which is an unpaid break. However that does not mean that the employee is working for 8 hours. There is a strong argument that the fewer hours people are required to work, the greater their productivity. There is a break-even point and 5 hours may well be it!

I sold advertising alongside a guy who was late most mornings, took extended lunch breaks, often went awol when out on calls, but was top salesman every year. A real character etc., but at 59 years old was incapable of working a full shift or to anyone else's clock but his own.
Under pressure to conform from a wet behind the ears new boss he promised to try as long as he was allowed to sing a song whenever he sold something. 'Of course, she said... I hope to hear it lots'............ Like her predecessors she soon knew she had a battle on her hands as he hollered this out many times a day..

 

[Mark T Jones]

Long hours culture is a strange one - particularly prevalent in Japan & US - where the expectation to attend is far greater than the need to perform.

Many years ago I worked for a company which expected us to be in the office until 6.00PM on a Friday (contracted hours were 9-5). You weren't expected to be working - feet on desk chatting about football was fine, you were just expected to be there - presumably to tickle the owner's ego.

I didn't last long

Obviously there are some roles - eg retail where physical attendance is critical. Otherwie, better to judge on stuff that actually matters.

 

[Mr D]

Actual hours worked can be unusual. One of the team members on a project used to email me at 2am onwards regarding stuff.
During the day she looks after her little boy and the work she's doing needs concentration. So night hours were her choice, doing an hour here or there while her boy had a daytime nap plus maybe 3 or 4 hours in middle of the night. Worked for her - but maybe not suitable where team interaction is needed a lot more.

What people usually appear to mean when they talk about a shorter working week in general terms is the same income as now but a lot less hours.
Can't see that being viable for most people unless productivity is improved.
Whereas less hours worked for most of us means less income. Fine in a double income household - but may be totally impossible if the sole income person.

 

[japancool]

particularly prevalent in Japan

In Japan, a lot of it is down to the corporate culture - junior staff members are not supposed to leave work before the boss does.

Mind you, if the boss wants to take you with him on a long lunch, you go, you smile and nod at his jokes or the pearls of wisdom that he gives you, then you come back into the office and finish all the things you could have been doing while on that lunch.

 

[Ozzy]

In Japan, a lot of it is down to the corporate culture - junior staff members are not supposed to leave work before the boss does.

Mind you, if the boss wants to take you with him on a long lunch, you go, you smile and nod at his jokes or the pearls of wisdom that he gives you, then you come back into the office and finish all the things you could have been doing while on that lunch.

I did some work in China a few years back, and it is similar there too. The line between private life and work life was very blurred, in fact I'm not sure there was a line

 

[japancool]

I did some work in China a few years back, and it is similar there too. The line between private life and work life was very blurred, in fact I'm not sure there was a line

I remember watching this in action. I was sitting in the smoking room of a Tokyo restaurant, and these two poor salarymen were with their boss for lunch. They clearly didn't want to be there, but there was no way they could have said no. The boss was doing all the talking and the other two just sat there and agreed with him.

They probably didn't even want to drink alcohol, given that it was the middle of the day, but if the boss is drinking, so do you!

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

I remember watching this in action. I was sitting in the smoking room of a Tokyo restaurant, and these two poor salarymen were with their boss for lunch. They clearly didn't want to be there, but there was no way they could have said no. The boss was doing all the talking and the other two just sat there and agreed with him.

They probably didn't even want to drink alcohol, given that it was the middle of the day, but if the boss is drinking, so do you!

I was once told that if given a business card, you should grasp it in both hands and study it, as for a Japanese businessman it's akin to giving you part of their soul?

 

[japancool]

I was once told that if given a business card, you should grasp it in both hands and study it, as for a Japanese businessman it's akin to giving you part of their soul?

Yes, that's right. And when you give your card to someone, you hold it by the top two corners and proffer it face up with both hands, usually while bowing.

There's a whole, well-defined etiquette in how these things are done.

 

[Mr D]

I was once told that if given a business card, you should grasp it in both hands and study it, as for a Japanese businessman it's akin to giving you part of their soul?

Yes, its multiple cultures you come across that.
Not the soul part but expected to comment favourably, treat it as a great item etc.
The western idea of getting handed a card and immediately putting it in your pocket is .... poor manners.

 

[fisicx]

Yes, its multiple cultures you come across that.
Not the soul part but expected to comment favourably, treat it as a great item etc.
The western idea of getting handed a card and immediately putting it in your pocket is .... poor manners.

Or just chucking it in the bin.

 

[Annoying Donkey]

I don't care how many hours my guys work... So long as the work is done... on time...

 

[Mark T Jones]

Or just chucking it in the bin.

Or picking your teeth with it - very much frowned on is some cultures

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

If I send a van down to Northern Italy on an express delivery that has to be there ASAP . The five hour day may cause untold problems .

 

[Darren_Ssc]

If I send a van down to Northern Italy on an express delivery that has to be there ASAP . The five hour day may cause untold problems .

Your average DPD driver could do that trip in 4 hours, no problem.

 

[Mr D]

Your average DPD driver could do that trip in 4 hours, no problem.

Your average ATS driver could drive that distance in a month.

 

[MarkOnline]

Talking in general terms the countries going soft. Get your coat off and do some graft. Its very much part of this "entitled culture" . Do you think we built wealth in this country by working a 25 hour week? In the bad old days when a man was down a pit for 14 hours a day that was too far the other way, but 5 hour days is too far the other way too. If we dont improve our productivity in this country we will end up further and further behind our competitors with very little chance of clawing our way back up.

While Im at it I may as well add, it ties in with give me money, I should have the things I want with as little commitment as possible. And we wonder why the country is where it is. Go get doing.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Your average DPD driver could do that trip in 4 hours, no problem.

Thank you for that I'm poaching them

 

[gpietersz]

What people usually appear to mean when they talk about a shorter working week in general terms is the same income as now but a lot less hours.
Can't see that being viable for most people unless productivity is improved.

As people have pointed out, reducing hours does increase productivity per hour. The impact on productivity in the long term can go either way.

 

[Clinton]

Talking in general terms the countries going soft. Get your coat off and do some graft. Its very much part of this "entitled culture" ....it ties in with give me money, I should have the things I want with as little commitment as possible...

Well said.

I can't believe the number of people in this thread jumping on the bandwagon to do some virtue signalling!

 

[Mr D]

Talking in general terms the countries going soft. Get your coat off and do some graft. Its very much part of this "entitled culture" . Do you think we built wealth in this country by working a 25 hour week? In the bad old days when a man was down a pit for 14 hours a day that was too far the other way, but 5 hour days is too far the other way too. If we dont improve our productivity in this country we will end up further and further behind our competitors with very little chance of clawing our way back up.

While Im at it I may as well add, it ties in with give me money, I should have the things I want with as little commitment as possible. And we wonder why the country is where it is. Go get doing.

Indeed.
Some choose to do a 25 hour (or whatever amount) due to childcare, caring, health or other issues. For those without such issues then its common to work full time. Or multiple part time jobs adding up to full time.
Some go so far as work full time plus a part time job.

Not everyone can do full time, its not always economically viable to work full time - and part time is an option still available for people with permission from their employer or by choosing the right job.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Talking in general terms the countries going soft. Get your coat off and do some graft. Its very much part of this "entitled culture" . Do you think we built wealth in this country by working a 25 hour week? In the bad old days when a man was down a pit for 14 hours a day that was too far the other way, but 5 hour days is too far the other way too. If we dont improve our productivity in this country we will end up further and further behind our competitors with very little chance of clawing our way back up.

While Im at it I may as well add, it ties in with give me money, I should have the things I want with as little commitment as possible. And we wonder why the country is where it is. Go get doing.

When a man was working down the pit for 14 hours a day, his was most likely the only salary coming into the home. These days the same could be achieved with both parents working 7 hour days.

We've created a society where the plethora of things you can now do outside of work, can no longer be fitted in during the traditional 40 hr working week. A couple of midweek Shandy's and a wander down the works social club on a Saturday night, don't compare with the entertainment opportunities available to us now.

 

[BustersDogs]

When I worked in an office, the company moved further away from my house, so I left (amicably). 3 months later I was back, but on a 6 hour work day. 6 was the minimum, I worked straight through with no breaks and got at least the same amount of work done as when I was with them on a longer day but with an enforced lunch break.

Sadly the 4 hour round trip was as bad as I thought it would be and I left again after a year.

My employees do 5 hour days when I have them, 10 to approx 3pm. They sometimes comment about 'lunchbreaks' I'm afraid that's a No from me, that's the busiest time of the day.

 

[MarkOnline]

Indeed.
Some choose to do a 25 hour (or whatever amount) due to childcare, caring, health or other issues. For those without such issues then its common to work full time. Or multiple part time jobs adding up to full time.
Some go so far as work full time plus a part time job.

Not everyone can do full time, its not always economically viable to work full time - and part time is an option still available for people with permission from their employer or by choosing the right job.

I did start by saying "generally speaking" there will always be exceptions. I am talking about an entitled and ever more lazy culture. They can't get fuit pickers etc to work here so rely on the Eastern Europeans(not their fault) who end up taking home £1000+ a week whats wrong with that for people here? The social system is both good and bad, and its very difficult to fix fairly. But the governement IMO wants a society which relies on it to survive, and thats a bl***y disgace.

As I have previously stated I have been in a position where I had nowt and I worked my way out, I was fortunate in that I had my health, for some its not an option, but that IMO doesnt apply to the majority.

 

[Mr D]

I did start by saying "generally speaking" there will always be exceptions. I am talking about an entitled and ever more lazy culture. They can't get fuit pickers etc to work here so rely on the Eastern Europeans(not their fault) who end up taking home £1000+ a week whats wrong with that for people here? The social system is both good and bad, and its very difficult to fix fairly. But the governement IMO wants a society which relies on it to survive, and thats a bl***y disgace.

As I have previously stated I have been in a position where I had nowt and I worked my way out, I was fortunate in that I had my health, for some its not an option, but that IMO doesnt apply to the majority.

Unfortunately there will be some who want 5 hour working day but want full time wages for doing it.
Or else they cry they cannot live on 5 hour working day.

Some of us have to choose less than full time for whatever reason. Without demanding full time wage.

Though I would hope in an emergency many of the part timers could step up and do what needs doing. If possible.

 

[Martin Patfield]

Furlough and lack of actual working for many people over the past year or so will have a lot to say in the coming months.

I wonder how they will react when they're paid accordingly instead.

 

[Greffertt]

Hello. I think 40 hours is good for some common job. But of course there can be a lot of different variants.