How do you dismiss a ‘good’ employee that just isn’t right?

[Coffeecomposed]

I have an employee who has been with us for over two years. On paper, she’s a good employee - her work is of a good standard, she’s punctual, fun and energetic. However, she’s just not good for the company in so many ways. This has come more to light now for various reasons - perhaps confidence on her part and a change of her working team (which includes myself).

I’ve recently had 3 employees express that they have been upset by her comments and I can totally understand where they are coming from, but they are such small things (and not necessarily work related) that I don’t think they could ever come close as reason to dismiss someone. She’s very young, outspoken and opinionated which generally causes upset and there’s always a dull atmosphere when she’s around.

I know she won’t be with us forever - she’s been quite vocal that this job is a stopgap and she wants to travel which maybe explains her no-filter attitude, but it’s really dragging down the team.

I have spoke to her candidly and explained how some of her comments and general attitude comes across and she just laughed it off and said that she naturally sarcastic and people never know how to take her - she just didn’t get it.
As I say, I definitely don’t have grounds to discipline her but her values are so far from the businesses that I don’t want her in it.

Any suggestions welcome…

 

[Fagin2021]

I have an employee who has been with us for over two years. On paper, she’s a good employee - her work is of a good standard, she’s punctual, fun and energetic. However, she’s just not good for the company in so many ways. This has come more to light now for various reasons - perhaps confidence on her part and a change of her working team (which includes myself).

I’ve recently had 3 employees express that they have been upset by her comments and I can totally understand where they are coming from, but they are such small things (and not necessarily work related) that I don’t think they could ever come close as reason to dismiss someone. She’s very young, outspoken and opinionated which generally causes upset and there’s always a dull atmosphere when she’s around.

I know she won’t be with us forever - she’s been quite vocal that this job is a stopgap and she wants to travel which maybe explains her no-filter attitude, but it’s really dragging down the team.

I have spoke to her candidly and explained how some of her comments and general attitude comes across and she just laughed it off and said that she naturally sarcastic and people never know how to take her - she just didn’t get it.
As I say, I definitely don’t have grounds to discipline her but her values are so far from the businesses that I don’t want her in it.

Any suggestions welcome…

Sorry to say it but my suggestion is that you find an occupation that doesn't involve employing people.

 

[NickGrogan]

If her comments are causing upset and you've had 3 complaints, then you have a reason to disciple her if that's the route you want to take.

Or you could invest time and effort into training her.

Or you could adjust your attitude.

 

[paulears]

I'm not so sure. Have any customers complained? Has anything she has said to you offended you?

Are any of her comments genuinely covered by a law of some kind, like the current race/sexism stuff?

Sarcasm is not protected is it? Unless you have a set of rules she agreed to banning it, then sarcasm is surely not something you can get rid of somebody for? Would the complainers happen to be younger people, who have been told at school, college or uni that sarcasm is unacceptable. It's perhaps not easy to accept but the old maxim about it being the lowest form of wit is still valid.

She is good at her job, she makes you money, so I'd just make her way of speaking subject to analysis. If she is sarcastic, was she actually correct. Many examples of sarcasm are based on fact. "I'd better do it, I want it done right" is sarcastic, but if it's accurate because the other person does keep messing it up, it's accurate.

She's punctual, fun and energetic. The people who complain? can you put some kind of weighting on their comments? You say they are small things, so who exactly is making it a big deal?

Ultimately you've already decided you have no reason to dismiss her and maybe even to discipline her. If no rules have been broken you are stuck. Given a choice, if you had to lose one person, would it be her, or one of the complainers.

I'm about to start a new production, one person, who is very nice isn't coming back, post covid, through choice. He is 100% efficient and effective, but is abrasive and not a team player. People complain about them always being rebooked, but I would rather put up with their foibles than have a foible-less, but less effective person. Time will tell if the replacement this year is a plus or negative point.

 

[Coffeecomposed]

Sorry to say it but my suggestion is that you find an occupation that doesn't involve employing people.

I disagree, I actually think I’m a great employer and have an amazing, very loyal team. I just don’t feel this person is right for us.

 

[paulears]

If that's the case, and you really just want to fire her, you need to work out how to do it. Are you able to legitimately make her leaving more likely. It seems a bit unfair but you just don't like her, don't like her sense of humour and don't like the sarcasm. What you should do is hold her up in a light, and document every example of when her speech style is unacceptable, and just tell her she cannot say that, every time - also of course doing it to the others if they say similar things. I think the comment on employing people is because you seem to mix up 'us' with 'you'. You are the boss. If you don't like what she does tell her it's unacceptable, don't ask her.

 

[InsuranceBroker]

I really don't understand how someone who is fun, punctual, hard working and energetic is a bad fit for the company? Is it company ethos to be depressed, boring, tired and lazy? I don't understand from your comments what the real issue is but ACAS will give advice.

 

[Coffeecomposed]

@paulears
Thank you for your reply, it makes a lot of sense. She hasn’t directly offended me, but only because I shrug it off very easily.

Some examples are; challenging others about politics (she’s very anti-Tory), making trainees feel bad when making mistakes/going slow (“you’re never going to get this!”), lots of eye rolling when asked to do something which she sees as ‘beneath’ her - eg, take recycling out (which we all do), being rude about others work “did you not learn to spell?”

I think my biggest concern is that she really doesn’t ‘get it’ when others are offended, she just laughs it off.

I should also say that she is only early 20’s, from a rather privileged background and is outspoken that she doesn’t need to work (which I don’t quite believe). This is her first real job and it shows….

In terms of losing her or the complainers… definitely her! The team members that have come to me are not the kind of people to complain without a good reason which is why I feel something needs to be done, I’d hate to lose anyone.

 

[MBE2017]

I disagree, I actually think I’m a great employer and have an amazing, very loyal team. I just don’t feel this person is right for us.

I think the point Fagin2021 was maybe trying to make, is as an employer you have failed in not getting through to her. If she doesn’t get it, your problem, reword things so she does. Apart from a small number of comments you praise her highly, I would talk to her again but leave her under no illusion you cannot accept such conduct in the future.

It’s your job to manage her, stop pussyfooting around and lay the problem bare, what you expect going forward and what she can expect if she ignores you.

 

[Coffeecomposed]

If that's the case, and you really just want to fire her, you need to work out how to do it. Are you able to legitimately make her leaving more likely. It seems a bit unfair but you just don't like her, don't like her sense of humour and don't like the sarcasm. What you should do is hold her up in a light, and document every example of when her speech style is unacceptable, and just tell her she cannot say that, every time - also of course doing it to the others if they say similar things. I think the comment on employing people is because you seem to mix up 'us' with 'you'. You are the boss. If you don't like what she does tell her it's unacceptable, don't ask her.

I think this is the way I’m going to have to go like you suggest, really stamping down on things that she says at that very moment. Now I’ve sat down and really thought about some of the comments, there are definitely some that have crossed a line.

I don’t know why but I always say “us” as a business and not “me”. I always call it ‘ours’ too even though I’m sole director. I’m sure someone could analyse that for me

 

[Coffeecomposed]

It’s your job to manage her, stop pussyfooting around and lay the problem bare, what you expect going forward and what she can expect if she ignores you.

I think, reading all this back, I am being way too soft and this comment is absolutely valid! Thank you for knocking some sense into me!

 

[SillyBill]

I think, reading all this back, I am being way too soft and this comment is absolutely valid! Thank you for knocking some sense into me!

Don't be too hard on yourself, all been there. But this is clearly bothering you and no way around it but to find a way to move her on ASAP. It'll be a weight off your shoulders once done and you'll kick yourself for not tackling it earlier. I hate this sort of thing (have to be sociopathic to like it) and had instances where I haven't liked the way I had to handle something but at the same time accepted the end would have to justify the means. I had a similar scenario once where the conclusion to the problem was to engineer a situation I knew the other party wouldn't react professionally to. So in effect I set the trap with the bait, waited and then moved the person on when predictably it happened as I expected. Not proud of it but the business was better for it at the end of it so I did my duty in a way. I'd much rather employment law allowed us to be honest with someone FWIW, ask them to leave, pay them a reasonable amount as compo, give a reference and move on, but it doesn't. Sometimes ridiculous situations develop as a result that aren't good for employer or employee. There doesn't need to be flagrant violations of Company policy or unacceptable performance for someone to need a leave a business occasionally. Sometimes it can be a simple personality clash. In a small business the overall team dynamics is so essential.

 

[Coffeecomposed]

@SillyBill Thank you for your reply, it’s really helped knowing that others find themselves in this position too and how they’ve handled it.

I totally agree that the red tape doesn’t help in this situation. In an ideal world, I’d like to sit this girl down, explain why she’s not in the right company and help her move on but it’s obviously still seen as unfair dismissal. It’s a shame really as I actually think she’d agree.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

I honestly don’t get this thread. If you want to sack her, as she doesn’t fit into the business effectively, she’s not a good employee. She may be an employee that does some good work, but she’s not good. And why would it be unfair dismissal to sack her?


I have long said, on here & elsewhere, if an employer wants to sack an employee, it’s obviously feasible & fair to do so: employers don’t sack “good” employers without a good reason – that simply makes no sense. You simply have to understand why exactly you want her sacked, and leave others ( ... maybe people that understand employment law, rather than those that think they do) to determine how to do this without it being seen as unfair dismissal.


(Or you could offer a settlement to make her go away. But no good reason to offer that now, when you could get away without offering/paying it, unless she threatens a tribunal claim.)


Karl Limpert

 

[Alan]

challenging others about politics (she’s very anti-Tory),

making trainees feel bad when making mistakes/going slow (“you’re never going to get this!”)

being rude about others work “did you not learn to spell?

 

[Bob Morgan]

@paulears
Some examples are; challenging others about politics (she’s very anti-Tory), making trainees feel bad when making mistakes/going slow (“you’re never going to get this!”), lots of eye rolling when asked to do something which she sees as ‘beneath’ her - eg, take recycling out (which we all do), being rude about others work “did you not learn to spell?” I think my biggest concern is that she really doesn’t ‘get it’ when others are offended, she just laughs it off.

She would be the 'Perfect Fit' for me!

 

[Fagin2021]

I disagree, I actually think I’m a great employer and have an amazing, very loyal team. I just don’t feel this person is right for us.

Is this the same amazing, very loyal team that you were complaining about on another thread for taking the p*** by using Covid as an excuse to bunk off every week?

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

Do you have an employee handbook?


Does it cover things related to this. Perhaps a section on respect for other employees, their capabilities, their beliefs.

Does it cover what?

If not why not?

It could be because people like me who write employment handbooks don’t tend to stretch these out to the really gullible, and include such meaningless sections. (Would employers pay extra for a completely meaningless section like this? I’ve written hundreds of handbooks! How much have I missed out on?)

Generally it sounds like a lack of respect for others.If you have solid policies and company ethos documented and in place, then you have something to give warnings over that are more concrete than 'bad fit'.

These are really not matters that a handbook is required for, and regardless, action can be taken with or without a handbook. Common sense will ensure that solid policies are not required for this quirk of an issue that is so unusual, most employers wouldn’t even consider it necessary to cover a scenario where a good employee simply doesn’t fit in.


Karl Limpert

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

'Chipping away' by making little comments which on their own mean very little are extremely damaging and draining when grouped together and persistent.
Arrive early 'Sxxx the bed this morning?'
Arrive late 'Morning'...'it was when I arrived'
'Anyone know what the time is?' 'Can't you afford a watch?'
'Would you like a cup of tea' 'Bloody hell, I thought you'd forgotten where the kettle is'

When work related between people who may not know each other well it's a death knell for team spirit. Most times these people don't actually realise what they are saying. Take the employee to one side, tell them straight and if they don't like it get rid.

 

[MBE2017]

I don’t know why but I always say “us” as a business and not “me”. I always call it ‘ours’ too even though I’m sole director. I’m sure someone could analyse that for me

I will give it a go, two reasons.

One, a good one, you are trying to make your employees feel a team, you are a small company, nothing wrong with that.

Second reason, YOU want to be their friend and or liked, better to be respected as the owner. Whether you like it or not you are the owner, the boss, and whilst you should be professional and approachable, never think you are one of the workers, because it makes situations like this so much harder to deal with.

Be straight and honest, and earn their respect, try to be friends and they always know you are the boss, but one who wants to be liked too much, a bit like a puppy waiting for you to come home. Sooner or later you will find a worker trying to take some liberties, you get much less of that if you assume your true role.

I used to let my employees know I would listen and take on board any suggestions they might have, but also state I would then make the decision as I saw fit, since it was my company, my money, and often I knew some things about the decisions they would not.

 

[lesliedocherty]

'Chipping away' by making little comments which on their own mean very little are extremely damaging and draining when grouped together and persistent.
Arrive early 'Sxxx the bed this morning?'
Arrive late 'Morning'...'it was when I arrived'
'Anyone know what the time is?' 'Can't you afford a watch?'
'Would you like a cup of tea' 'Bloody hell, I thought you'd forgotten where the kettle is'

When work related between people who may not know each other well it's a death knell for team spirit. Most times these people don't actually realise what they are saying. Take the employee to one side, tell them straight and if they don't like it get rid.

I agree, there is a huge difference between having a chat with an employee and sitting them down in an office and saying 'we need to have a serious talk here'.

I find the latter option gets the message through, whereas the first option can often be seen as just you having a casual conversation.

 

[Deleted member 335660]

I have an employee who has been with us for over two years. On paper, she’s a good employee - her work is of a good standard, she’s punctual, fun and energetic. However, she’s just not good for the company in so many ways. This has come more to light now for various reasons - perhaps confidence on her part and a change of her working team (which includes myself).

I’ve recently had 3 employees express that they have been upset by her comments and I can totally understand where they are coming from, but they are such small things (and not necessarily work related) that I don’t think they could ever come close as reason to dismiss someone. She’s very young, outspoken and opinionated which generally causes upset and there’s always a dull atmosphere when she’s around.

I know she won’t be with us forever - she’s been quite vocal that this job is a stopgap and she wants to travel which maybe explains her no-filter attitude, but it’s really dragging down the team.

I have spoke to her candidly and explained how some of her comments and general attitude comes across and she just laughed it off and said that she naturally sarcastic and people never know how to take her - she just didn’t get it.
As I say, I definitely don’t have grounds to discipline her but her values are so far from the businesses that I don’t want her in it.

Any suggestions welcome…

Perhaps a second talk with her explaining that she needs to change her behaviour as it is upsetting others might work.
Another possibility is that you get all four together and find some grounds for a way forward.

 

[paulears]

I wonder if you actually accidentally hit on the ethical/moral issue. Unfair dismissal. Is it fair to terminate somebodies employment because they are uncontrolled in what and how they speak? Free speech is still protected as long is it doesn't cross a legal line. You could build in a be polite and respectful in your dealings with customers, staff and management but I doubt you'd get a change through like that so you could then fire her.
.

 

[simon field]

Is it ever ok to sack someone just because you simply don’t like them?

Hmmm…

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Sounds to the Boss is the Boss but not a Manager. You have to learn to be a manager and manage people. You don't need any skills to be a Boss

 

[Cookie monster 00]

I would have thought that if an employee had raised with you that a colleague had been rude to them about x/y/x then that might prompt you to have a meeting with them about it - maybe an appraisal and it could be part of that?

 

[Casually made]

Would simply remind her to be professional in the workplace , maybe you need to look at the overall environment why have staff got time to openly discuss this kind of stuff when none of it has anything to do with the job ?

I don't know but i am guessing you own some sort of coffee house , so naturally very public facing and in theory busy ?

i Would pull entire team in and say customers have complained about staff having arbitrary conversations can we keep it professional on the shop floor from now on please and thankyou

 

[HFE Signs]

If you have a problem with one individual upsetting others then this is considered misconduct or even gross misconduct in some examples. You can action first stage disciplinary, if its solved then all good, if not follow the procedure.

Examples of gross misconduct as below. (see underlined)

1 dishonesty;

2 falsification of HFE Signs records;

3 violent, abusive or intimidating conduct;

4 sexual, racial or other harassment or bullying;

5 deliberate damage to company property;

6 attending work under the influence of alcohol or drugs;

7 rudeness to customers/clients or staff;

8 refusal to obey reasonable orders or gross insubordination;

9 serious negligence;

10 a serious breach of company health and safety rules;

11 any action likely to bring company into disrepute;

12 inappropriate use of company Internet and e-mail facilities;

13 providing misleading information on an application form;

14 unauthorised use or disclosure of company confidential information.

 

[SERC1204]

I've encountered people like this in the past and the excuse "it's just the way I am" is exactly that - an excuse. I've also had the anachronistic "I don't come to work to make friends" and/or "I didn't get here by being nice to people".

As others have said and you seem to be thinking yourself...

Have a clear, simple conversation with her that a) what she says/how she says things is not on and b) as an adult in a work place she needs to take control of what she says/how she says things.

If she says she is "naturally sarcastic and people never know how to take her" she's is clearly aware of her personality. What she needs to be told in a simple/professional/PC/tactful manner is that she needs to behave like an adult and that working with other people is not all about her. If it doesn't hit home and she doesn't improve, then the conversation needs to get more serious.

 

[BustersDogs]

Or she could be neurodivergent...

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Ae you allowed to say "She" that's not Non Binary

 

[Talay]

Are your other employees timid, shy, frightened little things who could be much more effective, efficient and make you more money or are they driven, passionate, producing at the top end of where you think they could be ?

I ask to offer a contrary opinion that it could be your other employees who are on a slow treadmill, set in their ways, unproductive and see this younger, fresher and possibly brasher and more aggressive person as a disrupter to their status quo.

You seen the caring type who may not be as ruthless as some and I wonder whether this is fantastic for your business or whether it has allowed your business and employees to just coast along.

Ultimately, don't worry about the law or finances and work out what is best for the company. You may get rid of her but find the next 5 great candidates are also younger, more forward thinking, more productive etc. and you will have the same old, long term employees complaining about them too.

I've made the mistake of listening too much to long term employees and I've got rid of newcomers who somehow didn't seem to fit in. It was the wrong decision.

 

[One LUX]

How long has she been employed?

 

[Stuart_Walker]

So would she be a great employee if she modified her language/attitude a bit?

If so your job as a manager is to explain in no uncertain terms what you want to see. Get her to repeat back to you what you have said, just so there are no misunderstandings and document the meeting. Make sure she sees you writing notes.

Then your job is to coach her to become the person you need for your business.

but I'd echo what Talay said above; is she seen as brash and rude simply because she's pointing out failings in your longer-term employees who have been coasting and taking you for a mug?

One of my first managers told me that when the finger of blame points out, three fingers point back and that's the ratio you should use when you are looking at staff problems. A lot of the time they are caused because you haven't made acceptable standards clear because you want to be everyone's friend or because you do the exact things that you are complaining about!

Remember that employees often ape their manager's behaviour.

 

[Ian J]

How long has she been employed?

It's in the first line of the opening post

 

[TBLZ]

her values are so far from the businesses that I don’t want her in it.

Having admitted that, I think you are on dodgy ground for dismissal. I'm no expert, of course, but, to me, it comes across as political.

 

[Hilary@Impact]

Suggest doing some research on how to give negative feedback constructively, including: Discuss in a direct and neutral manner the unacceptable behaviour, its impact on others and how this impacts negatively on the business. Then involve the employee in joint problem solving as to possible solutions, and agree a joint action plan. Don't forget to acknowledge the contributions she makes that are valued.
You are jumping the gun by focusing on your preferred solution i.e. she leaves the company. Jointly addressing ways to move forward might come up with a valid solution within the company, or she may decide for herself that she doesn't fit and would rather leave than address the behaviour. Less bad feeling all around.

 

[Brian Glendinning]

It's difficult to be able to comment without knowing the real details of the situation but team dynamics are very important and if one person is upsetting that, you could lose three or even four employees. Nobody is forced to work for you, and losing even one good staff member could be a big setback. I'm lucky, our business (now) has a great team of enthusiastic hard working staff (five) but it wasn't always so.

A year ago, we hired a member of staff who we thought would really add value to our business and even made them a non-exec director, because of their experience running their own business in the past. However, this person proved to be hugely negative for the business, they only - just about - did their job (and nothing more), did nothing as a non-exec, and was disruptive to the work environment. Their supervisor became demoralised and her own contribution dropped notably.

The subject that the staff member caused issues with were Covid conspiracy theories. Nothing to do with work. They were spoken to about it, on at least two occasions, and asked not to upset other staff with their opinions, but to no avail.

It came to a head after a succession of reviews of their work performance in other areas (when we were certain a particular issue was a mistake they had made, they then blamed other staff members or the overall organisation of the business - basically my wife and I were crap!). I was in favour of dismissing them, as they were obviously disruptive to the business (they had had their probation extended with a verbal warning), but my wife wanted to try to work through the issues.

However, the situation came to a head when there were discrepancies over stock that the staff member had been allowed to take home for their own use, when it came to light that no records had been kept by this staff member, and their lack of honesty in supplying this information to match the missing items led to their decision to resign with immediate effect, with them claiming we didn't trust them (imagine!), and then trying to make a claim for constructive dismissal, which of course failed as they hadn't been employed for long enough.

As soon as this person left - the very next week - there was a palpable change in the atmosphere at work. The supervisor's work performance improved, and all of the other staff were noticeably happier, mistakes in production dropped dramatically, and this is still the case nearly a year later.

Bottom line from me - if a staff member is disruptive to the work atmosphere, it needs fixing, or it will be a cancer that will cause real problems. Your job as the business owner is to face these problems head on, and fix them. You need of course to analyse the whole situation, but if it comes down to a staff member being disruptive, this needs addressing, obviously within the HR rules we all know (you will potentially need to justify your actions to a Tribunal, of course), but that shouldn't stop you taking firm and decisive action - all the other staff members should recognise you've had to make a tough decision and support you. If they don't, it's the wrong one.

There is no place for disruptive employees in a small business, it affects everything the business is trying to achieve. Honest, frank one to one discussions with the employee are key. And... sometimes hard decisions are needed.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

I’ve recently had 3 employees express that they have been upset by her comments and I can totally understand where they are coming from, but they are such small things (and not necessarily work related)

On reflection this topic has been running for 3 days now and we have no clue as to what these comments are, we have no examples to go on? Give us a clue please!

 

[Sweaty Sox]

It's in the first line of the opening post

None so blind than those who cannot see!