Help I've been mis sold and need out of my contract

[DMK-Media]

Need help regarding Lead Forensics i was sold a 12 month contract of a tool that told me would show me the business contact details of all the companies coming in to my site.

i have had this tool now for just under a month and it has shown me nothing even though my site is getting on average 50 new visits per day.

After phone calls going back and forth the business that comes in to my site must have a static ip address for this tool to work. I wasnt told this in the sales call when i signed up

I have a copy of the sales call here are just the main points i can pull out

from 6:00 mins:

I ask how it’s done.

He said it’s all done by the ip address

then he says the code allows us the take the ip address from the business that visits my website then they reverse that and match it with the database

so the business match is all done through IP


Not once in the whole hour does he say the business must have a static IP address


Also at 22:30

He analyses my web visitor numbers on average around 90 a week as an average.

He says working on 90 visitors a week say if I only want to work with a 3rd of them that’s 30 visitors a week that are prospects for me. And I agreed. so then he says this will turn out to 1500 prospects that Lead forensics will identify for me.


This is what opened my eyes to be able to identify that many
Still.. no mention that they had to have had a static I.P. address

im now stuck in a 12 month contract that is nearly £300 a month. and they will not let me out of the contract even after telling them by business would not be able to continue to carry on if the contract carries on and the tool continues to work like this giving me nothing

i have just come off the phone to them and in a nutshell the offer was i either pay 70% of the full term of the contract or continue with the contract

 

[Paul Norman]

I do feel sorry for you. But anyone with a basic knowledge of the online world would have spotted the scam.

Nonetheless, I do rather agree that you have been missold to. I suspect, however, that you are at the point of needing a solicitor to know how to get out of the contract - or whether that is possible.

 

[fisicx]

It does however say this on their website:

"Lead Forensics uses a small piece of code, much like Google Analytics, which tracks IP addresses visiting a website. Those IP addresses are then matched to data held by Lead Forensics, providing accurate information about unknown website visitors."

And the sales call did say they track by IP. So I think you might struggle to get out of the contract as they are delivering exactly what they say they will.

 

[gengar3]

Unless everything was explained satisfactorily, along with explanations of what IP addresses are and how their system can only track a small fraction of visitors then I would say there is a very good case for being mis-sold.

I would document in an email/letter how you feel that the service you are receiving is not what you were lead to believed you were buying. Explain that you are not technically minded and the technical aspects of the contract were not made clear.

Personally, If I truly believed I had been misled I would not pay another penny (not on a £300 contract). It would cost more in time and money for them to pursue you and they wouldn't get their costs back (plus, I believe they can only claim the profit element of a contract).

Worth having a look at the 'Unfair Contract Terms Act' to see if anything in there helps

 

[billmccallum1957]

https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/cms/public-site/trading-standards

 

[Drew2017]

Try working with them for half the term on a reduced payment plan. End of the day it is a business agreement with no cool off period so you're tied in.

 

[Newchodge]

Refuse to pay another penny unless they can guarantee what the salesman offered - 30 prospects per week, as that is what you were sold.

Explain that, until you achieve that over a 10 week period you will pay nothing further. If they achieve that rate you will pay back pay, but will continue to require that rate of prospects until the contract ends or you will discontinue payment.

 

[SamLH]

I almost bought into Lead Forensics a few months ago, I managed to find an app for less than a tenner month which does pretty much the same thing.

 

[Alan]

Last year I trialled WhoIsVisiting, A1Webstats and LeadForensics.

Lead Forensics was the only service that didn't allow you direct access during the trail, only at the end did they show you the data.

In my case, none of them provided any valuable data during the trial, in fact none of them gave me anything more than I could obtain through my self host Piwik Analytics in terms of where visitors originated.

In terms of price LeadForensics was far the most expensive.

In my situation, I probably would have gone with WhoIsVisiting (if there was any value to me), each business is different though.

How you got into a £300 / month contract without a trial or referral from someone else is a different matter. Maybe if you paid an advisor £100 for some advice it would have saved you £3,600

In terms of mis selling - I'm no lawyer, but in business transactions without consumer protection its pretty much buyer beware.

. and they will not let me out of the contract even after telling them by business would not be able to continue to carry on if the contract carries on

Then execute on what you are saying, stop paying, tell them the business is folding, thats their problem.

 

[Clinton]

@DMK-Media, I'm struggling to feel sympathy for you.

Common sense dictates that the higher the price you pay for something, the more you need to research it before committing your money. What research did you do into Lead Forensics? Did you try spending five minutes sticking their name into the search box on this forum?

Common sense also suggests that the more mission critical or life changing the matter is the more careful you need to be. You say the business will go bust if you continue with this contract. So it was a pretty big decision to commit £3,600. You jumped into that decision without reading the small print i.e. you commited to £300 without pausing to think that when multiplied by 12 it becomes £3,600, a sum that could cripple your business? Yikes!

When you were sold the contract you were told about how they identified visitors i.e. by IP. Let's return to our old friend, common sense. My five year old knows that we don't have a static IP and that each time we reboot the router, and sometimes without rebooting, our IP changes. Like it does for most users. I'll take it you know the basics about IP (because if you didn't, what the hell were you doing paying for a service based on IP?). Yet you signed up.

My advice: Suck it up. Next time don't go by what the sales person said, RTFC.

 

[Newchodge]

Does that mean a static IP address does not exist? (Just to be clear, I do not know what an IP address is, and I am a lot older than 5).

 

[MikeJ]

An IP address is the electronic address the internet (and local networks) use to identify each computer.

Static addresses do exist. A company could use a static address so their IP address is constant. However, many (most?) companies don't use them, so there's no way of tying an IP address to a company in that case.

 

[fisicx]

And a building may have a single IP address for everyone in that building - which means you can only identify the building not the business.

 

[Alan]

Hi Cyndy,

IP stands for Internet Protocol, so an IP Address is the 'address' of an internet device connection.

There are many 'static' addresses, this is required if you need to reach a specific 'device' like a website.

The issue is that visitors to a website can come from any where and many domestic, small business, and phone device connections are not given a permanent address.

Its just like the real world, except there are millions of people of 'no fixed abode'.

e.g. If you use a computer within the University of Surrey, for example, the University has a fixed IP address, so hey - that lead came from University of Surrey's fixed IP - wow what are you going to do - call the dean and say hey one of your staff, students or visitors might be interested in my product!

There are small companies that do have fixed IP addresses, it useful for things like hosting your own remote access or monitoring your alarm systems. If one of these small companies 'hits' your website, there is a possibility of guessing who might be interested in your product.

But the % are low, and so that is why it is important to trial to see if indeed there is any useful data to be gleaned from your visitor footprints.

 

[Newchodge]

Thank you all for the information.

So every visitor has an IP address, but not, necessarily, wither a unique one or a constant one. I see no mention in the description of how this system works that it needs a static address.This could, therefore, count as mis-selling.

 

[Alan]

You need to read the contract with Lead Forensics, as liability for mis selling can explicitly be excluded in business to business contracts. They may have a clause in there that states that you need to satisfy yourself that the product is suitable.

 

[ffox]

An IP address (IPv4) is made up of 4 strings of numbers like 123.123.123.123.
Each string identifies an element relating to the PC or device. The last 3 characters (rightmost)identify the actual machine the user is on. The second last 3 characters identify the sub-net (you can have a maximum of 256 machines or devices per sub-net. The first two string sets identify the domain and sub-domain. This domain information can be related back to a domain owner, which if cross referenced to an accurate DB could theoretically relate back to an individual with purchase power.
I suspect that the reference to static IP address is a little misleading as there are comparatively few of these around. The main problem arises when the site visitor uses a none corporate device to view. Most private BB providers (BT, Sky, etc.) and most mobile internet providers supply a router which issues an IP something like 192.168.1.101. The thing is that the 192.168 elements are always the same and relate back to the domain ownership of BT, or EE, or 3 Net, or some other internet access provider.
If there has been mis-selling it will centre around the fact that the DB must contain data that is useable by the buyer of the service. If it only returns data relating to corporate entities, this should have been made clear.
I suppose that it is possible that the service vendor could have distilled a method of identifying individual internet users, but I doubt it. It can be done by drilling down to the physical address of the device. But, GCHQ have problems with this so I don't think that Lead Forensics can have much of a handle on it.

 

[Clinton]

Thank you all for the information.

So every visitor has an IP address, but not, necessarily, wither a unique one or a constant one. I see no mention in the description of how this system works that it needs a static address.This could, therefore, count as mis-selling.

What LF does is a bit more than the OP has described.

For example, even if the visitor doesn't have a static IP it is often possible to identify which business they work for. IP databases are not 100% accurate but if they identify a visitor's IP as coming from a certain post code, and there is only one business registered within a certain radius of that location, there is a high probability that it was someone from that business who visited your site.

Not an exact science, but can be extremely useful when used properly.

and relate back to the domain ownership of BT, or EE, or 3 Net, or some other internet access provider

Huh?! ffox, sorry, I don't recognise much of what you say about IPs. There seems to be some mixed up information there. No time to go through it at the moment, but where did you get that from? We are talking about visitors to a website, not about configuring a router or setting up a DHCP server. Nobody's going to land on your site showing a 192.168.x.x address in your logs!

 

[Alan]

Also, I'm not sure if LF do this, but is is easy to farm company names, employee names and other data from click bait forms (e.g. download this free e-book) and get the associated IP address, even if it is dynamic it will be valid for a while.

If you drop a tracking cookie when they are on the lead form page, it is in theory then possible to track the change of dynamic ip address - or simply track the user visits. Essentially the way Google Adwords re marketing works.

 

[ffox]

Huh?! ffox, sorry, I don't recognise much of what you say about IPs.

Sorry, perhaps I should have been a little more clear.

but is is easy to farm company names, employee names and other data from click bait forms (e.g. download this free e-book) and get the associated IP address, even if it is dynamic it will be valid for a while.

The essence is this - the IP will only identify the Internet Service Provider. It requires further cross references, such as an IP/Geographical address DB, or some sort of data collector, such as 'click bait' to accurately identify who. Not something I would pay £300 per month for.

 

[Alan]

If you want post code - Cost per query for the GeoIP2 Precision Insights service:

• $0.002

Hook that up to your tracking system

Each time you get a postcode hit - check what company is there
50 visits a day = $0.10 = $3.00 a month

 

[billmccallum1957]

You may well have an option to claim Unfair Terms, assuming that the provider has not produced anything that they have said they will.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1977/50/introduction

 

[Alan]

The OP has mentioned specific contract terms, so it is of course pure speculation that there are any unfair terms indeed.

The main point is to read the contract (before signing).

 

[Andy Harris]

As an industry insider (disclaimer: my business is A1WebStats), I hope I can offer some useful insights here ...

I can sympathise with the OP - they echo what we've heard hundreds of times over recent years - people who have bought or almost bought Lead Forensics. It's easy to get sucked in by the process:

1. Someone (LF) rings up your business, offering the bright shiny thing of identifying companies that visited the website.

2. It seems like a new concept and the trial shows details of visiting companies.

3. The sales pitch is strong and often effective.

4. You haven't researched the market/worked out the pitfalls.

5. You're locked into a long contract.

We are very vocal about the whole process/business model being unethical [link removed], because it's concerning to see people get sucked into something that didn't turn out as they hoped. Yes, that may sound 'soft' but it's the way we approach business.

Yes, I'll agree with what people say here: the OP, and anyone else, would have found it prudent to research in more depth before committing to a contract. At the same time, I do have a significant problem with businesses that will sell at all costs, regardless of whether the end buyer will fully benefit. Only last week we had a conversation with someone who rang up saying they were being pushed into buying LF, and they were only getting around 240 website visitors a month. The 'companies' that they would have got out of that would have been too small to offset the costs. In our business, if we think that a trial subscriber will have less than 300 visitors a month then we actively contact them to recommend against buying unless they feel they would definitely benefit.

If you have the time to review that link above, it'll cover a few things in more detail, some of which have been discussed here:

1. The reality of IP tracking - typically you'll identify 10-30% of visitors as 'companies'.

2. What happens after identifying companies - do you have the resources/skills (internally or externally) to go deeper than just having a company name and what they looked at on your website?).

3. Are you missing the real picture? Yes, there's some value in chasing companies that visited your website, and sometimes you can gain from it (as hundreds of our subscribers do, otherwise they wouldn't continue paying), but the brutal truth is that in many cases, those visitors from companies did not favour your website/offering compared to others, which means you have the opportunity to strengthen your proposition. There's a lot more detail on this via our page [link removed].

Also, to help demystify the whole subject of how businesses like ours and others get the 'companies' data, it's basically taking aspects of IP information and making it stronger. It's worth noting that not all IP information is the same - it's beneficial to buy in various sources of data to get a good cross-section of information. There are also other methods to identify who the actual company was, that can be added on top.

But it's still just a company identified, not the individual person. People like LF offer extra (pay for) data that shows email/contact details for people within those businesses, but it has little value as there's no guarantee it was actually that person that came to the website. It requires a more intelligent approach, and is where many businesses come unstuck because the culture/skills aren't there to bridge the gap. However, from speaking personally to our own subscribers, there are many examples of businesses who do it really well, without seeming too salesy.

Here at A1 we are extremely transparent so I hope this is also useful ...

Our trial subscribers have 30 days (and support) to help make up their own minds, without any sales pitch/BS.

Of those, we (on average) get a third who go on to buy.

The other two thirds fall into these categories:

1. Realised their visitor numbers were too low to get enough companies data out of.

2. Realised their culture/skills weren't established enough to bridge the gap between company name and something of value to them.

3. Realised (via our system) that their websites weren't strong enough so went away (often to come back when stronger).

4. Went to competitors.

Number 4 above keeps us focused on ongoing improvements to the system/how we educate our trial subscribers.

Numbers 1 to 3 above allow us to sleep at night. We would much rather a trial subscriber doesn't buy (even though only committed month to month) via what our system showed them, than to feel as if we had customers that felt they'd been sold something that didn't work for them.

I hope the above is useful - happy to provide any other insights people would find useful.

 

[SamLH]

The main point is to read the contract (before signing).

I was told at Uni (Studying contract law) that verbal agreements have priority over written agreements. Doesnt this mean what was sold over the phone is what the customer should receive not what was sold in a letter?

 

[Newchodge]

I was told at Uni (Studying contract law) that verbal agreements have priority over written agreements. Doesnt this mean what was sold over the phone is what the customer should receive not what was sold in a letter?

Doesn't that depend on chronology? A verbal agreement amends a written one, if reached after the 'contract was signed'.. But a verbal agreement which is then confirmed in writing and signed by both parties, doesn't the written contract the take priority?

 

[Clinton]

I was told at Uni (Studying contract law) that verbal agreements have priority over written agreements.

They do teach the most amazing nonsense in universities these days! Priority?! I suggest you ask your lecturer for some evidence of that and if they can't provide it tell them to stop making it up as they go along.