Greek Bailout

[Davek0974]

It is this total circumvention of the democratic process that really bothers me. I think the Greeks prime ministers decision to put to his electorate the decision to stay and be rescued or leave is brilliant and brave and he has my respect for what it is worth. I only wish our own government would listen to its own people and hold a similar referendum.

If the people of Britain vote to have less ties with the EU then that is what our elected officials should respect. And if the people vote to join then us on the Nay side must respect that.

Exactly, some of our MP's did support their electorate a short while ago, about 70 of them i think, these are true MP's. The others were soundly thrashed with a three-line whip and all buckled under the strain, they should never be voted for again in local elections.This country is suffering from leadership with a worrying undertone of 'I'm alright Jack' in other words our so called leader does what he wants with full disregard for the people he is supposed to work for and represent. This is not democracy but something not dissimilar to dictatorship.

 

[RadiusBPO]

London is centre of finance for the world-it was long before the euro.

The 1980s mean anything to you?

But it is all a game and a corrupt one-the EU and the eurozone are bad news.

Sceptics were right about the ERM and they are right about the EU and the Euro.

Do you not find it funny that China are in no hurry to bail out the EU?

India, China and Brazil -that is who we should be working with.

Well China have their own issues and agenda, devaluing the USD seems to be a large part.

The UK or any other stand alone EU nation just wouldn't have the same bargaining power that the whole EU has. We want to export, we need other countries to have a low import tax so it's viable for them to import our goods. There is no way we could bargain with China or India on those as a single nation.

Why can't we continue working with the EU and build with them agreements with emerging markets?

It looks like the Franco German grip on Greece's future will tighten.

But why not? The reason they are in this mess is mass tax evasion and over spending... Their government is at fault!

 

[Mike tells it like it is]

The concept of EU I totally get. The fact that it is run, as the other poster rightly said, by unelected elite selected not by the citizen but by power struggles within that elite is simply not democracy.

Within each member country their is an electoral process. So each citizen within each country enjoys only the illusion of democracy as the overall power to make decisions about that citizens life, his pension, his laws etc are made by an unelected layer that controls his own countries democratic process.

It is this total circumvention of the democratic process that really bothers me. I think the Greeks prime ministers decision to put to his electorate the decision to stay and be rescued or leave is brilliant and brave and he has my respect for what it is worth. I only wish our own government would listen to its own people and hold a similar referendum.

If the people of Britain vote to have less ties with the EU then that is what our elected officials should respect. And if the people vote to join then us on the Nay side must respect that.

To me though it is not all about the economic up or down sides but the pure concept of what a democracy is supposed to be. What our forefathers fought wars for. Germany are the biggest drivers behind the EU and in my opinion, which may be controversial, is not so long ago they invaded other nations with guns, tanks and soldiers. Now they are doing it with bankers but effectively achieving the same thing.

We did not sign up to political union-we signe dup to a common market in the 1970s...

 

[Mike tells it like it is]

Well China have their own issues and agenda, devaluing the USD seems to be a large part.

The UK or any other stand alone EU nation just wouldn't have the same bargaining power that the whole EU has. We want to export, we need other countries to have a low import tax so it's viable for them to import our goods. There is no way we could bargain with China or India on those as a single nation.

Why can't we continue working with the EU and build with them agreements with emerging markets?

Forget the US they are not our friend-remember what they did to us after the second world war.


The commonwealth...




But why not? The reason they are in this mess is mass tax evasion and over spending... Their government is at fault!

Forget the US they are not our friend-remember what they did to us after the second world war.


The commonwealth...

 

[tony84]

Lol...this is going a bit in depth. I only wanted peoples thoughts on how we will end up.

Its one of those things, it doesnt matter whos to blame and i woud be surprised if something this big is down to just one thing.

 

[firstmarket]

Well China have their own issues and agenda, devaluing the USD seems to be a large part.

The UK or any other stand alone EU nation just wouldn't have the same bargaining power that the whole EU has. We want to export, we need other countries to have a low import tax so it's viable for them to import our goods. There is no way we could bargain with China or India on those as a single nation.

Why can't we continue working with the EU and build with them agreements with emerging markets?





But why not? The reason they are in this mess is mass tax evasion and over spending... Their government is at fault!

And by association the EU is at fault for allowing Greece to partake in the single currency initially

I don't suppose having Germany and France controlling the Greek economy is an issue if you're a fan of more centralised powers for the EU.

However, let's not be fooled into thinking that the decisions that are made in Paris and Germany are made for the benefit of the EU as a whole. They are made to protect their own interests and financial stability.

I do admire the Eurocrats for turning this crisis into an arguement for tighter european integration and more centralised powers.

 

[Mike tells it like it is]

And by association the EU is at fault for allowing Greece to partake in the single currency initially

I don't suppose having Germany and France controlling the Greek economy is an issue if you're a fan of more centralised powers for the EU.

However, let's not be fooled into thinking that the decisions that are made in Paris and Germany are made for the benefit of the EU as a whole. They are made to protect their own interests and financial stability.

I do admire the Eurocrats for turning this crisis into an arguement for tighter european integration and more centralised powers.

It was a joint fraudulent credit swap by Goldman Sachs and the EU -funny how no one is in prison for it.

Bit like the coppers who were selling to the papers -no police got arrested for it.

The EU is corrupt and self serving as hell.

 

[Parrot Hosting]

But why not? The reason they are in this mess is mass tax evasion and over spending... Their government is at fault!

Actually, no thats not completely true. Whilst it is a factor it is importantly that Greece was systematically robbed and abused in the second world war, was not compensated despite its banks being raided to fund the Nazi war machine was raped by Italy, and many of its assets stripped away by invading parties. Suffered mass genocide and was badly treated even by its supposed allies. It has a deep distrust of the EU especially as it is now being dictated to by the German overlord machine AGAIN! and its people know too well that the corruption in the government means it will be robbed blind even if they DID pay their taxes.

Give the Greek people a break, they don't deserve this. Their government is as corrupt (and not more so) than the UK government or the EU but they were seduced into the EU and now like many others I am sure want out because they can see their livelihoods (which for a large contingent is worse than those on the welfare state in the UK) being throttled whilst the corrupt leaders run off with the EU Billions. What would you have them do?

Sorry, but I live amongst these people and they are scared witless and very worried about their future so they are not going to commit to ownership by the EU without some serious changes in the balance of things. I personally hope they pullout of the EU because it will save them.

Its not so simple anywhere, especially here.

 

[firstmarket]

Actually, no thats not completely true. Whilst it is a factor it is importantly that Greece was systematically robbed and abused in the second world war, was not compensated despite its banks being raided to fund the Nazi war machine was raped by Italy, and many of its assets stripped away by invading parties. Suffered mass genocide and was badly treated even by its supposed allies. It has a deep distrust of the EU especially as it is now being dictated to by the German overlord machine AGAIN! and its people know too well that the corruption in the government means it will be robbed blind even if they DID pay their taxes.

Give the Greek people a break, they don't deserve this. Their government is as corrupt (and not more so) than the UK government or the EU but they were seduced into the EU and now like many others I am sure want out because they can see their livelihoods (which for a large contingent is worse than those on the welfare state in the UK) being throttled whilst the corrupt leaders run off with the EU Billions. What would you have them do?

Sorry, but I live amongst these people and they are scared witless and very worried about their future so they are not going to commit to ownership by the EU without some serious changes in the balance of things. I personally hope they pullout of the EU because it will save them.

Its not so simple anywhere, especially here.

A lot of countries suffered during the war. Corruption comes hand in hand with the society you live in. You don't get elected into office and then decide to become corrupt, it's something that's ingrained on a nation over time -having the power just makes it easier.

 

[Parrot Hosting]

Corruption comes hand in hand with the society you live in. You don't get elected into office and then decide to become corrupt, it's something that's ingrained on a nation over time -having the power just makes it easier.

Ahem!... yep, and the British Government is a good example.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

Before people start blaming the Greek situation on anyone other than the Greek people, I'd suggest you read the book "Boomerang" by Michael Lewis. The chapter on Greece is an eye-opener.

Steve

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Greece has always been a shambles. My one experience of doing an assignment for the Greek Government showed them to be very unprofessional. They worked very short hours, on one occasion the Greek head of Tourism left for the day at noon leaving me sitting in his office without telling me he was going. Six weeks after I had finished the assignment he sent me a letter saying I could start.

 

the greek people should do as the icelandic people did hold a referendum and vote too tell them too stuff it,they have no way out now .

http://sacsis.org.za/site/article/728.1

 

[Mike tells it like it is]

The collapse of the Euro would be fantastic news.

 

[Christine Hough]

Have a feeling Greece is like the school kid who suddenly tumbles to the fact the teacher really cannot hit him.

The whole financial system cannot cope with countries realising they can default and life still goes on. That's why every other country in the EU is putting in so much more effort than Greece.

 

[Parrot Hosting]

Have a feeling Greece is like the school kid who suddenly tumbles to the fact the teacher really cannot hit him.

The whole financial system cannot cope with countries realising they can default and life still goes on. That's why every other country in the EU is putting in so much more effort than Greece.

Oh great!!.... now the armchair 'experts' are classifying Greece as a Spoilt Brat...

 

[Christine Hough]

Never claimed to be an expert.
This is a business forum after all, not an economics experts only forum.
Never called them spoilt brats.

Just think the system is more scared of Greece defaulting than Greece is.
It looks that way when all the EU is frantically scurrying round and the Greeks are still umming and ahing about whether to accept it or go bankrupt.

 

[MH1]

The real problem facing the current system is if Greece do default, then the markets will move onto Italy, Spain etc, which will cause real problems if they collapse, Greece is relatively small compared to the potential knock on effects.

 

[Estimator]

The real problem facing the current system is if Greece do default, then the markets will move onto Italy, Spain etc,

Yes, the markets, those untouchables, who have profited and will continue to make profit out of people's misery.
We can talk about bonds, austerity, stereotypes of idle foreigners, a possible end to a united Europe and even the possibility of war, but no one ever takes these people to account. It's always shh! the market's will hear!
I am beginning to believe the stuff written by nutters on the internet, maybe these people do run the world.

 

[Jeff FV]

I saw a really interesting piece on Newsnight last night (Wed 2/11/11) that examined parallels between now and the great depression of the '30s. Here's a link to it (it should start at the start of the piece):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b016ybzv/Newsnight_02_11_2011/?t=19m26s

Jeff

 

[directmarketingadvice]

Yes, the markets, those untouchables, who have profited and will continue to make profit out of people's misery.

By "markets", are you talking about the people/organisations debtor nations wish to borrow from?

We can talk about bonds, austerity, stereotypes of idle foreigners, a possible end to a united Europe and even the possibility of war, but no one ever takes these people to account. It's always shh! the market's will hear!

If you're up to your ears in debt and wish to borrow more money, you can expect potential creditors to want to see signs you're likely to pay it back.

The more you show a willingness to pay it back, the more likely someone will lend you money... and at a lower rate of interest.

That's how lending works... and that's "the markets" you're on about.

But, if you don't agree, how do you think credit should work?

Steve

 

[captaincloser]

He won't be around on Monday.Thats his autograph book in his hand...he is history

 

[papverpoppies]

He won't be around on Monday.Thats his autograph book in his hand...he is history

No, that's their new currency, paper wipes.

Pops ~xx~

 

[Estimator]

By "markets", are you talking about the people/organisations debtor nations wish to borrow from?



If you're up to your ears in debt and wish to borrow more money, you can expect potential creditors to want to see signs you're likely to pay it back.

The more you show a willingness to pay it back, the more likely someone will lend you money... and at a lower rate of interest.

That's how lending works... and that's "the markets" you're on about.

But, if you don't agree, how do you think credit should work?

Steve

You are right Steve, i'm just going crazy with what is going on.
It is getting seriously bad
A trillion euros needed? No sweat - China has underwritten it! . China - no we didn't. Sarky & his fraulein are strutting around like the new emperors, dictating to the rest of Europe.

I am working on a film script - a musical which is a bit like Mama Mia - a tranquil island in Greece - the men fished and made wine, the women made bread and raised babies.
Everybody was happy.

Then a rowing boat came to the shore - 'Hiya, pleased to meet you , i'm Mr Goldman, this is Mr Sachs'.

It's a horror movie.

 

[Esk247]

It's a horror movie.

Does Sarkozys head spin round and round in this horror movie? It does in real life.


Me thinks Mr Tea Cosy is most enjoying his time on television. Stepping on to his little footstool he can point and make demands.

Headless chickens springs to mind.

I can't work out if China are laughing at the dumb western folk or genuinely worried about trade deals and exports to the EU. I think they're laughing, quietly, just a little bit.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

I am working on a film script - a musical which is a bit like Mama Mia - a tranquil island in Greece - the men fished and made wine, the women made bread and raised babies.
Everybody was happy.

Then a rowing boat came to the shore - 'Hiya, pleased to meet you , i'm Mr Goldman, this is Mr Sachs'.

It's a horror movie.

Only if the arrival of Messrs Goldman and Sachs in accompanied by the locals saying, "Great! This is our opportunity to take, take, take from our country - whilst doing everything we can to give as little back (in taxes) as possible".

Steve

 

[Davek0974]

I can't work out if China are laughing at the dumb western folk or genuinely worried about trade deals and exports to the EU. I think they're laughing, quietly, just a little bit.

I would think they are grinning like cheshire cats whilst laughing inside so much it hurts.

 

[Christine Hough]

Heard someone (economist/banker - can't remember who) say that he had never seen such a rapid wealth transfer going on. From the poor to the rich.

this is illuminating
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc3sKwwAaCU

 

[RedTapeDoc]

It's not going to end well ... as my old mum would say" it will end in tears"

 

[leemason]

It simply amazes me that "the markets" are still driven by the same credit rating agencies who just weeks before so many banks almost collapsed gave them AAA ratings!!! And "the markets" are see as some sort of infallible God figure that appeased with monetary or human sacrifice!

 

[papverpoppies]

Think it is interesting that all the papers say it is Germany and France who are basically controlling this.........and watch out any other Country who figures on holding a referendum.
All we do is just put money into the pot.

Democracy hey, so long as you tow the line and never question the powers that be.

Pops ~x~

 

[directmarketingadvice]

Democracy hey, so long as you tow the line and never question the powers that be.

If you get yourself in huge amounts of debt, you end up being told what to do by your creditors.

That's true for individuals, for companies, and for countries.

The Greeks could, if they choose, simply default. However, they don't seem to want to. Clearly they feel the consequences of being a defaulter is worse than the consequences of these austerity measures.

I suspect they'll change their minds in a few months' time, once the '9 year plan to recovery' looks like a busted flush - but, right now, they seem to want to give it a go.

Steve

 

[papverpoppies]

If you get yourself in huge amounts of debt, you end up being told what to do by your creditors.

That's true for individuals, for companies, and for countries.

The Greeks could, if they choose, simply default. However, they don't seem to want to. Clearly they feel the consequences of being a defaulter is worse than the consequences of these austerity measures.

I suspect they'll change their minds in a few months' time, once the '9 year plan to recovery' looks like a busted flush - but, right now, they seem to want to give it a go.

Steve

Unless of course you are a bank, and then 'we' bail them out.

Pops ~xx~

 

[Davek0974]

However, they don't seem to want to. Clearly they feel the consequences of being a defaulter is worse than the consequences of these austerity measures.
Steve

I have a feeling they are being blinded by reports and waffle, as you say, once it kicks in, its going to hurt a lot and they do like a good riot over there it seems:redface:

Bad times ahead

 

[Mike tells it like it is]

Germany and France are trying to build an empire.

 

[papverpoppies]

Germany and France are trying to build an empire.

Strange bed partners - but I agree.
We are no longer considered worthy a spent force, so enter centre stage the two pretenders to the throne........we will get shoved from pillow to post.

Pops ~xx~

 

[Mike tells it like it is]

Oh great!!.... now the armchair 'experts' are classifying Greece as a Spoilt Brat...

Lets look at your statement armchair expert...

90% of UK and European politicians have no experience of anything other than politics.

So in many cases the armchair experts may actually have more relevant experience than th so called experts.

It always amuses me the way the economics editor on the BBC is referred to as expert all he doe sis ask questions of different people and regurgitate what he is told in the dumbed down style that we have become accustomed to with the BBC.

 

[Davek0974]

Germany and France are trying to build an empire.

Yep, just wait until they really puff up their chests and start throwing the weight around.

As for the BBC, they are so biased they shouldn't even be allowed to produce political programs.

 

[Mike tells it like it is]

Yep, just wait until they really puff up their chests and start throwing the weight around.

As for the BBC, they are so biased they shouldn't even be allowed to produce political programs.

The BBC or the labour party's spin machine as I like to call them.

 

[Davek0974]

So in many cases the armchair experts may actually have more relevant experience than the so called experts.

Isn't that part of democracy - listen to the voting populous and take an informed and educated step based on that information?