Finding the right accountant

[James M 1975]

Hi all,
I am in the process of setting up a coaching, leadership and culture development business, however I’m a little stuck finding the right accountant (it’s a minefield out there). Ideally I want someone who can both advise (sole trader/ltd company, invoicing etc), will submit end of year tax returns, has the correct accreditation and insurances etc, is easily contactable, has experience in my industry and ideally charges a fixed fee. If someone is able to point me in the right direction or is aware of someone/a company that fits the bill then it would be very much appreciated.
Many thanks in advance
James

 

[mattk]

Go and meet with a few. Most will give you a free initial consultancy where they'll talk you through company structure, tax, drawing money and anything else you might want to ask.

Then go with the one you have the best rapport with.

 

[Ian J]

Ideally I want someone who has experience in my industry

Why?

Industry experience is hardly relevant for an accountant who is basically interested in numbers and not the product.

I can assure you that my accountant had no experience of the factoring industry which I didn't mind as I wasn't after factoring experience

 

[gpietersz]

The first question is whether you want someone you can meet face to face, or would you happy to work with them entirely remotely?

If the first, it has to be someone local, narrows the options. You can probably get some recommendations.

Remote only? There are some people on here. You might find someone on places like freelancing websites.

Check that anyone you use is a real accountant (anyone can call themselves one). They should be a member of an appropriate body (most likely ICAEW or ACCA) both of which have lists of member in public practice.

Checking websites might sound a bit paranoid, but the last time the subject came up here we had someone who had been let down badly by an accountant, who did not know whether the accountant was a professional body, and one of the accountants here said that they had come across people falsely claiming to be members of a professional body.

Industry experience is hardly relevant for an accountant who is basically interested in numbers and not the product.

A bit off topic as its not true for the OP, but there are exceptions - very rare for UK SMEs to have those sorts of issues.

 

[Stas Lawicki]

A mine field it is. I've had a couple - one was a partner from a big London firm and he was hopeless. Another from a not so big firm charged a fortune and cocked up and number of my wife's returns (which were totally unnecessary and consequently meant her tax situation become extremely complicated and we needed up with a big bill). My current one I shopped around for. Met a few local folk in my town, discussed the usual and how they work etc. Asked some questions about particular scenarios and I've found a great little firm who are good value, easy to get hold of the one or two times a year I need them and nice to deal with.

I would speak to a few and work out who you might get on with. Ask your mates for a recommendation too if you can.

 

[faradaykeynes]

Feel free to call me if you like, when you say advise both (sole trader/ltd company), I hope you are looking to take one route and not run both together, same trade same resources, HMRC wont be happy about it

 

[UK Contractor Accountant]

I think you mean should you set up as sole trader or a Ltd company?

Its a common question for someone setting up a business but the general advice is initially trade as a sole trader and then transfer to a Ltd company once the business has a firm footing and generating a reasonable profit level.

In any case discuss with your appointed accountant & taxation advisor. As above the Accountancy Professional Bodies websites will have a list of firms which you can search.

Generally recommendations is the way to go when looking for an Accountancy Practice.

There a few of us on here who regularly contribute and provide good a advice.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

The time you need a accountant is when the local one is only ten mins away and if they dont answer the phone you can go around and get it sorted,

Online ones come in all varieties some good some bad all probably cheaper

I always found the local accountants who were chartered filled my needs and a few quid extra was worth while, they also had contacts in the local area who they might give a introduction to without disclosing anything about them

 

[Philip Hoyle]

Online ones come in all varieties some good some bad all probably cheaper

Costs vary enormously. I've seen some pretty steep bills from book-keepers and unqualified accountants that are far higher than an average fully qualified local sole trader accountant would charge. So, I don't think you can say all online ones would be cheaper.

But I also don't think there's any distinction any more between "local" versus "online". Most "local" firms will now also offer online software support, email communications, secure portals for document exchange/approval etc. I think you'll find most "local" firms offer the same as online firms, with the added benefit of being "local" in the rare occurrence you do need a meeting for anything.

 

[Rawlinson Pryde]

One thing I would ask is if the firm does all of it’s work in the UK. There seems to be a growing trend to send it off to Asia for cheap labour but still charge normal prices.

 

[gpietersz]

There seems to be a growing trend to send it off to Asia for cheap labour but still charge normal prices.

Good point. Someone told me about their accounting doing that not long ago.

Does it matter, as long as someone qualified in the UK is taking responsibility? Is it any different from partner getting juniors or people with lower level qualifications to do the work?

 

[Deleted member 59730]

While it might be reassuring to have an accountant who is a member of a trade body that is no protection for you if they are no good. My local newspaper frequently has stories of accountants ending up in court with fraud charges. I will always use someone locally I can interview face to face.

 

[Rawlinson Pryde]

Good point. Someone told me about their accounting doing that not long ago.

Does it matter, as long as someone qualified in the UK is taking responsibility? Is it any different from partner getting juniors or people with lower level qualifications to do the work?

True, however it may be more likely that there are language or understanding issues not being in the same country, not to mention you may not know if the sub-contracted staff are being trained to a satisfactory standard, as you have less control and knowledge of over them. I also think that there are GDPR issues if you are not communicating if you are not using your firm to carry out the work.

I think these firms should be transparent as if you think you offer the same service as a totally UK based business then what have you got to hide.

We as a firm think it is better for the client to be able to interact with all members of the team that look after them (at varying levels) and can see the face of the person they interact with, even if they do not necessarily meet them.

 

[SteveHa]

Check that anyone you use is a real accountant (anyone can call themselves one). They should be a member of an appropriate body (most likely ICAEW or ACCA) both of which have lists of member in public practice.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Membership of a PB is not necessarily a sign of competence. You only have to read through the ICAEW disciplinary reports to see that.

And, of course, many very competent accountants resign membership of their PB, seeing them as offering little value.

 

[Rawlinson Pryde]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Membership of a PB is not necessarily a sign of competence. You only have to read through the ICAEW disciplinary reports to see that.

And, of course, many very competent accountants resign membership of their PB, seeing them as offering little value.

Yes a very tiny percentage. Also you know that there are some standards and repercussions.

There is nothing that guarantees competence, but at least holding a qualification guarantees some form of training has been undertaken and they should have undertaken their CPD.

Someone without a qualification doesn’t really show any form of competence.

 

[Ian J]

We as a firm think it is better for the client to be able to interact with all members of the team that look after them (at varying levels) and can see the face of the person they interact with, even if they do not necessarily meet them.

Understandable as turkeys rarely vote for Christmas

 

[Khushal Joshi]

Hi James M,

Hope you are well. Picking the right accountant is always a tough choice and you never really know what they're like until you start working with them.

I have an Accountancy practice and work with a lot of small businesses.

I'd be happy to have a no obligations call with you to chat through your scenario.

Thanks

Khushal
Effective Accounting Ltd

 

[gpietersz]

Yes a very tiny percentage. Also you know that there are some standards and repercussions.

There is nothing that guarantees competence, but at least holding a qualification guarantees some form of training has been undertaken and they should have undertaken their CPD.

Someone without a qualification doesn’t really show any form of competence.

I agree. Some evidence of competence vs none. I would definitely avoid an unqualified accountant.

They need to do their CPD to keep their practising certificate, right?

 

[Chris Ashdown]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Membership of a PB is not necessarily a sign of competence. You only have to read through the ICAEW disciplinary reports to see that.

And, of course, many very competent accountants resign membership of their PB, seeing them as offering little value.

Naturally the non accredited members who screw up are never recorded so how do you compare the two numbers. you're reports how failures are in a highly regulated environment, so presumably in a totally unregulated area the reports if they existed would be far higher

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

Why?

Industry experience is hardly relevant for an accountant who is basically interested in numbers and not the product.

I can assure you that my accountant had no experience of the factoring industry which I didn't mind as I wasn't after factoring experience

Industry experience can actually be incredibly important, in fact I'd say essential for some trades and professions, and it's why you'll see accountants who specialise in looking after the tax and accounting affairs of certain professions. Often it'll be professions that have specific accounting requirements or who are subject to special tax rules.

It can also be very useful to understand the clients business as some will for example use and need industry specific accounting software.

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

Hi all,
I am in the process of setting up a coaching, leadership and culture development business, however I’m a little stuck finding the right accountant (it’s a minefield out there). Ideally I want someone who can both advise (sole trader/ltd company, invoicing etc), will submit end of year tax returns, has the correct accreditation and insurances etc, is easily contactable, has experience in my industry and ideally charges a fixed fee. If someone is able to point me in the right direction or is aware of someone/a company that fits the bill then it would be very much appreciated.
Many thanks in advance
James

Your checklist so far really should cover any decent accountant but do ask any accountant you contact to be sure.

My advice is to decide how you want to work ie do you want a face to face relationship with an accountant or are you happy working online only, or do you want a mix of both. Once you've decided that contact a few accountants and see which you feel you'd like to work with.

 

[gpietersz]

I'd say essential for some trades and professions,

Out of curiosity, can you give me some examples. Banking and insurance are the obvious ones to me. ONn the other hand my experience (apart from trivialities like a little small business bookkeeping) is of looking at accounts, not preparing them.

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

Out of curiosity, can you give me some examples. Banking and insurance are the obvious ones to me. ONn the other hand my experience (apart from trivialities like a little small business bookkeeping) is of looking at accounts, not preparing them.

Yes agriculture is one very good one. I spent 10 years specialising in agricultural accounting and tax - the industry has unique tax rules such as farmers averaging relief. Dental and medical is another.

To a lesser degree you'll find some businesses only use certain accounts for example I look after the accounts and tax for a lot of online businesses so am very familiar with accounting for PayPal, Stripe, and Amazon etc and you'll find some accountants barely ever deal with clients who use them so wont know what to look for when preparing the accounts or how to help a client account for them and select suitable bookkeeping software.

 

[UK Contractor Accountant]

Out of curiosity, can you give me some examples. Banking and insurance are the obvious ones to me.

Property owners and agents

• Residential property management companies
• Travel and tourism
• Franchising
• Academies, Schools and Education
• Medical professions
• Legal professions
• Entertainment
• IT industry & Contractors (IR35)

 

[SteveHa]

To address the points regarding PB membership, I am neither trained by, nor a member of any PB (the company I work for is, however, ICAEW regulated - I personally am not).

I specialise in tax, and my qualifications for doing so are 20 years employment with HMRC, and 20 years in practice.

I keep CPD up to date, and I know my limits (something that many qualifieds don't believe they have, despite evidence to the contrary).

Sweeping statements that only qualified by a PB accountants are good accountants is not just plain wrong, but also highly insulting.

 

[gpietersz]

Property owners and agents

• Residential property management companies
• Travel and tourism
• Franchising
• Academies, Schools and Education
• Medical professions
• Legal professions
• Entertainment
• IT industry & Contractors (IR35)

Why? What is so special about the accounting needs of franchising, for example? How are doctors or lawyers accounts different from any other service business? I know lawyers may have some additional complexities when dealing with client money but is that much of an issue or is there something else?

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Why? What is so special about the accounting needs of franchising, for example? How are doctors or lawyers accounts different from any other service business? I know lawyers may have some additional complexities when dealing with client money but is that much of an issue or is there something else?

The accounts might not be different but the loopholes and rules are. Barristers can spread earnings well into their retirement for instance. Farmers can have 'bad' years but creative freelancers cannot.

 

[gpietersz]

The accounts might not be different but the loopholes and rules are.

So, mostly to do with tax rules?

 

[SteveHa]

For Doctors there are pensions considerations, too (particularly GPs in practice) which are outside of the norm.

 

[gpietersz]

I am neither trained by, nor a member of any PB (the company I work for is, however, ICAEW regulated - I personally am not)

So you are in fact included in the advice to stick to firms authorised for public practice by the professional bodies?

 

[SteveHa]

My point was, even though the firm is regulated, no-one has any evidence that I have the appropriate credentials personally to do what I do, other than 40 years of experience.

And I have worked for unregulated firms in the past. That didn't change either my ability or my ethics.

 

[Deleted member 315707]

Why? What is so special about the accounting needs of franchising, for example?

If you need to ask the question you have no experience in franchising so maybe not make sweeping statements that you don't have knowledge about..

 

[gpietersz]

My point was, even though the firm is regulated, no-one has any evidence that I have the appropriate credentials

Yes, but the firm is responsible for your work - there is someone the professional body can punish.

other than 40 years of experience.

Fine for someone who can verify your abilities (like the firm you currently work for).

And I have worked for unregulated firms in the past. That didn't change either my ability or my ethics.

No, but it did change how accountable the firm the customer used to hire you is.

 

[gpietersz]

If you need to ask the question you have no experience in franchising so maybe not make sweeping statements that you don't have knowledge about..

What sweeping statement? I asked a question because I want to know the answer. That is about as far from a sweeping statement as you can get.

 

[Ian J]

If you need to ask the question you have no experience in franchising so maybe not make sweeping statements that you don't have knowledge about..

You might want to think about changing your user name

 

[Deleted member 315707]

You might want to think about changing your user name

Gladly - how?

 

[Deleted member 315707]

What sweeping statement?

A question can be rhetorically asked to imply a statement.. but who cares, ask a franchising specialist accountant and find out for yourself. https://www.thebfa.org/affiliate-directory/ filter by accountancy.

 

[Rawlinson Pryde]

My point was, even though the firm is regulated, no-one has any evidence that I have the appropriate credentials personally to do what I do, other than 40 years of experience.

And I have worked for unregulated firms in the past. That didn't change either my ability or my ethics.

However your firm is regulated, the firm who employ you put their name at risk (In the press and the bodies) and their professional indemnity (PI) insurance, so I am sure they therefore ensure the proper safeguards are taken with your training (paying for courses and resources) and CPD requirements. You also have the network of other people in your firm with differing experience.

You will rarely hear about an unregulated firm being in trouble but that is because they are unregulated so other than a criminal activity there is no reporting. They may also not have the PI cover.

When we pick up new work from other firms we generally find that those who are not with a regulated firm contain way more issues than a regulated firm.

For example recently a picked up from an unregulated firm that hadn’t done P11Ds for a health benefit, when queried with them, they said they were not aware of it, despite having a separate line on the profit and loss. They couldn’t produce a fixed asset schedule or other trivial items.

Some of the unregulated firms are also formed after a regulated person has been struck off from their professional bodies for their criminal or dodgy practices.

 

[SteveHa]

When we pick up new work from other firms we generally find that those who are not with a regulated firm contain way more issues than a regulated firm.

I agree it happens, much like the new client we picked up from an ICAEW firm that had been handled so bad we are still trying to sort it out.

As I said, regulated is not the gold standard for competent.

 

[KAC]

To address the points regarding PB membership, I am neither trained by, nor a member of any PB (the company I work for is, however, ICAEW regulated - I personally am not).

I specialise in tax, and my qualifications for doing so are 20 years employment with HMRC, and 20 years in practice.

I keep CPD up to date, and I know my limits (something that many qualifieds don't believe they have, despite evidence to the contrary).

Sweeping statements that only qualified by a PB accountants are good accountants is not just plain wrong, but also highly insulting.

Your work is effectively regulated by a PB as the partners/directors of the firm that employs you are regulated and take responsibility for the work you carry out. This provides the clients with the comfort that the firm will have PI and satisfy professional standards